Question on "Full Perms" items

[Love Zhaoying]

10 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Yeah, you are a bit.  LOL  I'm trying to impress upon you that when it says do not give out or sell items as is including textures doesn't have anything to do with whether you are giving them out full perm or not.  It says do not resell as is because the item already exists as is and  you are in effect just reselling copies of their item because it's not changed, but in your case it's scripted so it is changing it a bit.  The best thing, imo, is to contact the creator of the item and tell them you want to use it textured as is for a scripted game and see what they say, or ask in Builder's Brewery or Happy Hippo's group chat if anyone would make a mesh/textured item/s for your game and they get a percentage of the profits.  

I am 110% sure that "as is" means just the textures themselves. It's the rest of the statement that I missed.

Thanks for your advice!

[Wulfie Reanimator]

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- You are only allowed to use these textures / sculptie maps / meshes in your creations and sell your creations either with "Copy / No Transfer" or "No Copy / Transfer" enabled but NOT with "Copy / Transfer" enabled at the same time!

This one is the most important restriction, since it specifies which permissions you're allowed to give to the next owner.

No-modify isn't enough, it must be no-transfer or no-copy. This can make it difficult to pass copies to other players, because the transfer-chain would be You -> Owner (new perms) -> Others.

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- It is NOT allowed to resell or give away these textures / sculptie maps / meshes as they are!

This one is pretty simple. You can't give out the full-perm item with full perms to the next owner.

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- It is NOT allowed to add these textures / sculptie maps / meshes to a business box!

I'm not sure what a "business box" is.

 

In the case of textures / sculptie maps, if you've applied a texture to a prim, that prim can given out with copy and transfer, and this would work for your game. You just can't give out the map itself.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Wulfie Reanimator

[Love Zhaoying]

Just now, Wulfie Reanimator said:

In the case of textures / sculptie maps, if you've applied a texture to a prim, that prim can given out with copy and transfer, and this would work for your game. You just can't give out the map itself.

That was my hope! So, you think I'm ok then?

Thanks!

[Wulfie Reanimator]

Just now, Love Zhaoying said:

That was my hope! So, you think I'm ok then?

Thanks!

I don't see why not. Giving out a prim with the textures applied onto it does not give others access to the original textures, so it's not going against the merchant's restrictions.

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I am 110% sure that "as is" means just the textures themselves. It's the rest of the statement that I missed.

Thanks for your advice!

Honestly, it depends, that's why I said ask the creator because each creator can set their own.

   *Below are some examples of one creator who has some strict rules, and I only copy and pasted some.  However, I have come across sellers who say exactly what I reiterated to you - don't resell as is because you are essentially just reselling my work and they spell it out clearly that way so it varies from creator to creator.  But, now I think you are saying something different in that you want to use their texture on a prim.  Is that what you want to do?  

- Sell my Mesh Models with merely tinted shade maps applied to any face. That is merely re-selling my work. 

- Sell my Mesh Models with only tining of any face. That is merely re-selling my work. 

- Sell my Mesh Models with merely shade maps applied. That is merely re-selling my work.

 

[Love Zhaoying]

..it doesn't make sense that they'd sell these textures if my use-case wasn't included. Otherwise there's no point in making them full perm.

[Love Zhaoying]

2 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

But, now I think you are saying something different in that you want to use their texture on a prim.  Is that what you want to do?

That's what I've been saying since the first post. Nowhere did I say I planned to distribute the texture without it being applied.

[EliseAnne85]

4 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

That's what I've been saying since the first post. Nowhere did I say I planned to distribute the texture without it being applied.

I see as I re-read your post.  I assumed you were going for a full perm sculpty and it's texture in one kit.  Are you making the sculpty part?  Anyways, your thread was long and this is why some threads get wonky, they are already too long, didn't read, and go all over the place.  Sowry.  You want to know just about a full perm texture and it's use, a full perm texture which comes from a kit?   

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

13 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

.  I assumed you were going for a full perm sculpty and it's texture in one kit.

FYI, a "sculpt" is just a texture. It can be applied to any prim.

[EliseAnne85]

7 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

FYI, a "sculpt" is just a texture. It can be applied to any prim.

Of course, it's a sculpt map.  But, what are you making?  You want to make weapons with the sculpt map and their texture provided which comes all in one kit or what?   So, I'm not sure what you are trying to make but best of luck.  I was assuming you want to just re-create a sculpt weapon that comes with sculpt maps and textures.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

14 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Of course, it's a sculpt map.  But, what are you making?  You want to make weapons with the sculpt map and their texture provided which comes all in one kit or what?   So, I'm not sure what you are trying to make but best of luck.  I was assuming you want to just re-create a sculpt weapon that comes with sculpt maps and textures.  

I'm sorry, but I explained it very clearly. I'm sorry if you don't understand. Maybe if you re-read the first few posts..?

The weapons aren't the point; they just have to look nice. There is no "weaponizing" of the weapons planned. Think "role play". *Edit* They are basically a prop for RolePlay.

Thanks for your advice!

Edited January 7, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[EliseAnne85]

9 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

I'm sorry, but I explained it very clearly. I'm sorry if you don't understand. Maybe if you re-read the first few posts..?

The weapons aren't the point; they just have to look nice. There is no "weaponizing" of the weapons planned. Think "role play".

Thanks for you advice!

Good luck again to you!  I'm not sure what you are trying to make but what I'm going to copy and paste below what seemed to be the meat of it all.  

   *********************So anyway, I went looking, and there are plenty of Full Perm torches, swords, etc. on the Marketplace.  Sculpties seems an easy way to go; I can can just plop a texture on a prim and boom, it's a torch/sword/etc.

Here's my questions so far, I'm such a noob! (Happy 16th Rez Day to me!)

1. If I have the system rez an item with the Full Perm texture; and if I make it a Multi-player system - where not just the owner playing gets a copy of the item/texture, but anyone they play with gets a copy of the item/texture - am I following the general "Full Perm" rules?  

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

24 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Good luck again to you!  I'm not sure what you are trying to make but what I'm going to copy and paste below what seemed to be the meat of it all.  

   *********************So anyway, I went looking, and there are plenty of Full Perm torches, swords, etc. on the Marketplace.  Sculpties seems an easy way to go; I can can just plop a texture on a prim and boom, it's a torch/sword/etc.

Here's my questions so far, I'm such a noob! (Happy 16th Rez Day to me!)

1. If I have the system rez an item with the Full Perm texture; and if I make it a Multi-player system - where not just the owner playing gets a copy of the item/texture, but anyone they play with gets a copy of the item/texture - am I following the general "Full Perm" rules?  

1. User is playing a "text adventure game". This means they are typing.

2. If user holds an object instead of just typing, it will increase their hit/defense/healing/magic/health points by participating differently.

3. The objects planned are what you would expect to find in a "text adventure game".

The game concept is simple and not related to the actual objects. The object use is immaterial; they could be blank wooden prims with a script that identifies them as being worn and / or used. The object use is totally optional and merely one facet of the game concept. 

None of my explanation relates to perms, giving, copying. I hope you understand better now.

Thank you for your advice and your questions. 

This post is not intended to talk about "why". So, I don't have any reason to explain it. Sorry!

[Rowan Amore]

50 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

1. User is playing a "text adventure game". This means they are typing.

2. If user holds an object instead of just typing, it will increase their hit/defense/healing/magic/health points by participating differently.

3. The objects planned are what you would expect to find in a "text adventure game".

The game concept is simple and not related to the actual objects. The object use is immaterial; they could be blank wooden prims with a script that identifies them as being worn and / or used. The object use is totally optional and merely one facet of the game concept. 

None of my explanation relates to perms, giving, copying. I hope you understand better now.

Thank you for your advice and your questions. 

This post is not intended to talk about "why". So, I don't have any reason to explain it. Sorry!

For what it's worth, I don't even make things and I understood completely.  

[EliseAnne85]

1 hour ago, Love Zhaoying said:

1. User is playing a "text adventure game". This means they are typing.

2. If user holds an object instead of just typing, it will increase their hit/defense/healing/magic/health points by participating differently.

3. The objects planned are what you would expect to find in a "text adventure game".

The game concept is simple and not related to the actual objects. The object use is immaterial; they could be blank wooden prims with a script that identifies them as being worn and / or used. The object use is totally optional and merely one facet of the game concept. 

None of my explanation relates to perms, giving, copying. I hope you understand better now.

Thank you for your advice and your questions. 

This post is not intended to talk about "why". So, I don't have any reason to explain it. Sorry!

I was just curious as I've never heard of your game.  There was no expectation for you to explain but I was curious if you had the time to explain.  

Why couldn't you just rez round ball prims, buy some full perm textures and make magic looking marbles people could hold then there are no full perm items involved other than textures which you can put on anything.  I wasn't sure what you needed advice for full perm items as you thanked Lindal in the first response to your thread.

So, basically, I'm gathering you just want to know about the sculpt map being giving out in your game which becomes an object through the sculpt map?  Giving out full perm items for free in SL is tricky, most don't want giving out stuff for free under any reason.  It depends on each creator is really what I wanted to say.  

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

36 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

For what it's worth, I don't even make things and I understood completely.  

In all fairness, I've posted a LOT about my plans for the overall project and bits and pieces about this "proof of concept" game. 

 

28 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I was just curious as I've never heard of your game.  There was no expectation for you to explain but I was curious if you had the time to explain.  

Why couldn't you just rez round ball prims, buy some full perm textures and make magic looking marbles people could hold then there are no full perm items involved other than textures which you can put on anything.  I wasn't sure what you needed advice for full perm items as you thanked Lindal in the first response to your thread.

 

I had the time, yep! 

Let me know of any other questions.

You won't "hear of my game" because it is not about a game, it is about a "proof of concept" for a scripting / interpreter system! 🙂   Plus, I am not that far along in development, not advertising, not planning to sell, not asking for help on the game itself ..you get the idea 🙂 I post a lot about the overall plans.

A Linden "helpfully" moved my post to this section, is possibly why you saw it in the first place. 

30 minutes ago, EliseAnne85 said:

So, basically, I'm gathering you just want to know about the sculpt map being giving out in your game which becomes an object through the sculpt map?  Giving out full perm items for free in SL is tricky, most don't want giving out stuff for free under any reason.  It depends on each creator is really what I wanted to say.  

Not exactly. I would not be giving out the sculpt map. I would be giving out objects that use the sculpt map. There is a HUGE difference. 

Giving out objects that use the sculpt map is NOT giving out full perm objects. 

[EliseAnne85]

18 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Not exactly. I would not be giving out the sculpt map. I would be giving out objects that use the sculpt map. There is a HUGE difference. 

Giving out objects that use the sculpt map is NOT giving out full perm objects. 

Okay, so you buy a full perm sculpt map which makes an item from a prim.  When you make the item/object with a sculpt map, the map is duplicated into each object, this is what I mean.  So basically, each person gets a sculpt map when they get the object.  However, you are thinking this sculpt map once the object is made is useless.  I'm not saying you are just giving out the sculpt map but rather the item has the sculpt map in it.

Even though it's useless, I'd just contact the creator if you are unsure because I am reading the thread and others are saying many creators won't allow giving away their stuff for free under any circumstances, let alone copy and transfer.  However, there are some who will as long as it is copy/mod or mod/transfer and never full perm of the one's who will allow it once in a while.

BTW, your game sounds fascinating.  If I were you, I'd use no full perm items and make them pretty.

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[EliseAnne85]

2 hours ago, Rowan Amore said:

For what it's worth, I don't even make things and I understood completely.  

I hadn't read the whole thread because I thought Lindal answered correctly from the get-go and I did not know he meant the full perm sculpt map and not the full perm texture.  Either way though, both have full perm stipulations if they come in a kit to make one object.

But to @Love Zhaoying, I have read through the thread now and I like your idea, especially #2 as it holds a lot of positivity:  

2. If user holds an object instead of just typing, it will increase their hit/defense/healing/magic/health points by participating differently.

__________

You could use objects from the Library but if you have amazing scripting skills if you just rez SL round prim objects and make them magic-looking marbles for example you'd have no worries about any full perm TOS.   By using just SL shapes which come in the viewer itself a) they'd rez a whole lot faster then sculpties in the first place, and b) you could add so many interesting particle and scripted special effects into just regular old SL prim shapes which rez super fast.  

Heck, this place is for feedback.  No harm was meant by me in trying to understand what you were trying to build.  Sorry.

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by EliseAnne85

[Love Zhaoying]

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

I did not know he meant the full perm sculpt map and not the full perm texture

A "sculp map" is a texture.  You keep making a distinction; however, since a sculpt map is a type of texture, for most purposes - there is no distinction. The same perms apply for both sculpt map textures, and non-sculpt map textures.  It is my honest belief that you do not understand, that sculpt maps are a type of texture, because you keep bringing it up as if there is some distinction. Because I keep explaining this, and you keep responding the same way - I have now given up.

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Either way though, both have full perm stipulations if they come in a kit to make one object.

If buying a full perm texture - whether or not it is a sculpt map texture - in general, it is OK to sell or give away items that USE the texture; it is not OK to sell or give away the texture itself in such a way that the full perms are preserved.  For the case I am discussing - there is no "kit". There is only the sculpt map texture. The seller does not supply any "object" or "prim" - just the sculpt map texture.  A creator would use the sculpt map texture ON a prim/object.  This still does not make it a "kit".  There is no "kit" involved here. The term "kit" does not apply and is not used in these cases for Second Life.  So, because you keep bringing this up also, I have now also given up on this.

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

You could use objects from the Library but if you have amazing scripting skills if you just rez SL round prim objects and make them magic-looking marbles for example you'd have no worries about any full perm TOS. 

I am not sure what you are suggesting; I do not want to create my own objects. Yes, using library objects (and applying my own scripts to them) is something I brought up in this threa as an option. Applying a sculpt map to a prim with even less than "amazing" scripting skills does exactly what you describe: it makes an SL prim object "magic-looking" by transforming it into the shape defined by the sculpt map. Plus, there are no "worries" about "any full perm TOS" because - this is why creators are selling the full perm objects - so creators and builders can use them and distribute them.  The only real restriction is that the original object / texture / sculpt map not be distributed with full perms - which I was never planning on doing and never suggested doing.  So, because you keep bringing this up also, I have now also given up on this.

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

 By using just SL shapes which come in the viewer itself a) they'd rez a whole lot faster then sculpties in the first place, and b) you could add so many interesting particle and scripted special effects into just regular old SL prim shapes which rez super fast.  

All "SL shapes", "come in the viewer itself".  That is how all "SL shapes" work. 

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

a) they'd rez a whole lot faster then sculpties in the first place,

This is true. I am well-aware of the MANY drawback of sculpted prims: slow loading, may not load well for some users, load slower under "lag", etc.  The only advantage really these days (since mesh) is - you can take ANY prim and make it look like any sculpted object just by applying the sculpt map.

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

b) you could add so many interesting particle and scripted special effects into just regular old SL prim shapes which rez super fast.  

True - but - you can add those special effects to any object that is not "no mod".  Any normal prim, sculpted prim, or mesh object.  Selecting any one of those types of objects does not preclude you from adding "interesting partical and scripted special effects".  Yes, SL prim shapes "rez super fast".  However, these days - the trend is towards "mesh".  If I were NOT going to use a) sculpt maps, or b) library objects, I would purchase c) mesh objects with the permissions I need.  Those mesh objects would also allow addition of scripts for "interesting partical and scripted special effects".  And, mesh objects rez pretty these days - much faster then sculpted prims.  I explain all this to clarify for you that there is no reason to select "regular old SL prim shapes" in order to use "interesting particle and scripted special effects" - any "mod" permissions object that you can script, can have these types of effects. 

One thing you may be missing out on is - with sculpted prims, you can instantly transform them from one object to another. This cannot be done with the other types of objects.  Certainly, you can change the "shape" of a standard prim object - but that is not the same, at all, as being able to instantly change completely a sculpted prim object from one thing, into another totally different thing.

10 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

Heck, this place is for feedback.  No harm was meant by me in trying to understand what you were trying to build.  Sorry.

I do take exception to the idea that I am trying to "build" anything - I am not a builder; I am a scripter. I am not "building" a prim. I am not "building" a sculpt. I am not "building"  a mesh.  I do not use the term "building" for scripting. This thread only got moved to the "Building and Texturing" Forum because a Linden moved the thread to this Forum.   I am "creating a system" - I am not "building" anything. To explain what I am "creating" would take many paragraphs and posts - and you may have to be a professional programmer (or at least an advanced student) to understand what I am "creating".

I am not a 'Builder' ":   I am not "building" or "creating" weapons, boxes, house, prims, sculpts, mesh, avatars, or anything physical for Second Life.  If you are using "build" as a generic word for "create", then I am sorry for not understanding your usage.  To me at least, in Second Life the term "build" usually refers to something "physical". So, because you keep bringing this up also (the idea that I am "building" something that you want to understand), I have now also given up on this. 

No reason to apologize. If you see my responses to you - I almost always thank you for your feedback and questions. 

Thank you for your feedback and questions.

Edited January 8, 2023 by Love Zhaoying

[Wulfie Reanimator]

7 hours ago, EliseAnne85 said:

When you make the item/object with a sculpt map, the map is duplicated into each object, this is what I mean.  So basically, each person gets a sculpt map when they get the object.  However, you are thinking this sculpt map once the object is made is useless.  I'm not saying you are just giving out the sculpt map but rather the item has the sculpt map in it.

I'm very confused about why you keep saying that the sculpt map will be in the object.

An object that is using a sculpt map for its shape does not need to contain the sculpt map in its contents. Nobody is getting the map.

[Love Zhaoying]

5 hours ago, Wulfie Reanimator said:

I'm very confused about why you keep saying that the sculpt map will be in the object.

An object that is using a sculpt map for its shape does not need to contain the sculpt map in its contents. Nobody is getting the map.

I tried too. I tried very hard. I tried paragraphs. Lots of words. Lots of good words. Many good words were used by me. Nothing seems to help. So I gave up on multiple points.

[Anaiya Ahren]

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But as you pointed out, if I designed it correctly, the users could not reuse / resell the textures themselves (their copy of the system could only give out objects that USED the textures).. does that fix the issue?

Unless I misunderstand the mechanics of what you're asking (I got a bit lost and confused as I read the thread), not at all.  The issue is the creator wants people to buy ,(along with the license), the means of generating transferable copies of that object, from them exclusively.  The purpose of the rules is basically to prevent a buyer of the full perm sculpty texture/license  from doing anything with the texture that can result in someone else (who didn't buy the license/texture) being able to make transferable copies of the sculpty prim.

 

So in this proposed use, the players would end up with the sculpty with transfer and copy enabled, so they can make copies they can transfer to others?  If they can generate transferable copies  that will break the rules of the license.

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Can't the objects using the textures be set so that the new "system owner" can give copies of the objects to others, but those others can't copy or transfer them to anyone else?

Well you can't let the system owner have copy+trans sculpts that are licensed with rules like this,  But I think (unless I overlooked something), if you can tolerate a bit more "end user" set up, you can do what you want if you have the owner rezz 2 different "object givers" - 1 that you created and have set the permissions on and is ready to go when rezzed - it can be no trans with copy perm and gives objects to the game system owner only. 

 

The other would be created by the game system owner who would have to set the next owner perms to either no copy or no trans (whichever you decide and then specify in your instructions and script) - because they still own the giver, it will copy and transfer items to the other players despite the "next owner" settings - for compliance with the sculpt texture license the scuplty texture needs to be not applied while the game owner can still change the permissions - but as soon as the item transfers to another player, the new owner permissions kick in and you can have your script check they're correct (and only if the permissions are still the way they're supposed to be,) then, apply the UUID to make the object into the desired sculpty. 

 

During game operation, the owner would get their objects from the giver you provided - since only the owner needs to take these objects, that one can be set by you as copy/no-trans meeting the license terms.  The players would get their objects from the owner rezzed giver that the owner created, but  the UUID would only be applied if the object had been transferred to the player and with the correct permissions, so again the license terms are upheld and no one ends up with a sculpty they can both copy and transfer.

You could build in a few checks as layers of security to make sure your script can't apply UUIDS when either the owner of the object is the creator, or the permissions are not set correctly - you might even want it to have it check in with another script in the system by sending a query and getting a response before it activates the sculpty texture application so it can only work when the game system is near by and operating a game - that should prevent any shenanigans.

It's a little bit more set up for the game owner, but it's still significantly less complicated to set up and get onto playing than wearing and saving a new outfit to my avatar's wardrobe usually is.  Unless I've overlooked something, this should allow players to get their objects while keeping it all compliant with the typical licensing terms for sculpty texture.