[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

It's pretty well documented that Viv and I dont agree about Mesh Import.  We've spent some quality time debating it amongst ourselves

However, we do agree that it's remarkable that LL would actually link to the "Deal With It" video on their corporate site.  What the heck could they be thinking?  It sends the wrong message to be coming from the SL web site...  It does show a pretty typical attitude of LL to not consider the consequences of what they put out there.  Context counts for a lot in this instance.

Aside from quality engineering and management, one thing LL could use a lot of is a decent PR overseer.

[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

@Maelstrom - Surely after the nonsense with emerald people are going to be very wary about external software anyway...

Are you trying to equate Blender, Daz 3D Studio, et al, with what happened with Emerald?

Moves Maelstrom over to the Prok category.

Some quick points:

• In SL, as in RL, if something looks pretty visually impressive, it most likely was done by someone who took the time to learn whatever tools were available.  Does learning meshes entail some concepts that are beyond simple prims?  Sure!  What of it?  Scale your expectations for results to the amount of effort you are willing to put into it.
• No, mesh editing isn't going to be in the SL viewer yet (aside from scaling, translation, and rotation)   Would you like LL to hold off for another 6 months to a year while they implement an in-world editor?  The viewer is monolithic and bloated as it is, and needs a serious reset.
• Never Stop Learning.

p.s. Vivienne is pretty damn smart.  I've debated with her for hours, and we disagree, but it's still fun.   ^5 Viv

[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

@ pP - lindens,  if you're reading this...would it be possible to expand further into  mesh imports with Maya/3dmax animation exports and skeletal rigging as  well?  I ask this as we mesh developers often need to test our surface  topology through animation (i.e. to see if the mesh takes well to  skeletal deformations)- a push and pull between modeling and animation;  rather modeling dictated by animation as character meshes will be  moving/be animated.

I think that we have all seen some desired goals in games and other environments, but just not here...

There is a very real question as to 'how capable can the SL client get, and when?'.  The 1.x and 2.x codebases are pretty monolithic.   A 3.x client with ample facility for plugins (what you are talking about would be a great developer oriented plugin)  would be a step in the right direction (a la firefox/chrome/safari).

However...  One should look at how long it would take LL to get to the point where, say, Unity 2.6 is today.  I think it would be 2 years, and environments such as Unity would be that much farther along by then.

If I were LL ... I would.. put out meshes, put the brakes on new features, and start working on adding the SL environment on top of Unity.  Unity have solved so many of the hard problems already, and on more platforms.  There are two directions to go.. evolve the SL client and reinvent the wheel, or go to a platform that has the wheels, and shape the SL experience on top of that.

Bucky / Daniel Smith / twitter: @javajoint

[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

First off, Reed Steamroller for President.   Well said, Reed.

@ Qie says:

Most of  the code needed for Your Favorite Mesh Software is already in SL.  The  SL mesh viewer has, of necessity, everything it needs to display meshes  (including texturing, lighting, etc), and to translate, rotate, and  manipulate their scale in three dimensions.  Sure, that's not the  modeling functions...

 

I understand why poeple would *want* a mesh editor in world.  I also would ask:  "you willing to wait?".

Look at the LL staff.  They let Qarl go for no apparent reason.  On the one hand, they charge outrageous Sim tier fees, and on the other, they have cut back support hours and tech staff...

Now ask yourself, how long would it take the Lindens to do a decent in-world mesh editor?  My guess is 6 months to a year.  Believe me, it is non-trivial.  Where do you draw the line on features?  Do you allow the selection of groups of vertices?  Do you support 3D Bezier curves?  What do you do for the textures you are applying to the mesh?

When I assert that a TPV can do the same editor in half the time, I have good reason to do so.  They dont have to go through the overhead of LL process.  They dont have to get into all sorts of user stories and use cases to the same extent.  They aren't trying to provide a "one size fits all" solution.  LL would be in that situation though, and it would take them much longer to do the same thing.

Now ask yourself, are you willing to *wait* for the Lindens to hold off on mesh until there is some very functional in-world mesh editor?  Why should they?  Why should we all wait while they reinvent the wheel that is Blender, Google Sketchup, and so many others?

Let me leave you with this thought -- the real future for an SL/OpenSim viewer is to have something modular where you can have addons/plugins.  This would encourage developers to do things that are not part of the core viewer.  If you start addding every wish into a monolithic viewer, guess what happens?  You get something with a memory footprint so large that it runs on substantially fewer machines than it does today.   So.. careful what you wish for    -- Two broad swaths of communities to look to for examples are:

• The Firefox, Chrome, and Safari developers, and all of the plugins/addons/extensions they provide for web browsers
• The Unity community, and all of the extensions, prefabs, etc they come up with for that platform

So, be happy.  Smile.  Learn.  Know that better things are coming.   Don't expect everything to happen on some "Gold Master" shipping day.  See the destination on the hill, and be happy to check out the view from each turnout on the way up.

[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

btw, just to mention a good resource..

You may qualify to download an Autodesk product for FREE, to learn about making meshes, etc:

If you are student (.edu email address, or a faculty invite):

http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=register

If you are unemployed, and in some creative / technical field, you may also qualilfy:

http://students.autodesk.com/?nd=assistance_home

[Next Steps for Mesh Import]

Ultimately, the 1.x and 2.x codebases are evolutionary dead ends.  For the time being though, there is a very likely sequence of events to look forward to:

• the 2.x sl viewer will have meshes first...
• the mesh specific code will get up and running in 2.x TPVs such as Kirsten's Viewer (if K gets enough beer
• the mesh specific code will be backported to Phoenix and Imprudence
• one of the TPVs will take a stab at doing in-world mesh editiing
• The OpenSim folks wil add COLLADA support

The 2.x codebase will be held back, in part by Oz Linden, by a resistance to the 1.x UI.  Developers wont spend time buying into that effort.  Oz has 4 months of experience in SL, plus just a little from before.  He's in the interesting position now of either being the gateway, or roadblock, to the future development of the 2.x SL viewer.

The 1.x codebase will progress via the TPV community... however.. there are some real obstacles ahead.  It cannot get to the point of competing with something based on Unity3D in the areas of : graphics, physics, animation, and scripting.

At this point, every day spent on advancing the 1.x and 2.x codebases is time that could be spent on a far more capable foundation.  The viewer folks can try to evolve towards where Unity 2.6 is today (and it would take a couple of years...), or... some pioneers can forge ahead and use Unity as a base, and add in the things that make SL what it is (chat, inventory, building in world.. etc).

I think it will come about via a community effort.

http://www.reslive.com/   and http://rezzable.net/web2-0/unity3d-and-opensim-working-together-prototype/   are two fledgling efforts in this direction.

My hunch is that 1.x, 2.x, and Unity efforts will be concurrent over the next 6 months.   The Unity developer community is big... once a fledgling viewer gets traction on that side, watch out.. things will happen fast!

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@Viv - See, you are totally blind. Do you actually think that you can make ONE dollar with any content apart from animations and scripts in the near future?

Adapt of leave!

 

Vivienne!  Heya!  How are ya!?  :-)

Know what you can put in a mesh?  A script!

Do people sell scripts on their own?  Mmm.. sorta.. but most scripts go into... wait for it.... finished objects ready for use!

Meshes will provide yet another container to be brought to life with scripts.  And we can all think of scripted objects that sell.

(and I shudder for a moment, thinking of how many damn mesh radios I will see with people using my BuckyRadio script without my permission.. but that's my fault, and that's another story)

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@ Qie writes:

The blank  assertion that there could never be an in-world mesh editor because  it's too difficult for LL to program is simply silly.  Do you really  think basic operations on mesh are more complicated to implement than  the existing build tool?

 

Yes.  It is much more involved.  Look at the terrain tool.  Now imagine you can reach into any of the downward arrows and manipulate them independent of the others.  Now free it of the constraint of being attached to the ground.  If you are talking about simple scaling of a mesh overall.. that's one thing -- reaching in and tweaking points is another.

Can LL do it?  Yes.  Should they?  Yes.  Should we wait up on mesh until they do?  No.  It would take them 6 months to a year to get it right.  How many here want to wait up on mesh until there is an in-world editor?  (and, knowing a bit about LL's dev process, it would only be in the 2.x viewer).

Qie also suggested that LL make the format/protocol available so that TPVs can do a mesh editor.  Yes!  Great idea.  They could do it in 2 months.   The TPV community has the luxury of being able to experiment with new features without worrying about a "one size fits all" constraint.  LL has the overhead of more process and internal second guessing, so yes, it will take them longer to implement most things.

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@Vivienne - 

"If  you  are limited to prims and sculpties, you are limited.   You simply  cant  acheive the same results.  It would be like asking Jackson Pollock  to do  a drip painting with a sharpie pen."

He must have been a genius, truly.

 

Actually, he was, and he did make a lot of money in his lifetime, a rarity for artists.

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@Vivienne

  @FireFox :"It's not the tool, It's the artist using it."

if it is, why do we need mesh import?

He was referrring to the class of tools that make meshes.  I would bet 95% of the folks here got that right away.

If you are limited to prims and sculpties, you are limited.   You simply cant acheive the same results.  It would be like asking Jackson Pollock to do a drip painting with a sharpie pen.

Perhaps you have an area of expertise where you can move the state of the art forward.  You dont like mesh import.  We get it.  Move on.  Where can you show your positive side this afternoon?

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@ Vivienne

Linden  LAb wants to make money by upload fees. They did not improve the  platform in a noteworthy way since YEARS, they only scaled. And that#s  it. If you believe in their propaganda, go and adapt to the stone age.

Vivienne, hush up.  LL is not going to make that much from upload fees of mesh.  If you think they are only doing this for the upload fees, you are being super cynical, and are out of touch with how LL really makes their money.

I have a broader view than you can imagine.  My ex-wife and I were programmers at Autodesk in the early 90's (me on R12 and R13, she on Animator Pro).

You seem to be on a rant about meshes and stone age.  I dont see you proposing anything realistic.  I just see a lot of negative.  You say "Did MESH make SL as big as it is?".  Consider this:  How small will SL become without it?

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@ Shockwave writes:

I'd like  to see inworld tools for the meshes myself.  But pragmatically, I know  that's not going to happen.  And before anyone starts screaming about it  and how it's the end of the world, show me the inworld TEXTURE EDITOR  for SL.

 

Exactly.

What makes people think that LL would put a reasonably powerful mesh editor into the viewer?  Would you be willing to wait 6 months to a year while they do?  Don't they have plenty else to do as it is?  What if LL did not have mesh import, and forced you to use an in-world mesh editor, and it was a debacle like the 2.x interface.  Would that make you happy?  It would make me get all teary.  My AV would flood the sim with the salt water tears.  I would grimace.  My neighbors would fret.

The 1.x and 2.x viewer codebases are evolutionary dead ends at this point in time, and it would take them 2 years or more to catch up to the level of a AAA game engine.  Spend some minimal time doing basic research on things such as Unity3D, and you will see why I say that.  Introducing Mesh Import is a stopgap.  It gives SL some extended life, but there are some larger trends in play.  If you are a prim based mom and pop operation depending on SL for an income, and you dont want to take the time to learn something new, mesh is the least of your worries.  Take a step back and survey the landscape.  The SL experience is pretty primitive compared to what could be done, and it is falling behind each day.  When someone like Oz Linden proclaims no 1.x UI on 2.x, it creates an obstacle for the platform as a whole (it kills off lots of developer interest to invest time in SnowStorm).  Look at the experience of learning about meshes as an evolutionary step that will put you in good stead for other platforms, should LL truly blow it.  Be like a Boy Scout, and be prepared!

Be glad for mesh.  It bodes well for machinima and many other areas of the SL experience.  If you are a content creator that is only in it for the money, why are you in still in SL?

I am happy they are providing the capability of importing meshes, and that they are not taking away prims or sculpties;.  The sprectum is increased, and there will be that much more visual diversity in the world.

Know what I have in a sidebar on my resume?  "Never stop learning".  (and no, I dont have a degree... but at 49, I'm much more capable than someone that graduated at 21 and figured "right, now I am all done with school")

Adapt and Thrive.

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Chris Anderson of TED released a TED talk today about the influence of web video.  I think the topic also touches on the desire to express creativity in SL.  It has to do with feedback and friendly competition.

"Invite the crowd, let in the light, dial up the desire".

The coming of mesh is a great thing.  It will push creators to up their game.

http://blog.ted.com/2010/09/14/who-let-this-guy-on-the-ted-stage/

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@ Prokofy says:

Not so with Mesh, that requires 3-D programs that can be expensive

Whoa.. Blender is free.  Are some 3d apps expensive?  Yes.  Maya sure is.

I maintain that this merely widens the spectrum of possible content.  In RL, we have markets for simple, hand crafted goods, as well as those only possible via more expensive production means.

Creators of all classes *should* be enabled.  If someone has made the effort to get good at their craft, why lock them out?

And, conversely, someone who may have been a bit complacent about learning new things (such as an external graphics editor) may well be *inspired* when they see what is possible when meshes come in-world.  If they take that inspiration to learn something new, it takes their expression of creativity to new levels.   Why prevent a possible motivation?

A wider spectrum of building diversity is a good thing.

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Mesh:  Irresistable Force

V2 UI:  Immovable Object

[Introducing Kim Salzer, Our New VP Marketing]

They hired a VP of Marketing that is only now starting to use SL?

That's like hiring an Open Source guru who is new to SL, and who wont listen to any talk about the 1.x UI for SnowStorm.

Oh, wait.  They did that.

Good luck Kim.  If there's one thing you can bring to the table, let it be this: convince the rest of the management to show that they are listening to the residents (example: Display Names).

What you are marketing is a large walled garden.   Know your AOL, CompuServe, and Prodigy history.