I own 2x $20K scanners...how do I start for SL?

[Lyric Demozay]

Hi  there...hopefully a quick question that I am not findinf the answer to easily:

-I run a 3D printing company, and part of what we do is 3D scanning.  I have 2x high end (though not the highest end) scanners, one for scanning small objects and one for scanning larger objects.  The scans create extremely dense meshes, in color.

I am wondering if there are detail guidelines, or any general handbooks for creating objects that will conform to what SL can display in-world?  I could create a lot of extremely high quality content fairly easily, but I would want to know the limitations of the platform before I do anything.

 

Thanks!

[Dree Eames]

I should probably wait until someone with experience with 3d printing chimes in, but I'm guessing the scanning process creates some very dense geometry.  You'd have to use a program like Blender (or one of many other 3d software brands) to greatly decimate/reduce the geometry of scanned result  in order reach an acceptable polygon count that could reasonably upload into Second life.  You also will need to create the UVs for applying the final texture and figure out how to transfer the scanned texture to match these UV coordinates (if in fact the scanner not only scans the  geometry, but also the surface texture).

 SL mesh wise needs to be very low-geometry.  The real art to the job is in the texturing and in adding material tricks like bump and spec maps to add visual complexity.  You'd probably be better off learning to model and use these scanned items as either a background reference image or as a base to retopologize. Once you've done this you can use the complex model as a base to project the detail lost via simplification onto  a normal map which captures all the bump detail and  you can use that in your bag of tricks to further the illusion of dense detail.

And needless to say,  as you mentioned you work for a 3d printing company, but did not mention you are a sculptor/artist creating these items,  you need to be in compliance with any copyright issues and have permission from your customers in order to retain copies of their 3d art that you take into other venues, such as SL. 

[Lyric Demozay]

Thanks...yep...I know about the issues in 3D scanning, and would not upload protected content.  I not only work "for" the company, I "own" the 3D printing company

The scanners bake in UV textures, and the scanning software can simplify the mesh to any target that I desire to hit for polygon count, keeping the UV's in there.  The scanning software does not add any sort of spec maps or anything like that...I would use other software to make it look nice, you are right.

I guess I am looking for guidelines for how dense a mesh is usable/advised for use in SL, and the file formats, etc...to give me a start to see what I can/can not do with these scanners.

[Dree Eames]

Go into SL and press CMD Shift R (I'm on a Mac so for PC it's probably CTL Shift R)  and look around at the world in wireframe.  This will give you a sense of mesh complexity.

I might also note here that when someone posts here to on a topic the information is for the benefit of everyone, not just the op.  Everyone gets an opportunity to learn and problem solve. If a forum participant mentions something useful like a reminder about copyright infringement, there's no need to feel singled out.

In the same vein, I'm delighted for you that you own this 3d scanning equiptment, but this information is not germane to the topic and in fact, in demonstrating your professional status, it's less likely people will feel compelled to assist you.  Most of us are just working stiffs, hobbiests who model each treasure from scratch the "old fashioned way"  - and spending hours at the job.

[Lyric Demozay]

I thank you for assisting me, and if other people who read this thread feel like they do not want to assist me, then they don't have to, but I appreciate your help!

What I am suggesting is the creation of objects for use in SL not as a professional business, but because my parents (who are in their 80's) have "found" second life and enjoy it tremendously.  Though I have and use scanners in my professional life, my interest in SL is to make things that will delight not only my parents, but others as well.  I felt it appropriate to mention the cost of the scanner because the less expensive scanners (Microsoft Kinect and the like) produce one quality of mesh, and the scanners I use produce another quality of mesh.  I wanted to save time by mentioning the price of the scanner to move the discussion away from, "Oh, a scanner is not the best tool for getting detail..."...because most people assume that the discussion is about the less expensive scanners, and their capabilities.

I will run the command you said and look around, but I am not sure if that will help me....if I modeled something by hand, I would try to save the most time as possible while still getting the best result (the "hours" comment you said in your post)....but the scanners have no such requirement...and that is why I was seeking a guide to maximum / minimum limits to mesh detail to help me see if the scanners can produce something nice when the meshes are simplified to a specific number/threshold.

 

[Rolig Loon]

Limits are very hard to quantify, because (a) they are based on complex formulae, (b) we don't know precisely what they are, and © they keep being refined.  There are several related limits, which all come together in the calculation of an object's Land Impact (L.I.).  A model's complexity (number of tris and verts ...) certainly counts for a lot, but so does its physics shape/size and the amount of detail at various LOD levels.  You can get a general feel for how modelers play with those parameters to optimize L.I. and image quality by taking a look at these web sites:

http://www.lokieliot.com/blog/?p=1193

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Prims-Prim-Equivalent-Land-Impact-a-too-long-guide/td-p/1293579

And you can learn more about the current formula used to calculate the physics component at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Mesh_physics

Read dertails about download weight (model complexity, LOD...) at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Download_Weight

Consider also your object's "display weight," which is a measure of the work that your GPU has to do in rendering the object >>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rendering_weight

You should also start scouring this forum for past discussions of limits.  The topic comes up often and is never exhausted.

[Dora Gustafson]

Models uploaded to SL are compromising between number of triangles and cost
More triangles cost more to upload, take more bandwidth to communicate to the viewer, the viewer needs more power to render and more triangles need more prim space when rezzed in world.
So dense models can easily course a laggy experience

This is the simple version. There are more things to consider when the cost is calculated. This wiki article will get you started and lead you to a lot of other relevant articles

:smileysurprised::smileyvery-happy:

[Lyric Demozay]

Dora and Rolig....those articles are exactly what I was looking for...thanks!!!!

[Indigo Mertel]

@Lyric, it's difficult to tell you what is optimal for models in SL is, as this depends on the model. Optimal is whatever best quality you can get out of a model with the least number of faces. What is important to consider is that models should not tax the system, and in order to determine this models inworld get a measument unit called LI (short for land impact). A LI is determined by several factors. To get an idea of how mesh models work in SL I suggest you take a look at the wiki: http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh

[Thinkerer Melville]

I don't know enough to help you on this, but I hope you will look into the possibility of producing solid products from Second Life objects for sale.  There is a lot of art work produced in SL.  Some of it might sell in 3D.  

 

[Lyric Demozay]

Not really my area...but if they are exportable in .STL or .OBJ with colors baked in, selling them online is easy!  (as long as oyu have rights to the file) you just upload them onto any of the online 3D printing sites (there are a couple of major ones) and you can sell them.  Real life sized ones would be much harder, but certainly small replicas would be be easy.

[Cathy Foil]

Most likely you will have to retopologize your scanned mesh to get the Land Impact, commonly referred to as LI, down to a reasonable level.  Land Impact is the amount of prims that are assigned to your mesh.  Each piece of land in SL is only allowed so many prims.  If your scanned mesh has too many vertices the LI will be too high and not that many people will buy it or your parents won't be able to rez that many of them on their own piece of land.

You can retopologize manually in quite a few programs but ZBrush I hear is the easiest.

Since you bring up the topic of rights to the files you should know anything you upload to Second Life you automatically give Linen Lab full rights to your creation.  It is in the TOS.  Many people are upset since LL put this in the TOS about a year ago.

[Pamela Galli]

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Lyric Demozay wrote:

Not really my area...but if they are exportable in .STL or .OBJ with colors baked in, selling them online is easy!  (as long as oyu have rights to the file) you just upload them onto any of the online 3D printing sites (there are a couple of major ones) and you can sell them.  Real life sized ones would be much harder, but certainly small replicas would be be easy.

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I have been investiating the 3D printing market. I have long suspected that making 3D content had such an extremely high learning curve, someone would come up with something easier. 3D scanners, I think, are it. 

But even the old fashioned hand-made 3D models I make, I could sell on 3D printer sites -- and in the real world they do not care about LI! 

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[Drongle McMahon]

You might also like to look at http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Limits

There is a section on Mesh, and the following note that imposes a tighter limit on triangle count (21844/material) because of a long-standing bug. However, while it's difficult to give advice with any precision without knowing the type and size of the objects, you should almost certainly be aiming at triangle counts much smaller. Fine detail that isn't required for the silhouette can be simulated by using a normal map baked from a high poly mesh to a low poly mesh that has geometry at a lower level of detail. Most of the main 3D modelling programs can do that, and there are specialised programs as well.

I would suggest using the decimator in your software to make a who;e lot of models with decreasing poly counts. Then try them out on the Adit test grid (or the main grid if you 3D printing company is profitable enough!). See what they look like and see what their land impact is, remembering that you can rez about 234 LI units per 1024 sqm (32x32m). When you get an idea of what is feasible, then start baking detail into normal maps if you need it.

There is also information on the download weight part of LI. and its dependence on size, here, although it is quite complicated and probably not necessary for your purposes.

Also, for import into SL, you need Collada (dae) files, which you didn't mention in your post. So you may need another program to convert from obj or whatever.

[Lyric Demozay]

I really appreciate all of your help and advice, everyone!  Thanks!  I will probaby start with some of my Dad's art works (since he is an artist) so they can hang his picture on their in-wolrld wall in their house.