Question on "Full Perms" items

[Love Zhaoying]

One of the "proof of concepts" I am planning for my new system is a game, like an old-school "text adventure" but with an option of "doing the stuff" instead of just typing. 

With torches, swords, and stuff.  So anyway, I went looking, and there are plenty of Full Perm torches, swords, etc. on the Marketplace.  Sculpties seems an easy way to go; I can can just plop a texture on a prim and boom, it's a torch/sword/etc.

Here's my questions so far, I'm such a noob! (Happy 16th Rez Day to me!)

1. If I have the system rez an item with the Full Perm texture; and if I make it a Multi-player system - where not just the owner playing gets a copy of the item/texture, but anyone they play with gets a copy of the item/texture - am I following the general "Full Perm" rules?  

2. Assuming that I can script the items so users can't get the Full Perm texture UUID; so they can't resell it themselves or use it for building - does this help ensure I am following the rules?

3. If the system gives "secondary" players (not the owner, who they are playing with) the item with the Full Perm texture, is it possible to preserve the required Full Perm Trans rights so the "secondary" players cannot make copies / give the item to someone else? (For example, either by setting the "next owner rights", or scripting the item to self-destruct on additional owner changes.)

Example restriction from one Marketplace ad (some other sellers don't spell it out so explicitly):

Quote

- It is NOT allowed to resell or give away these textures / sculptie maps / meshes as they are!

- It is NOT allowed to add these textures / sculptie maps / meshes to a business box!

- You are only allowed to use these textures / sculptie maps / meshes in your creations and sell your creations either with "Copy / No Transfer" or "No Copy / Transfer" enabled but NOT with "Copy / Transfer" enabled at the same time!

Any violation of this license will result in an immediate DMCA report!

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but I could not find a suitable one.

Thanks in advance for your consideration of assistance!

Thanks,

Love

Edited January 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Lindal Kidd]

Can't you make the item either No Copy or No Transfer and have your system give out those items to players? Making them full perm (both Copy AND Transfer) is against the texture seller's restrictions.

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, Lindal Kidd said:

Can't you make the item either No Copy or No Transfer and have your system give out those items to players? Making them full perm (both Copy AND Transfer) is against the texture seller's restrictions.

Since the system needs to make multiple copies per player (each time they play), does that still work with "no copy"? Otherwise, this sounds good.

For "No Transfer", since the "owner's" system will have to "give" the other player a.."copy" (ugh, if that's the right word), is that "Transfer" or not?

[Rick Nightingale]

The sculpty texture doesn't get given with the object it's applied to as such, but it is visible (as a thumbnail) if you set the object perms to modify. Just like you can view a thumbnail of a diffuse texture without having the full texture yourself. That's not an issue because the next owner still doesn't have access to the full scale texture, and you are allowed to give things with mod perms as per the terms.

In short - don't be concerned about the sculpty texture once it's applied to something. Just don't give the texture itself away (there's no need to).

Set you objects to next owner No-Transfer as usual, and probably No-Modify too so they can't fiddle and try to exploit anything.

If you are using a script to change the sculpty map on the item, again no problem as long as the script is no-mod so the user cannot see the UUIDs inside it.

Are you attaching these automatically to the next user? You could use llAttachToAvatarTemp(), then when they detach it, it's gone forever. Unless you need them to have the item in inventory of course.

 

[Rick Nightingale]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Since the system needs to make multiple copies per player (each time they play), does that still work with "no copy"? Otherwise, this sounds good.

For "No Transfer", since the "owner's" system will have to "give" the other player a.."copy" (ugh, if that's the right word), is that "Transfer" or not?

Remember, these permissions you set apply to the Next Owner, not to you or your objects that give them out. For you and your devices, it is still full perms. So no problem setting them as restrictive as you want for the next owner - they can still be given.

Edit: You can set an object with no permissions (for next owner) - just set the object itself No-Copy and No-Modify, then have an item in inventory (an existing script will do) set to No-Modify, No-Transfer. The object as a whole will then be NC,NM,NT.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Rick Nightingale]

A couple more, potentially useful thoughts:

You could make an item No-Copy, No-Mod, but Transferable, and have it as part of your game that it needs to be given back to something else of yours. To do that would require Ctrl-dragging from their inventory to your object which has been drop-enabled by a script. Personally though, I hate the Ctrl-drag method; it's quite awkward.

You (yourself) must be the owner for all of this. You could not 'sell' the game system to another owner, because they would need full perms copies of the objects to be able to give them out themselves. That would be breaking the terms of course.

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

Set you objects to next owner No-Transfer as usual, and probably No-Modify too so they can't fiddle and try to exploit anything.

See question below - Would that prevent the "system" giving out the objects to other game players than the "next owner" (who "owns" my system)?

13 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

If you are using a script to change the sculpty map on the item, again no problem as long as the script is no-mod so the user cannot see the UUIDs inside it.

Understood.

14 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

Are you attaching these automatically to the next user? You could use llAttachToAvatarTemp(), then when they detach it, it's gone forever. Unless you need them to have the item in inventory of course.

Maybe, sometimes. Other times, if in a "rez zone" the system could Rez the object and say "oh look, you found a torch/sword" then the owner can take and wear/use it.

13 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

Remember, these permissions you set apply to the Next Owner, not to you or your objects that give them out. For you and your devices, it is still full perms. So no problem setting them as restrictive as you want for the next owner - they can still be given.

 

So..not my "system" but the objects that are being given.  That does confuse me.. I thought this clarified my first question!

(As I see you've responded again and I click "Submit"..)

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

A couple more, potentially useful thoughts:

You could make an item No-Copy, No-Mod, but Transferable, and have it as part of your game that it needs to be given back to something else of yours. To do that would require Ctrl-dragging from their inventory to your object which has been drop-enabled by a script. Personally though, I hate the Ctrl-drag method; it's quite awkward.

You (yourself) must be the owner for all of this. You could not 'sell' the game system to another owner, because they would need full perms copies of the objects to be able to give them out themselves. That would be breaking the terms of course.

I think this model does not match my use-case: to "sell" or give/rent/let others "own" the system so they can have it to play with other users.

 

[Rick Nightingale]

Is that what you were thinking... that you could sell/give the game to others?

Yeah... big problem there with the TOS on your full perm objects/textures then. Items that will be given to 'players' must be supplied with full perms for the game 'owner', then the new owner would set them to next-owner no transfer etc. as part of the initial game setup.

I've done sort of similar things, with the twisted protocubes I developed. Because they are beedable and transferable pets, they need unusual permissions and I had the script do a lot of work preventing exploitation of the unusually permissive perms. I also had a creators' pack that could be given to another owner of the entire system, which needed everything to be full perms for them otherwise they could not create new transferable pets themselves. The first thing they had to do was set the perms on some of the items more restrictive.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

Yeah... big problem there with the TOS on your full perm objects/textures then. Items that will be given to 'players' must be supplied with full perms for the game 'owner', then the new owner would set them to next-owner no transfer etc. as part of the initial game setup.

But as you pointed out, if I designed it correctly, the users could not reuse / resell the textures themselves (their copy of the system could only give out objects that USED the textures).. does that fix the issue?

[Rick Nightingale]

No, because the terms of the FP item you have (sculpt texture, whatever) say you cannot give them (or items made with them) to another person with full permissions.

It's this part:

Quote

- You are only allowed to use these textures / sculptie maps / meshes in your creations and sell your creations either with "Copy / No Transfer" or "No Copy / Transfer" enabled but NOT with "Copy / Transfer" enabled at the same time!

In order to give your game system to someone else, the objects that would be given to players must be given to the new owner as full permissions (they don't acually need mod perms) - they must have right to copy and transfer them as the owner.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

No, because the terms of the FP item you have (sculpt texture, whatever) say you cannot give them (or items made with them) to another person with full permissions.

It's this part:

Quote

- You are only allowed to use these textures / sculptie maps / meshes in your creations and sell your creations either with "Copy / No Transfer" or "No Copy / Transfer" enabled but NOT with "Copy / Transfer" enabled at the same time!

In order to give your game system to someone else, the objects that would be given to players must be given to the new owner as full permissions (they don't acually need mod perms) - they must have right to copy and transfer them as the owner.

Edited 4 minutes ago by Rick Daylight

So, then I would have to either purchase "Full Perm" textures / items that have less restrictions - or pay someone to create textures / items for me that I can use as I need.  Does that sound right?  (With the understanding that "No Mod" is OK if they are textures, etc.)

 

[Rick Nightingale]

Yeah, you would have to contact the seller and negotiate that. You might find something that's just being given freely with no terms, there is some stuff around like that, then you can do what you want with it.*

Or, as you say have them made for you with you having full rights over what you do with them.

*one of my products (very old) is a set of weights with built in bodybuilding animations. The animations were completely free, full perms, with no terms. Technically I could sell them if I wanted, but I don't. It's a freebie (and I make it clear that the animations were free to me).

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Love Zhaoying]

Another option (of many) is to give my "system" away, but sell the "modules" (games/programs), etc. and/or have some of them be free.

[Rick Nightingale]

However you 'give' them to new owners, you still have the issue of needing to provide full perms items to the new owner for anything that the game needs to give out to players. Whether you provide them free or paid is irrelevent. (in fact some terms say you cannot give an item for free that has used their thing).

There is one way around it, although a bit cumbersome...

Provide 'refill' packs of the consumable items (those that need to be given out) to the game owners. They can refill the giver with them. You could provide 100 no-copy, transferable objects and it would not be breaking the TOS. or 1000. As long as they are transfer but no-copy.

When dropped into the giver, they would get a numeric suffix (sword1, sword2, ...) so the script would have to be aware of that when it tries to give something. It could be done.

Those refill packs could be a source of income...

[Love Zhaoying]

6 hours ago, Rick Daylight said:

However you 'give' them to new owners, you still have the issue of needing to provide full perms items to the new owner for anything that the game needs to give out to players. Whether you provide them free or paid is irrelevent. (in fact some terms say you cannot give an item for free that has used their thing).

But still - technically, the textures themselves are NOT being given full perm..(sticking with the original question about textures for sculpts). 

Can't the objects using the textures be set so that the new "system owner" can give copies of the objects to others, but those others can't copy or transfer them to anyone else?

[Rick Nightingale]

For the next System Owner to be able to distribute copies of the sculpt object that you made with the texture, you must give the object to the new System Owner with Copy/Transfer permissions. There is no other way. The texture itself is irrelevant here.

Doing the above goes against the part of the terms I quoted earlier. That part refers to objects made with the sculpt texture, not the texture itself.

You're trying to wriggle around it (and I understand)... but there's really no way to even from those quite simple terms you quoted.

 

 

[Love Zhaoying]

6 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

That part refers to objects made with the sculpt texture, not the texture itself.

I missed or forgot that part!

7 minutes ago, Rick Daylight said:

You're trying to wriggle around it (and I understand)... but there's really no way to even from those quite simple terms you quoted.

Not really trying to wiggle around, I just have "low comprehension" as usual. Really!!

 

[Rick Nightingale]

OK... there are some ways you can do this:

1. Negotiate different terms with the sculpt map seller to allow what you want.
2. Make or commission you own objects to use.
3. Find something that is what you want but is sold with no T&C... unlikely, but there is some stuff like that on the MP. Check out AleyMart for instance (not no T&C, but close).
4. Use the Trans/NoCopy refill option I mentioned above; you can sell as many as you want like that without breaking the T&C. Load the original up with 5000 of them.
5. Have a giver 'thing' owned by you that you rez on the new owner's land... the game will tell your object to give items directly to the players.
6. Have a giver rezzed on your land, that the games communicate with by email or an external webserver. Your giver gives out the objects directly to the players.

Option 5 is very reliable given that it only needs standard scripting and messaging, but is an outright pain having to rez on someone else's land. Really, it's a no-go unless you know and trust each other. Option 6 is slightly annoying but circumvents that  problem. Email is throttled to wait a while between each one, and the other way requires you to maintain an external server, program it, and relies on the good old internet to work properly.

I would start with options 1, 2 and 3 and see if I can solve it with those.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rick Daylight

[Love Zhaoying]

I have also considered that the Library has torches and swords - for "starting out" purposes. (Or, I could give someone a wooden prim and tell them "this is a sword/torch".)

 

[Rick Nightingale]

Oh yes - I forgot we even have a library. That Celtic sword's not bad. It comes out as full perms too. Yep - add that as an option!

[Love Zhaoying]

The general concept here is, in addition to the option of Text vs. "actually doing things", I can add on different levels of "benefits" for holding the torch/sword:

- Even if you are just playing the "text" version, holding the item could increase the HP / effectiveness of the item.

- Etc. (Use your imagination!)

[EliseAnne85]

14 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

One of the "proof of concepts" I am planning for my new system is a game, like an old-school "text adventure" but with an option of "doing the stuff" instead of just typing. 

With torches, swords, and stuff.  So anyway, I went looking, and there are plenty of Full Perm torches, swords, etc. on the Marketplace.  Sculpties seems an easy way to go; I can can just plop a texture on a prim and boom, it's a torch/sword/etc.

Here's my questions so far, I'm such a noob! (Happy 16th Rez Day to me!)

1. If I have the system rez an item with the Full Perm texture; and if I make it a Multi-player system - where not just the owner playing gets a copy of the item/texture, but anyone they play with gets a copy of the item/texture - am I following the general "Full Perm" rules?  

2. Assuming that I can script the items so users can't get the Full Perm texture UUID; so they can't resell it themselves or use it for building - does this help ensure I am following the rules?

3. If the system gives "secondary" players (not the owner, who they are playing with) the item with the Full Perm texture, is it possible to preserve the required Full Perm Trans rights so the "secondary" players cannot make copies / give the item to someone else? (For example, either by setting the "next owner rights", or scripting the item to self-destruct on additional owner changes.)

Example restriction from one Marketplace ad (some other sellers don't spell it out so explicitly):

Sorry if this is in the wrong section, but I could not find a suitable one.

Thanks in advance for your consideration of assistance!

Thanks,

Love

I don't know how to do multi-quotes.  Someone sent me how and it seemed complicated to me.  But, I wanted to address several part of your post.

  * First, sculpty knifes and swords.  I needed an item recently for an outfit and used a sculpty and it took a long time for the sculpty to appear as a worn item.  I sat for awhile looking at my avatar and going "okay........................where is it...........................................?"  And, then after awhile, it finally appeared.  So, I'm assuming the *worn* item I had was a delayed rez and I'm not sure why.  I'd say make one sculpty knife for yourself first and see how long it takes to appear, worn on your avatar.  However, the more you wear the sculpty item, the faster it begins to appear the 2nd, 3th, 4th time and so on and so on. Would it seem odd to you that a player gets a knife and then has to wait for it to appear?  You may be better off with mesh weapons.  If I were you, I'd try both sculpty and mesh full perm items for appearance sake and see how that goes for you.  Meaning, is your sculpty rezzing faster than for me?  I'd have no idea if I have a techno problem for fast rez for sculpties or not.  Computers, overall, to me, are weird.  

 * Next, full perm items.  THIS >  It is NOT allowed to resell or give away these textures / sculptie maps / meshes as they are! 

The above says what it says not for UUID'S imo because when we buy a full perm item and sell it as is it is just selling a copy of what is already made, so it's not the UUID.  The creator wants you or me to make it into something else that's why they say don't sell as they are because as they are already exists.  

I think you'd be better off buying a full perm mesh weapon and making the texture yourself.  Weapons only have a few places that need a texture.  It shouldn't be too hard to make a decent texture.  Did you ever make a texture before?  I'm guessing not.  Gimp is free and you could ask in Builder's Brewery and Happy Hippo groups how to make a new texture for a mesh item.

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

3 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

okay........................where is it...........................................?"  And, then after awhile, it finally appeared.  So, I'm assuming the *worn* item I had was a delayed rez and I'm not sure why.  I'd say make one sculpty knife for yourself first and see how long it takes to appear, worn on your avatar. 

Sculpts take awhile to properly Rez sometimes. Historically, they would initially appear as a spherical object then finally "resolve" into the proper shape.

4 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I think you'd be better off buying a full perm mesh weapon and making the texture yourself.  Weapons only have a few places that need a texture.  It shouldn't be too hard to make a decent texture.  Did you ever make a texture before?  I'm guessing not.  Gimp is free and you could ask in Builder' Brewery and Happy Hippo groups how to make a new texture for a mesh item.

I am not interested in learning mesh or texturing, sorry. I'm a scripter. But thanks! (I've had GIMP about 12 years for my job, so I'm aware of it.)

[EliseAnne85]

5 hours ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not really trying to wiggle around, I just have "low comprehension" as usual. Really!!

Yeah, you are a bit.  LOL  I'm trying to impress upon you that when it says do not give out or sell items as is including textures doesn't have anything to do with whether you are giving them out full perm or not.  It says do not resell as is because the item already exists as is and  you are in effect just reselling copies of their item because it's not changed, but in your case it's scripted so it is changing it a bit.  The best thing, imo, is to contact the creator of the item and tell them you want to use it textured as is for a scripted game and see what they say, or ask in Builder's Brewery or Happy Hippo's group chat if anyone would make a mesh/textured item/s for your game and they get a percentage of the profits.