Rene Erlanger

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Not sure how it's getting personal - you made a great plug for IMVU - I told you to get your azz over there, so you can start making some money before heavy competition sets in. Sounds like some competition rattles you a bit. I downsized in physical world, when the web commerce started. It would have been incredibly stupid, not to. Everyone started shopping on the web. The folks that thought they could keep a fancy little downtown store with outrageous overhead, well I think most went under big time. I love SL because it's like an incubator. Much less financial risk here, to test things out. I'm testing now, and it's working great - had an awesome weekend in the store. It's not a plug for IMVU...although i have an account overthere (for recon purposes)...it's very much an inferior product. IMO it doesn't begin to compare to Second Life.....plus it's very much a younger crowd but not exclusively. There's more Developers and products listed on IMVU than Second Life......it's left SL in the dust! I highlighted mainly that IMVU grew in every area during a recessionary period whilst SL did not. Dartagan got it absolutely right....the blame lies solely at the feet of LL Management. Those 2 years of M.Linden & Jack Linden running in tandom, practically destroyed SL from ever really growing into something much bigger.....they brought SL to a ginding halt.

Snow Frostwych wrote: Question for Rene..... Does IMVU sell land & have tier? I have no idea about IMVU. The only thing I remember about it were ads for it at a pixel doll site I used to make pixel dolls for & moderate. Nope...it's a different set up. You get like your own environment where you can place a house, furniture, garden etc...they are called Rooms i think and not linked. You just click into that area. IMVU derives most of it's income from their Catalog shopping site, and subscriptions to upgrade to VIP status (you can select your own name then and not "Guest"...plus you're allowed to be a Developer and use their creation tools.) There...you spotted it......their adverts.!!! That's why they grew so big, they ran massive non-stop media campaigns since 2008.

Snow Frostwych wrote: It wasn't that long ago merchants dumped on Eloh Elliot's free skin templates for supposedly killing the skin market....skin makers still going strong aren't they? You can count on one hand how many Skin creators still make serious amount of sales (yes, they cut their prices also).....I could probably name them.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Wow - sounds like you're missing some major opportunities there, Rene. How do you make it on the other retail sites without paying attention to keywords? As you well know...i always do well on major keywords in the In-world search system....no difference now, even with their new OS Lucene Search engine. I have a good strategy for that.......but the traffic has moved on...it's now in the Marketplace Search Engine. When I left SL in March 2011, it was still very good in driving traffic through In-world Search......I still have tons of top positions, but the traffic has dropped by about 50%.....which tells me they've moved over to Marketplace. Therefore i now focus only on popular keywords and use less and less secondaries.....no point anymore! (in terms of traffic arriving at shop from TPs) Marketplace uses the same Search Engine but uses different criteria to rank.......but it wouldn't take long to figure it out!

Dartagan Shepherd wrote: To all of it, but especially this ... bingo. They're still misfiring on startup mentality and overly complex models when in any other industry but tech, it would be an amateur mistake to apply overly complex business models to customers with a lemon-aid stand model. I learned this literally at 16 years old. Had they kept it simple with land and scaled around that, and focused on the core product, we'd still be growing like IMVU. But no, give it to a bunch of employees and tell them to be creative. It's creative, all right. And declining. You said it! I find it a crying shame really....it's a case of missed opportunities....I believe Second Life could have been so much more than what it has ended up. It really is a superior product than say IMVU......yet look at the growth curves of both them....its not like we have to pay a subscription fee to join Second life (like for WOW).....it's free to join.

Madeliefste Oh wrote: As soon as you become a paying member in IMVU you get freebies thrown at you all the time. Not directly by merchants, but by IMVU. LL could use the head of marketing from IMVU. IMVU didn't grow because the have a better or more easy product then SL, IMVU is far behind SL. They just know better how to attrack people and have better strategies to make people return and stay. Yes, IMVU provides freebies to it's members....but so does LL through it's Library folders. I would not say bombarded as IMVU main income is really from it's Catalog shopping site.....so no way would they damage that "golden goose" I stated that IMVU is an inferior product to Second life.....that's what makes the situation all the more laughable. IMVU grew because the spent tons of marketing & advertising dollars on website campaigns since 2008, before the recession began. It never let up.....and that's the main reason why it grew by nearly 400%. In 2008 IMVU had less peak logins than SL.....now it has over twice our number. Their Management did a great job growing that platform.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Yes, I know Rene, sorry, just couldn't remember where you were from. The way some people talk around here, it's like they don't have a clue what's going on with any economy. Have to assume they are sheltered - not really sure where that is, though. I don't care about IMVU. I did not set up there. No reason to. I've got an etsy, ebay, and brick and mortar biz going on, and you know which one shows the most promise? Second Life. Even with all of it's current issues. If you're so enamored with IMVU, then get your azz over there. I don't see what the issue is. And if you can't handle a smidgin' of competition, then you better do it now. Merchants are undercutting each other in every other venue I'm selling in. Big Time. Not sure what you're trying to get at there. Freebies are an excellent marketing tool. You will probably do best if you take your marketing outside of world. Plenty of experimentation and observation to determine that. Did you ever come up with some straighforward examples of some freebies killing some businesses? on marketplace? I sure can't find one searching random keywords. Well IMVU is 3D VW environment just like Second Life.....I want to destroy this argument and the necessity for having to have an abundance of freebies......and show you that a rival VW platform can grow and grow and grow....during a RL recessionary period without the additional inducements of freebies. (I really get tired of reading such nonsense.....SL did just fine during 2004 to 2007 without the grid being flooded with freebies) The proof is in the pudding, 900 Estate sims less in Jan 2012 compared to Jan 2011 a loss of 2.5 Mill USD tiers for 2012.....a good percentage of those 900 sims would have been commerical. You yourself even downsized....take a look at the state of some of those Mainland continents ! This is culmination of zero growth to the SL grid during the last 3 years,, increased Merchants pool, less consumers and 3 years of freebies, dollarbies, Midnight Mania, Hunts ...all coming together. (Freebies is just one contributory factor...but not the sole reason) I don't have to join IMVU...i'm just pointing out some harsh realities.....you're the one that had to downsize your SL land holdings to remain profitable.....I didn't have to,... so let's not start getting all personal!

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: I've got about 3000 combinations of product that are not listed on marketplace. I'm not really sure what your number has to do with anything. If I have some time tomorrow, I might just make some lime green glass stuff and get that stuff up. Or a Holy Cow Sofa. Maybe someone will beat me to the punch. If so, High Fives. I'm luvin' that Holy Cow Catsuit. I didn't want one of those yesterday, but I sure want one now. Not sure if I can wear it in the store, though. There's still place for ANY ITEM IMAGINEABLE. Please stop telling all of these merchants that the market is saturated and untouchable. That is simply not true. Not even close. Where the heck is the lime green glass? "Not every In-world Merchant lists their products on Marketplace" If they want to make some money, why the heck don't they have stuff listed? Huh? I pointed it out, because one could likely find lime-green grass in-world....infact i have one such terrain texture....it's very lime green (bright!) Sure you can make "lime green grass" and load it up onto Marketplace.....but really, how many people do you think are going to use the search term "lime green grass" during a given month? If it somehow reaches double figures, which I very much doubt.....please inform us all. Yes, there are gazillion (obscure) product terms that could be unique in Marketplace.....those are easy enough to conjure up. I could list "Swedish buffet tables" or "Bowl of flour" or "Egyptian daybed" or "Meditation Pouffe" or "Water well" or "Art Deco Dresser"......those are all items i could list and tons more.......but what's the point if those search terms are unlikely to be searched on by potential consumers?. Between those above mentioned items...i might be lucky if i got 10 clicks/ views in a given month.....and that's primaraily due to the keywords "Egyptian, Bowl and Art Deco".

Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Don't resent the people, but LL has created a model that those who pay must support those who do not, and that's not fair. [Edited for typo] I recently wrote some numbers down in a General Discussions thread ....and through some rough calculations provided from LL data which was publically available until Sept 2010......that about 25% of the monthly logins support (financially or creatively) the rest of the grid who play for free and not contribute towards the SL economy. Without SL growth during the last 3 years.....one can see the obvious strains it's having, particularly on In-world commerical lands.........yet IMVU has proved that one can grow it's membership in a worldwide recessionary period. They didn't just grow by a small percentage....but a massive 300- 400% !!!

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: No, Rene, I really don't get what you meant. Perhaps it is because your demographics are different. I don't remember where you're from, but in the US....there is a huge crisis with the economy right now. I can't even begin to explain how drastic it is for some sections of the country. I am not talking east or west coast. The EU countries have just as big a problem as US...and some of it's member countries are in an even worst position. Have you not seen the prosperity riots in Spain, Greece, France and Italy.? Even UK and Germany are feeling it. That aside....1.7 millions products listed on Second Life's Marketplace ...versus IMVU's Catalog 6 million products without any Freebies. Since 2008, Second Life concurrency and peak-login figures has not grown...despite Land being made cheaper to buy and supplemented by a mountain of freebies for any potential new resident. During that same period, IMVU has grown 4-fold with 3 million unique avatars logging in monthly (SL only 850k)....with Peak logins of 150k (SL only 60-70k) ......under the same "Real Life" economic conditions!! Second Life is free to join as is IMVU....with the latter being the inferior product! So 1 platform continues to grow in a recession, its equivalent Shopping site continues to grow....and it doesn't offer Freebies, whilst the other platform (SL) remains stagnant. There lies the root of the problem and hence why freebies have become prevalent. More competing Merchants in SL with no growth in concurrency (or Consumer pool)....so Merchants are having to undercut each other to be seen or make sales......it's not done for the goodness of mankind ...or because of the RL economic conditions! Had Second Life continued to grow like it did up to 2007.....you'd see a different type of Marketplace. Look I don't rely on Marketplace for income...all I'm trying to highlight is that Freebies weren't really necessary in SL....but rather it was forced upon (as a kind of marketing tool) due Second Life's lack of growth ...and lack of effective in-game marketing tools. The same can be said with price dumping.. The people that can still afford to pay their ISP connection & Electricity bills....are still playing WOW, Second Life or IMVU or whatever ...and spending money on them.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: 150,000 Building Components, and not one is using the phrase lime green glass. Holy Cow. Vacant Spot wide open on page one for the "Holy Cow" phrase. Get yourself a Holy Cow made in the next 30 minutes. You don't have to sell even one, just slap the thing up there, and you've got page one billing tomorrow. No freebies there. Slap 50L on it, and looks like you've got a winner. That's because not every product in-world will be listed on Marketplace....e.g we have about 500/ 600 items in our Furniture store that are not listed on Marketplace....and we have a lot of stuff which are either unique or at least niche,(Renaissance period furniture, Tibetan and Old European Empires as examples) Not every In-world Merchant lists their products on Marketplace Moving forward...there's still space for unusual items, Games and innovative products....as well as top quality items.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Someone who considers themselves a "farmer" gave me tomatos all summer. It did not put Wal-Mart out of business. _________________ Come one Mickey, I think you know what i meant....of course an isolated case is not going to close down your local Walmart....but if all the Farmers in that area decided to feed the local population of that town (realistically never going to happen) then surely all the shops including Walmart selling food items in that particular Town are going to feel it on their bottom lines. It's an analogy...maybe a non-realistic one at that! :matte-motes-wink:

Good post Madeliefste...although i still think freebies, dollarbies do impact the OVERALL market......e.g not every guy wants to own 10 sets of shoes.....2 or 3 quality freebies will do just fine :matte-motes-wink:! Yes, there are more skin sellers...but that's partly due to that sector changing a lot over the last few years. In the earlier days, skin artists created Skins from scratch...and there were very few that could do it well! . Nowadays there full perm skins with PSD files being sold that allows you to develop a series of skins relatively quickly. ..by just adding few different coloured lipsticks or eyeliners. Bingo! , you ve become a skin creator and can sell your skins for a 100L a piece.....even though not being responsible for creating the original base skin. Same can be said of a lot of furniture sellers that no longer build the actual product....as they can buy sculpty packs and simply texture it thereafter and sell it for 50L!! So the ball game has changed a lot...creators versus assemblers....hence more Merchants in the market than before. If you're an "Assembler" you can churn out more products in quicker time and set at much lower sale price....than a Creator who produces his own sculpty or prim-work and then has to texture it. (maybe create their own textures too) --------------------------------- This requirement of feeding the monster with Freebies & Dollarbies in Second Life is a fallacy.......IMVU which has 3-4 times as many monthly logins (3 million Avatars) doesn't rely on their products being made free....yet their membership continues to grow, year in and year out! Look at Catalog (IMVU's version of Marketplace) with 6 million products...no freebies there for the consumer. The Content provider might foresake his own commissions (Credits) to make it as cheap as possible to the Consumer....but it's still not Free. IMVU Consumers have different ways of earning "free Credits"....pretty much like we have Sploders or camping or in-world contests. These acquired free "Credits" can then be used to buy IMVU products...but again, those IMVU products themselves are not Free.....and they have members as young as 13 playing IMVU. That's why I think, this equivilant of an EU mountain size of Freebies in SL is a nonsense.......it's become a bad "habit" over the years, and kind of expected by both Consumers & Merchants alike!

I heard that you can pay a one-off fee to have the Meerooo as a Pet....and they won't require any food thereafter.

Ceka - Thanks for your support to in-world shopping! :matte-motes-smile: Yep, that's what i meant earlier by finding new Sims and new gems i.e Stores you never knew that existed.

Luna Bliss wrote: By a freebie mentality I mean something like this: Anyway, I dropped a scene on someone as a freebie, and she complained because I didn't include all the scenes (like 30 or so scenes, all of this taking well over a year of full-time work to create). That's what i'm talking about....when mentioning Consumer expectations has changed over the years due to the influx of Freebies. I hear similar stories all the while from other content providers.....it's laughable that people have the front to moan/ complain about the Freebies they recieved!

Nefertiti Nefarious wrote: Let's see ... people pay hard currency but use no resources. For LL that is not a problem! That's not strictly true in accounting terms.....a Sim and thereby any plot of land on it, are switched ON 24/7 thus appearing constantly online and visible. Software loaded onto Server attracts many associated costs (software costs, licenses, electricity, storage costs, maintenance costs, insurance costs, networking costs etc etc)......all of these "DIrect costs" can be apportioned to the number of Sims on World Map loaded onto these Servers, therefore by default every single plot of land on that grid. Yes, even that tiny 512 sqm plot to keep it online 24/7, most certainly use resources as well as attracting related costs to it.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: I don't see any indication on marketplace that the freebies are killing anyone's business. I see people killing their own business. 3+ years of quality freebies hitting the grid..be it from Marketplace or in-world Stores, has had an impact on the SL economy. You're kidding yourself if you don't think so...not only does it "eventually" effect pricing (i.e downwards), but changing the perception of SL consumers (especially new ones) that SL products should be cheap or even free! Can you imagine that sort of scenario playing out in Real life (hypothetically as there are always real costs attached)...even the likes of Walmart or Tesco would have a hard time staying in business if farmers started giving away their products freely! To a lesser extent due to economies of scale, large stores like Walmart, Tesco and other Superstores have driven small local or family owned businesses out of lot of towns ....as these Superstores are able to offer quality products and quality food at much cheaper prices. (not to mention wider variety too)........so why shouldn't quality freebies & dollarbies eventually have an impact on the virtual marketplace too? 3+ years of flooding the grid with quality Freebies is bound to take it's toll eventually.

That is true...but there are tons of plots on Mainland that are owned yet have no activity.....where the owner hasn't logged into SL for long periods of time. They just keep paying the tiers via their credit card or alternative funding source.

Well you know LL's policy on such things...with each server upgrade its fix a few bugs and create a few new ones!

Arwen..it's a SL server bug.....there's a workaround! When you log in next time.....block/ mute a prim object from your menu or Pie menu (depending which Viewer you use).....you'll see.all the offline stuff will come flooding through as well as notecards and other sent items !

Luna Bliss wrote: Having some freebies seems ok - I'm bothered by a freebie mentality when people expect everything for free however. That really became prominent from 2008 onwards Should be use to it by now! lol

It's already happening...where tons of commercial sims and lands have been closed. Ask any of the large Estate owners that have Commerical zone sims or Mixed Zone sims in their inventory....as to what types of land are being abandoned! Marketplace gets too much visibility via their Linden viewers.....new residents will invariably tend to use MP to shop as opposed to using in-world Search for in-world stores.The only ones that might not be effected as much.... are those selling Buildings, Furniture & landscaping products (Trees, off-sim products, waves etc), where it's still a good idea to inspect the products.

If say you spend 100,000 L for a rare Meeroo......how does one ever recover such an investment? Will that rare breed have a better chance of producing more rare Meeroos? I'm just tyring to get my head round spending a 6-figure amount for an animated animal. What makes that rare breed valuable........should you sell it on for a higher amount?

Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Assure you the only agenda is that when everyone else is successful, we are too. The more people in SL that can be successful, the more we can be. Perhaps that doesn't make me a prince, but it does put me in your corner, rather than advocating for the company that keeps letting me down. The bolded text is very true for most SL businesses...especially breedables and gaming.