Hyperplexed

Since there is no other adequate category specifically about shapes, and because shapes can be in some context considered animation (or more accurately, bone manipulation), I'm posting this thread in here. Apologies if not the right place. So my question is simple... Can shapes have a "copyright"? It is just a bunch of values, that can even be exported and re-imported as an XML file, which not only makes it easy to recreate whichever shape you want, with full perms, as long as you own it, but I see really no point in even having a shape that is no-mod. But I digress... The reason for this post, is not because I want to "steal" someone else's shape and then sell it as a standalone product. It is because I want to have a HUD slider deformer, that will work best with some specific body settings. So, in an effort to make life easier for those users that have very little knowledge or don't pay much attention to detail, my goal was to provide some shape templates, using the head settings of some very well known head brand, to have them as a starting point... Goal is just to have the same body proportions, for each specific head the user might use, to make their life simpler, because more often than not, I see some ppl using shapes that make the body or the head look weird. Pretty innocuous right? Out of politeness, I decided to contact a specific well-known head brand, and color me shocked, when contacting a "CSR", and explaining the situation, telling me that I would have to at least change a single digit on each one of the slider on their shapes, in order to do that. And just as a reminder, the body settings would always be different, and my own, so, it would not be the same shape either. And my product would not be the shape either... So does that mean they own that specific slider value??? I could care less if ppl re-use those shapes, because that will not be in any way, the product (just as the shape that comes with said head brand, was, to quote the CSR, a "starting point"). This also opens the question further, because the appearance XML, exports not only the shape sliders, but also a bunch of other crap, even textures. So, would I also need to "change a single digit" in other settings too? I find all this, quite honestly, all a bit idiotic, and that is to put it mildly and in a polite manner... While I can respect the assessment of the situation of this particular "CSR", I find it a bit odd to say the least, but I will abide to it unless I have some evidence that this decision has no foundation on anything other than ignorance perhaps? Is there any concrete documentation regarding this particular issue? Thanks in advance, to any and all input!

I wont move, I have moved. But like I said this is not about my particular situation as an individual it is an issue that affects a group of individuals, all of them who are now, no longer able to use a significant space amount above or below. The object is a huge linked object, which the root prim is a tiny prim. The whole size of the linked object is around 960x960. It is not counting as prim size, no... however it is counting as rendering cost for everyone that happens to be in the radius range of the camera setting. Which means that there will a dead zone in which no one can rez things either up or down, under the risk of increasing the rendering costs, which in that platform's case is over 1 million (1.380.409). See the new attachment and read more about it on: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Mesh/Rendering_weight . If the platform is at that height covering the entirety of the sim, it will hinder the ability to stay away from other objects which is one of the advantages of having platforms in the sky. If for example your camera is set to 256, and you have a platform at 2500, you would want at least to have nothing at 2500+256 and 2500-256, to avoid your camera from seeing it. If ALL the tenants wish to do the same, (and let's hypothetically consider a land with 4x4 parcels, which makes up to 16 tenants), and if you want to keep at the very least platforms above 1024 only, then if all tenants will have only between all 16 platforms a 384 distance. 256 up + 256 down = 512 distance. And then what? How do you solve that issue? And when establishing rules, should you give the same rights to everyone? And that would mean allowing every single tenant to be allowed to do the same. And again, why should I (or others) be subject to other tenants will to be able to rez at any specific height? What happens if everyone does that until someone runs out of space? Yes I have brought this to the attention of the Landlord, but that is besides the point of the thread. I'm going to repeat this again. This is not me about as an individual or about my no-longer existing problem (moved). This is simply to debate whether this would be a determining factor on whether this would be a deal breaker for you or not. If not that is absolutely fine ofc! If you feel ok on having neighbours spilling into your and everyone else's space in the region, that is absolutely fine, just go on and say "I'm fine with this". We all are different and have different points of view. And I want to hear people's opinions. 😃 Not at all, and again, not specified in the Covenant. The object also doesn't belong to the landlord, but to one of the tenants. EDIT: Going to remind again that NONE of this was specified in the covenant. It's like advertising you're being leased a building with several floors, but forgetting to mention there are tenants occupying some floors that cannot be moved.

A fair reasonable expectation, no doubt, to not having constraints on something that is not set as a rule. But isn't the expectation of you being allowed to build anywhere you wish, within the boundaries of the parcel you rent, takes precedence? Why should the person being encroached, be the one being limited on where to build, within his own land? The parcel is deeded to that person/group for a reason, it actually exists on a Database saying "this piece of land is leased to X" (I also had to buy the land in order to do so btw). It is not one of those places you have a system like Casper or whatever, with multiple tenants over the same parcel. If that did not meant anything... why even have a system operating that way? If parcel boundaries are irrelevant, then it makes more sense to use a system like that to control the Land Impact, without any expectation to have a parcel. If people are ok with that, then they might as well go rent on those cheap places where they have multiple tenants on the same parcel. And is it not better to respect your neighbours and not build into their land? This is not just a tree hanging over another person's land, I could live with that as long as it respected the rest of the scenery, and didn't prevented using some other object or go right through a wall or something. This was a deliberated action from one of the tenants, knowing full well that would spill into his neighbours parcels. And as I pointed out, let's say that there are 16 tenants on that sim. What if all the 16 tenants decide to do the same? Is it a sustainable thing to allow? This basically gives the opportunity of everyone to landscape a full sim, without having to pay for one. Sure, they will have LI limitations, but how sweet it is to have your own mini-homestead, without seeing the neighbours ugly buildings? Just my thoughts... Ultimately this is a business decision, but would you like to be on a region where rules run amok and tenants can do whatever they feel like? All over the region?

Not for me, this rule was not at all specified on the Covenant, and I only realized this after being there for 2 months and a half. The landlord did gave me a discount but because I have helped in the the past with scripts, and solving issues with his scripts, even without pay (I like helping ppl, what can I say...), and whenever I had a friend asking me for a place to rent, I would advice his business out of the kindness of my heart because I wanted to see his community thrive. EDIT: The landlord did commit to add the rule that every tenant can build at any height, spilling to other parcels, once I exposed the situation for him, but did not do so. Just talk... EDIT 2: I Want to say though... the purpose of this thread is not my personal experience, but rather, discuss what is appropriate or not, or what is an expectation when rules are not specified. While I completely agree that each Sim owner is completely entitled to create his own set of rules, what is a good code of conduct, when such rules are not specified, and in this particular case what is to be expected on the particular subject of land encroachment. I hope it gets clear. EDIT 3: Also to make it clear... That object IS NOT from the sim owner, it is from one of the tenants!

The implication from my last post is that that option is disabled on the region, so no, I couldn't do that. It is an option that needs to be enabled via console, so nothing that can be done as a mistake. And if a sim owner enables that option, then it is with the intention of ppl to use it. Why would a sim owner do that if he wouldn't?

The region must have enabled an option for that. It is on LL Covenants: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Parcel_encroachment

Well I'm new, so allow me the right for being shocked? Or may I not? But more importantly, this is a forum, and as the definition very simply explains, it is a place to debate on a particular issue, so my question is, aside from the fact that it is a private region and everything can happen (and yes within the confinements of the ToS), what makes it a plausible rule. And mind you, this specific rule is not even specified on the Covenant rules, there is absolutely nothing expressing that tenants may OR may not spill their objects into other tenants lands. But here is a GREAT post I read sometime ago which is a very wise point (regardless of exactly what is being considered here, this is just common sense that can be applied to anything: So what if, all tenants decided to do the same? Obviously you cannot play favourites (lol) so, how do you solve the issue? What if every tenant decides to rez on his land, EVEN if at different heights, a 960x960 object that would just end up being too close to everyone else? Thoughts?

This is a forum, it's not for governance, or to ask for assistance or help. If I was looking for assistance, I would have chosen the appropriate channel. Being a forum, means it is a place, for a wide range of topics. It can be to try to get help from other users, share advices, or experiences. Is it wrong? Just scroll through and you will see other threads without any real purpose. In this case, it was simply to express somewhat shock how some people find this acceptable. May I not express my thoughts about it on a public forum? That is the purpose, not rocket science guys: forum a meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. "we hope these pages act as a forum for debate"

Well, it is a private region, with it's own covenant, so the owner can do whatever he wants ofc. But in LL covenants for example, that is absolutely not allowed (much less a 960m2 object that encompasses several regions). It is fun to see though, how... "creative" ppl can get! 😃

I'm just gonna leave this in here because why the hell not... Context... a region is 256x256, created a prim that was 64x64 on my land for reference and raised to the level of the object, to avoid perspective distortion. Yes, that is an object not only encroaching all the tenants at 2500 height, but also with an estimated 960m2. How is this even allowed, it beats me! And basically it's a huge middle finger to any other tenant that may want to rez at that height, by her majesty the queen! 😃

I'm in the proccess of moving my stuff between 2 different sims. The original sim shut down over 3h ago, still down. New sim I'm moving to, restarted after that and it's already up and running. I was holding the move to happen post weekly maintenance, and currently "stuck". I have submitted a ticket.

I don't recall saying it was foolproof or not, maybe you have misread the post? I mentioned a way to know for certain, if it is a different channel, when you get the message saying "different version". As your own message implies, it may not always get that, in which case, it is inconclusive. *shrugs* And on that I added: which means, using your own words, I have monitored them. I'm sorry if my english is not clear enough, not a native speaker =(

That is actually easy to figure out. go to a region that you are certain that restarts on Tuesdays (Main Channel). If you see the warning that you have entered in a different simulator version, then it means that the channel of the region you left, is on a RC Channel (restarts on wednesdays). I have a "list" of regions I know that they are on RC, so I always go there while I wait for restart on Tuesdays. So far, has never failed me.

Yes and for the past 3-4 weeks someone other than me, the owner or the other manager, somoen asked to restart the sim on Monday after 6AM SLT? I doubt, and if any resident could ask a restart just when it feels like, it would be pretty silly, if there is no problem with the region. I spend almost all my online time in said region, and I would know about any problem, and could restart if a problem was indeed happening. Regardless, the region owner already made a ticket last week to understand what is happening, because as I said this is like the 3rd or 4th week in a row this happens. Restarts on Mondays after 6AM, no one with the ability to restart the region, other than Linden Labs as done so.

Yep, restarted yesterday, and also again today, just now, as predicted. I'm all up for doing more than one restart per week, as long as it is scheduled and predictable and I dont see any benefits of making 2 restarts, one day after another. Don't understand either how 2 restarts will help with either performance or reduce the stress. If the plan is for example, restart the simulators in different days to reduce the stress, then someone might have forgotten to remove them from the list restarting on Tuesdays too. Something just doesn't add up.

Again, today both sims I manage restarted, after 6AM SL time, even though the restart is scheduled only for tomorrow, and I'm sure it will happen tomorrow too. This is at least the 3rd week I'm observing this behavior. I am sure other sims have restarted aswell. *shrugs*

Some did, some didnt. I manage 2 different regions both on Main, one restarted, the other didnt... and yet... both restarted yesterday without scheduling, one of which 2 times. Both had under 10 days uptime, so I can't figure out this randomness.

I understand and all those are valid criticisms against the Aesthetic, I dont think my Catwa blends that bad but also not at 100%. And speaking of neck, that is also one of Kario's problem... because it keeps the neck the same thickness to respect the head/neck "connection" (I believe) when you try the Flex version on, it just looks like a twig that is about to break. For me, the whole Flex body just looks like those bodybuilders wanna be's that inject synthol to look bigger. They look completely out of proportion and not aesthetically pleasing at all. No self respecting bodybuilder (or people who like the aesthetics of it) would want to look like that. I wholeheartedly agree with your comment Paladin, you are spot on, as far as I'm concerned Yes, I will also add the internet there, because of all the misinformation it has. It is up to the person to want to buy a separate head and/or AO or not, it does not add any detriment to the product itself. You mention on your profile that you hate seeing people with short arms. I hate that too... but is that the problem of the avatar they are using? OBVIOUSLY not! Because then by the same logic, the feature to even allow you to change shape would be something bad, according to your reasoning. Heck... let's even take a step ahead, and make everything UN-EDITABLE, in order to not give people the possibility to change anything. You cant' blame the product just because you have people who have poor skills on building a decent avatar.

Aside from the skin which looks good, please elaborate on how the Kario is better than the Aesthetic. Here is my informed judgement AND personal opinion: PRO Aesthetic arguments Good Topology: Custom and unique topology on the mesh, with a nice flow Good Topology: The mesh will more easily bend properly, and not create jagged ridges Good Topology: will prevent too much pixel stretching Good Topology: The mesh density is optimal and not overly dense, and more optimized, making the proccess requirements lower (this obviously adds up, as more non-optimized meshes are on your viewport) Both mesh and textures display anatomically correct musculature 17 total texture maps: textures able to have a lot of detail Modify mesh, can be "BOMified", as long as you know what you're doing. Setting up as BOM will increase performance, and reduces complexity by 20%. You can also link all parts together to use only 1 slot Full body with head and AO included, at less than 75% of Kario's price tag Anti Aesthetic arguments 17 total texture maps: Too many textures, requires a bigger render effort 17 total texture maps: BOM limitations and constrictions as mentioned on previous post Non SL Default UV: Creators will just stick with developing what is more profitable and less time consuming to create, so they will just make things for SL Default UV, which can targetd different body markets Poor Mesh Dev Kit (I'm sure this is the main reason why creators dont want to bother creating meshes for Aesthetic) The brand/shop/creator is a bit too much inactive, and doesn't engage with community Difficult to achieve a 100% good neck blend when using a different head Pro Kario arguments SL Default UVs: Allows for textures that already exist to be re-used Single mesh body (I think) BOM able Neck and head seam match better Anti Kario arguments SubDivision based Topology: seams to me it's nothing more than the default SL mesh that was subdivided. Anything but optimized, pointless overly dense mesh SL Default UVs: Limitation on amount of surface for textures. Cannot make skins as detailed/will look more blurry Both mesh and textures present very bad and inaccurate anatomy, ranging from mild to severe issues No-Modify Because the neck was made to match heads with the same edge loop , Flex's neck looks way to thin and out of proportion So, please feel free to add objective reasons to why Aesthetic or Kario is better or not. For me the biggest problem remains the fact that Kario is anatomically inaccurate representing muscles that do not exist or so grossely done they stop looking entirely like it is a human body. And I'm not talking about exaggeration... The main problem is really how muscles are drawn, like the Erector Spinae. For you or others, you have other priorities I'm sure.

I tought about chimming in on this... Kario is bad. Maybe not bad for the majority of the SL population, but if you know your anatomy, you wouldn't even poke at it with a stick. Sorry about being "mean" but there is a minimal quality an artist should provide, specially for a "fairly" expensive object. #SorryNotSorry. It has been all discussed in here I believe... Collar bones too low... shoulders too low... biceps that look like he was injecting synthol... pecs with implants... ballooned Gluteus that don't properly connect to leg muscles... etc etc etc... I could go on and on... but nothing, and I mean ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, beats the "I have abs on my back" Erector Spinae. This is what happens when an artist gets lazy and doesn't create by using references. For me it seems the creator just suffers from the "muscles are just shapeless blobs" syndrome, and just couldn't be bothered to look how those muscles look in real life. For those who are using the argument "not everyone wants to look human!", I can't take this argument seriously, because there is a substantial difference between being anatomically accurate or not and creative choices done for stylistic reasons. EVEN if you are a furry or whatever! The Kario has problems at the anatomy level, not at the stylistic level. EVEN if you want to have overly exaggerated muscles, you will want it to look... right. If you feel like it is ok to have abs on your back, then why not to have a mouth where your belly button is and eyes in place of nipples. If those making that argument about people not being human, please show me the item I just mentioned on the market, thank you in advance... The "abs on back" make it outright disgusting, I seriously can't even look at it without feeling irked... again, #SorryNotSorry. The Aesthetic on the other hand, is an extremely well crafted mesh... not only it is very well done anatomically, but the mesh is technically far superior than any other body I've seen on SL. Textures are somewhat stylized and not so realistic, but they are anatomically accurate and pretty good. I look at all the other bodies in wireframe to see the mesh (or at UV Layouts when available) and I go... "WTF is happening with that topology". I'm not even going to point out the endless flaws on all the other meshes because I would risk my self on writing a novel... Do I think the Aesthetic and his creator deserves some criticisms? Yes, I do... and that includes design, technical and marketing aspects regarding the Aesthetic. But the thing I want to clear out in this post is... The Aesthetic can be EASILY converted to BOM, even without needing to re-do the UV Mapping: The Aesthetic has the following textures: Front Torso Back Torso Hip Left Arm Right Arm Left Leg Right Leg Left Hand Right Hand Left Foot Right Foot Face Head Scalp and Ears Hair Base Eyes (used over SL eyes, not a "mesh") Mouth and Teeth Neck Blender In contrast, BOM only allows for 11 different textures. The thing is though... You don't need to have the full body as BOM. That already happens with other products. LeLutka eyes, by default are not BOM... Athletic, has 5 mesh layers... 4 non-BOM and one BOM, and a whole bunch of others for neck, hands and feet. With this in mind, and even if you reserve 3 slots for head parts, you are still left with 8. You can very well, run a partial Aesthetic BOM Body up to slot 7., to which you could have BOM layers to add body hair and tattoos. This would obviously only work withn the same UV layout of the Aesthetic itself, but so what?? LeLutka did the same, by evolving the UV into something that is non-SL Default-ish, which is the right step, and it is still BOM. BOM is agnostic when it comes to UVs... it just couldn't care less... But, Aesthetic creator has done some design mistakes too IMHO. I dont see the need for example to have 2x hand and 2x foot textures, each at 1024x1024px. While I understand that is a skin area that is rich in more detail, he could just merge them into 4x 512x512px, which would then be used by the 8th slot still available from the 11. You still have 3 free for head (12, 13 and 14). The rest, doesnt "need" to be BOM. The problem might only be then, in having to juggle the slots you can use in the body versus on the head if you are using another head. Lelutka EvoX has probably more. BOM is technically something we should all strive to use, but not only as users but also as creators. As I mentioned, the Athletic for example, is carrying 5x the body mesh. While full transparency might not have that much impact on rendering, it is still far from something being optimized, it is data that your viewer has to download. I would love to see LL expand the amount of BOM slots we could use. 3 texture maps was good 10 years ago maybe... but not anymore, and it's time to dump the "SL Default Map" crap. And with this said, I'm going to point out that the Aesthetic body is MODIFY-able, thus allowing you to convert it to BOM "easily". If the creator would allow me to, I would do it freely for him, free of charge, so he could distribute it as a free "update" of sorts. But considering that everyone seems to have a hard time in trying to contact him, and having done myself for another matter without any success, I'm not going to bother. All this Kario craze... is just hype... I doubt the majority of ppl using Aesthetic, will adopt it. While there seemed to be a handful of them popping around once it was released, I still don't see that many (thankfully) and I've talked with other ppl who have said they bought just for the sake of buying it, but wont use it, or others that wont bother buying. So far I think I only know 2 people who have switched from Aesthetic to Kario, and I know a lot of ppl with Aesthetic. A LOT!

Seems like it was postponed for tomorrow... https://status.secondlifegrid.net/incidents/njrxdnzh2htr In the meantime, here I was all day waiting for the restart! LOL. Nini everyone 😃

I know it can... you know it can... but go try having that discussion with a "regular" person. Because according to their gospel, THOU SHALL NOT USE BOM WITH NON SL DEFAULT UVS! I'm not even kidding: So, I just quit trying to educate people. I just muted all groups where I used to help, because people think they know better and I don't want to have dumb discussions or be insulted.

I wholeheartedly agree with this assessment. Just today I found myself quitting from a group, where I had the dumbest discussions about technical stuff... a guy insisting that scripts by themselves increase complexity... or the countless discussions I had about BOM being agnostic when it comes to UVs, and that BOM can be used regardless if a mesh has "SL Default UVs" or not. I am just absolutely done with trying to educate ppl. I'm truly sick of it. There is nothing wrong about being ignorant, we all are ignorant on something. But I don't understand why people that clearly know nothing about what they are talking about cannot admit they are wrong, even when providing them with the documention on these matters, produced by Linden Labs. I just can't... I've encountered countless people on the internet that suffer from the Dunning-Krueger effect, but nowhere near like in SL. It is uncanny. I'm not sure if my avatar fits on your category, but the overly muscular avatar was a stylistic choice, not because I don't know the human body (Fashion Design degree, which obviously branches to subjects such as ergonomy and anthropometry). I do have a pet peeve when it comes to proportions though, and I hate seeing avatars with T-Rex Syndrome... Most people do not realize that the arms span from fingertip to fingertip is the same as their height, which is clearly visible in the Vitruvian Man by Leonardo Da Vinci. I never say anything because I don't want to argue about that with anyone, but I find the little short arms quite disturbing. Overall, I feel a bit disenchanted with SL. I have been a gamer all my life, since I was a kid, I have always helped other gamers modding their games, for free and because I like to educate people, it gives me a sense of accomplishment. But in SL, when I try to do it, I am barraged with attacks and insults, as if my good will, decades long experience with 3D and working with game engines is worth nothing. It is truly frustrating and disappointing, and I decided today I will no longer try to help anyone in SL. I'm done.