smaller is better maybe?

[161488303349]

if you want a business, say like a club/event type then you actual dont want a big ginormous space usually. you want a much smaller space where can pack/fit heaps of people in

say like 40 people on a 4096m. less space even sometimes

so what if you made some sims that small. then gridblocked them together. that could mean like about 640 avatars in a standard sim size space

4096 * 16 = 65536. so like 40 avatars per smallsim * 2 sims per core * 8 cores = 640 per box in close proximity

would have to look at how draw distance works and make some changes based on the gridblocking. but it kinda already solves most of the wearable script problem of so many people in a close space

i think would be doable without breaking the main grid if you made as private buyables out on the edge of the grid somewheres

eta again: maybe a 3 x3 grid be good.. so the middle one can be the stage. 320 avatar audience that way

 

[Freya Mokusei]

Not sure I follow, however:

Why would anyone pay full sim prices for 4096m/937 prims, when for the same price they could get a full sim?

Additionally, sims are fixed sizes at 256m^2. Almost all visual mathematics that is done by the viewer relies on this value. Examples include mesh (including 'ruth' and prims), physics and Windlight. Changing a sim to be any less than 256m along each side would require a ground-up reworking of visual code (i.e., will not complete).

ETA (with explanation): Land size/mesh/visual doesn't generate significant lag, therefore there's almost no reason to limit it on its own. You could offer 512x512m sims and their lag-when-empty would be identical to an empty 256x256m. Space == Lag is a false equivilency, there's no way to make it 'fair' when relying on this to control lag because the numbers are not related in any way.

[RyanEric]

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16 wrote:

say like 40 people on a 4096m. less space even sometimes

 

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40 people on 4096m² or less? Have fun with that, will give you lag you never can imagine.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

You wouldn't even be able to move if the land were completely empty except for the stage and all the avatars were frozen and not moving .  Most lag in a crowd is generated by rendering avatars and the more there are and the closer they are together the more lag your going to get. To have a draw distance far enough to see the center stage your viewer would have to render all the things between you and the stage,which would mean hundreds of avatars. :smileysurprised:

 

[161488303349]

yes is some issues. am wondering about how they might be solved

+

consider the simulation at Ahern/Morris WA complex

is 4 simulations come together. each sim manages its own part of the combined scene presented to the viewer

differences in server lag can be quite noticeable as you move from one sim to another. depending on the number of avatars on each. what they wearing, scripts, textures, objects, etc

on the viewer side then depending on your computer and how you manage your settings then can handle things ok all/most/some times

when the place is loaded up with avatars and you stand say on the step of one of the buildings in normal camera, looking at the step of the building next to yours on the next sim. then pan your camera to the middle of the courtyard so can see everyone in front of you on your sim and everyone in camera view on the other 3 sims at the same time

is not all that bad once you get/dl all the textures, anim and attachment data. you only impacted physics and script wise by about a 1/4 of whats in your view. by them on the same sim as you pretty much

viewer side avatar imposter level has quite a noticeable effect on how fast the view renders depending on your computer

+

is bc of the way Ahern/Morris works now that i start to think about how that could be replicated on a larger scale

[Richie Kanto]

The point most seem to be missing, and the reason the welcome area at Ahern/Morris is set up the way it is, is because there's a server limit to how many AVs are allowed to be on each SIM. For mainland, each SIMs maximum is 40, on full region private land the SIM can be set to allow up to 100. Homesteads are limited to 20 (I believe) and open spaces even less.

Yes the lag gets worse the more AVs on a SIM, but, you could never get more than 400 at the junction corner of 4 full region private estates AND if it was that packed you'd have so much lag you couldn't move (not to mention you'd not be paying for just a small 4096m, the estate owner would insist you pay for the entire 4 SIMs since none of the rest of the SIM is accessible to anyone else when you're full). Not to mention the Avs would have to be evenly distributed 100 across each SIM and no one could move onto the neighboring SIM because it would be full.

Sorry to be such a downer.

 

[161488303349]

is ok. just examining how it might work. so is all good

so here goes some more (:

+

yes. is a hard limit to the number of avatars that you can put into a shared space. a simulation/scenegraph. without it turning to mud

so lets pick a number and say is 40 for this example

lets say also that the space is 4096 virtual sqm. so need one server sim/scene manager for that

if put 4 of them together then is 4 separate sim/scene managers. like how it works now when put 4 standard 65536 sims together

suppose that you then put 9 of these smaller ones together in a 3 x 3 grid. would need 9 sim/scene managers. max avatar count 9 x 40 = 360

if step out to the next bound then is 5 x 5. 25 sim/scenes x 40 = 1,000. and so on

+

in terms of physics and scripts then the effect on any one avatar is no more than it is now

where is difficult is downloading the volume of resources and rendering when the client draw distance is set to encompass them all. thats doable if you got a huge fibre and a powerful computer

so how would you do it on say wireless/copper and a off the shelf laptop?

the first/main step would be the ability client side to choose how many of the sim/scenes you want to see/dl

example: a concert on a 3 x 3 grid

the middle one is a stage. bc is a sim then it can be restricted to the performers/staff. the performers not going to be affected physics/scriptwise by anyone on the adjacent sims. cant be crashed either unless they do it to themselves. so for the performers then be quite server lag free

the other thing is the performers camera viewport which affect rendering. if stand in the middle of the stage sim. how many of the outer sims can you see at once? how would it effect you if you reduced your draw distance down to the edge of the stage? or just moved it out enough to a point where your computer can render a part of the audience efficiently?

the stream will work bc all the sims can be tuned into it. like normal. so that will be ok

+

if you on the outer sims then if you could pick the sim you on and the stage sim only to view then will reduce the lag for you to no more than it is now when you on a full sim and looking into the next sim with only a few avatars on it

or even if you could pick just the stage sim. the sim you on doesnt dl/render if you did that. cant even see yourself. other people can see you tho. and you can chat them and see them on the map and nearby list and so on. probably have to make it so that if cant see yourself then cant move either

or can pick any combination you like, upto to all of them if you want and have the capacity to handle it

+

have just used a concert to help visualise things

the principle is the same for other visualations and configurations tho. mainly that more avatars = more sim/scene managers working together

am not suggesting that the whole grid be redone this way. am suggesting that out on the edge of the existing grid, this could be done as an as well

if is off the edge of the existing grid then the global coords for this smallgrid mapping can be changed to a different config without affecting the main grid

teleporting beyond the hardcoded limits of the current grid can be done by making the edge sims as gateways. to jump from the maingrid to the smallgrid then is a double jump thru a gateway. can do that seamless on the client side

+

one of the things that concern us all is tier. linden in a bind about this tho. maybe is not about reducing tier. maybe is about offering different configurations as different products for different purposes

maybe if can make a smallsim grid of the left edge of the main grid. then can also maybe make a largesim grid on the right. for example a 768 x 768 single sim/scene for $295 tier? or get a 3 x 3 smallsim cluster for $295

if these were available then can look at reducing tier on standard/homestead sims

+

maybe also if made another smallgrid at the top then could make that one fullon experience permissions and not ever bother trying to do that on the maingrid or the side ones

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I understand what you are saying but I doubt seriously it would happen in our lifetime lol. I once had a very deep pocket RL production company client that wanted to have a land mass similar to what you are proposing that would support hundreds of  people  in one place for a live music performance featuring RL artists.  They wanted this duplicated so that thousands could participate simultaneously by being assigned to the separate land masses with performances going on for the equivalent of a major music festival.  They were willing to pay whatever it took to make this happen by paying for extra dedicated servers, manpower etc plus a very generous amount of profit for LL, to say nothing of the world wide publicity value and the value of the thousands of accounts that would be created for the event,some of whom would remain SL residents. This was during the time LL was promoting SL heavily to RL businesses.  LL turned us down.  If they turned this amount of money away, they aren't going to go for what you are proposing.

[161488303349]

you probably right

one thing that wasnt a factor a few years ago tho was the impact/uptake of wireless and tablets, netbooks, etc

for large vista complex scenes then fullon computers will still be the way to go for a few more years yet i think

is just fun to think about how you might simulate a realtime 3D performance/scene/game to many watcher/actors aimed at both desktop and book/tablets simultaneously

maybe if is not linden then someone else will have a go at it. maybe even one of the opensim groups. like break away from SL centric. can remain asset type compatible, but instead of going toward megaregions and more prims/li per. go the other way and make a smallgrid

maybe even chop them tinier. like 1000/2000 sqm + 10/20 avatars per sim/scene manager. something that small would probably run quite ok on wireless. could make quite a nice home/room with one of them. teleport to the 3x3, 5x5, 7x7 etc arenas, shops, clubs and performance venues 

 

[Theresa Tennyson]

One problem with this approach would be that the servers don't just have to keep track of the avatars on a single sim; they also keep track of avatars on adjacent sims that are looking into that sim. An avatar looking in from another sim is what the statistics bar lists as a "child agent." Probably the reason the avatar limit on a mainland region is less than half that of a private region is the possibility of more "child agents" the simulator would have to handle.

[161488303349]

like you say linden use the main/agent method. divide and conquer. is a pretty good strategy this i think

dont know anything much techy about how it all works. just observe and see what happens and wonder about it

+ 

like for example:

(i only got a laptop with i3, nvidia 230 gfx and adsl. i just use the beta sl viewer as well. whatever version that is. i think would be the same with most any other 3.x TPV tho)

if i stand on top the temple at OIP and mod my draw distance

i can see all HIP, Pooley Stage and as far as Waterhead even. plus quite a few other regions as well. with all kinds of stuff happening on them

takes ages to dl everything some days. but when it does then i can see pretty good. the effects of objects/scripts doing their stuff. even avatars moving and doing whatever. way away from me. the faraway actions can be a bit jumpy sometimes tho. but is ok most times

cant see any avatars on Waterhead tho or even HIP2. can only see them on the Map. can only see avatars on HIP and Pooley next door

when is only a few avatars on OIP then can pan easy and zoom my camera all over. even when HIP and Pooley have heaps of avatars on them

where it turns to mud for me is when OIP itself gets loaded up with avatars

this my experience. so i wonder about that and why it goes like it does. and if this is true then what else might be true

+

am more going whatif this or whatif that. my main whatif being: whatif the region size was reduced. and if so then how different would that be on a 3x3 small region/sim cluster than it is now on a 3x3 std size region cluster. LOD probably be the main difference i think

[Pussycat Catnap]

This won't happen until one of the MMO companies like Blizzard or NCSoft comes out with a graphical MUSH, aka; their own SL / virtual world.

Those guys know how to get 100s of avatars in one spot on decent lag.

Both WoW and Guild Wars have different ways of staggering impact / phasing - that are radically different from anything in SL.

Its an issue at the fundamental design end of the spectrum. To do, SL would need a reboot. We're running on technology that is a decade old, which has been bootstrapped into keeping up multiple times. And even this is not fully true - half the community is still holding out on 4+ year old client-software, and even the 'cutting edge' end of us are running on software that was not ideal when new...

- Everything would need a reset in order to start from the ground up with the idea in mind that hundreds if not thousands of connections might likely wish to occupy the same space.