[Can't sign in to secondlife.com Dashboard.]

So I filed a ticket, restarted my PC and let firefox do an update. Apparently it is now working. I have no idea which of the things I did worked but at least it finally went through.

[Can't sign in to secondlife.com Dashboard.]

I am having this same problem still from yesterday.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

1 hour ago, KanryDrago said:

I think the numbers are nothing to do with the viewer, I think it is more to do with the fact people are used to having things to do thrust at them in most games. The most common thing I here from newbies about why they are leaving is "I just don't know what to do here. I have worked out how to move, dress etc but now what should I be doing?". Obviously minecraft is an exception. Games generally give direction and purpose. Sl isn't like that, nor is it a game, nor should it become one.

Agreed. SL isn't a game but then that leaves the question. "What is it?" and "How can they market it?"

Well all want LL to be profitable with SL.  I'm slowly understanding how much trouble they've been having in marketing SL and retaining new users.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

I am curious as to what professional UI designers would come up with for SL. Even if just redoing bits and pieces of it to give us an idea.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

19 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

I'm not up to speed, what was that fiasco?

It was LL wanting to reduce basic accounts number of groups to 35. Claiming it that people having too many groups was a strain on their systems? Something like that.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

19 minutes ago, KanryDrago said:

Maybe I somehow missed it, did the op ever mention why she thinks more people should use the LL viewer?

It relates to the group fiasco we had last week and got me thinking. We want LL to improve SL and sometimes that requires new things, to innovate. Their only way to do that is through their viewer and server side updates. Many as you can see in this thread just don't like the base viewer and prefer another. So how is LL suppose to give us new fancy visuals if no one is there to try it and give constructive feedback.

In an age of Fortnite, Minecraft, Skyrim and fallout 4 and so on. How is SL still so far behind in terms of numbers. In a game where you could be anything with avatar customization being so far above all the others, how are we behind still? Can't be the adult content; Nutaku is a gaming company specializing in just that and they are making mad money. Enough so to invest $10m in game developers to make adult games.

My thoughts lead me back to the viewer and how if LL tried to modernize their UI to mimic more modern games they would get immense backlash and just wasted their money trying. So... that lead me to ask this question.

 

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

4 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Strangely enough direct tp'ing within a region is usually the other thing people disable (because their land their rules presumably, right?) and believe me, if that is enabled, I use it.  However, there is no override for that setting that I am aware of.

I don't have to make a case with anyone, I have a solution and I have never encountered an event that was worth going to that banned anyone for doing this so far.  Nobody listens anyway because nobody wants to admit that it makes no difference and put forward pointless straw-man arguments to justify it.  I have been there.

Respect is earned and people don't get that by turning off things that don't matter "just 'cause I'm in charge".  If I am not wanted at a place in the way that I prefer to operate my avatar, I am OK with that and I will be sent home or leave.

The thing that most fail to understand is that many, many people have left SL because things like this are frustrating when you want to go places, they are busy and people turn off things that might help.  What is the point of building a sim for an event that people cannot move around in?  For shopping it might as well be on the marketplace and for everything else it makes them pointless as people want to experience SL.  Turning off the feature we sometimes need to help us is only going to push people away

I feel you are misinterpreting what I am saying. This isn't about who is in charge. This is about created an experience with your land, a way you want people to see it and enjoy. That's all.

These events you keep going on about are an isolated matter for you and honestly these points should be repeatedly told to event organizers until they get the picture. We need fly, need double click tp, we need a detail map of vendor locations, etc etc.

To cripple the power of every other land owner and community that makes use of no-fly to better the experience of everyone just so you can buy your things quicker is selfish to me and while I understand your frustrations in these events it does not justify having broken features that should be working as intended.

The laggy issues you mention is an issue felt across all of SL (unable to move, gray textures, slow scripts, etc). Any sim that has 30+  avatars is enough to cripple it and it is really bad right now with the TP in/out lag. It certainly drives people away, as much as you would suspect in these communities. Yet still to me this doesn't justify the need to leave things broken.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

9 minutes ago, CoffeeDujour said:

If you knew how Firestorms area search worked, you wouldn't ever use it on a busy region. It is exceptionally heavy  .. like  " oh damn, it does WHAT?!!! " heavy,  don't get to complain about lag and script time or avatars if you're going to pop up and have your viewer kneecap the region by demanding every single bit of data on every single object in the most intensive way possible.

Could you elaborate on this more? I thought these features weren't a demand on sims. You telling me firestorm doesn't do it all client side?

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

2 hours ago, Gabriele Graves said:

Blah, blah, my land, blah, my rules, blah.

It is my viewer, my time and my freedom to choose to override when that option has been selected for brain-dead reasons.
If you have good reasons for turning it off then it won't be an issue because I most likely wouldn't be on your land.

However, if you run an event or something similar with 40+ avatars sat at the landing point because hardly anyone can move and you ban me for flying out of the person soup then no problem, you get your wish and I will not return.  What have you really gained?  Nothing except your "My land, my rules" chest-beating prowess is intact.  However, what you might lose is customers, not just for you but your vendors as well. If you are not there however and you don't have an automated way of banning me, then yes I am not going to waste my time following your brain-dead rules and assume you and your vendors still want my custom.  If not, ban me automatically and you get your wish.  Not a problem for me.

 

The time you waste trying to fly in a sim with 40+ avatar is time you could've better spent camming around instead. It is quicker and more effective than flying around.

Secondly, if the event organizers does this then take it up with them. Make your case with them to enable flying. However for other sims, clubs, RP sims, combat sims, adventure sims, etc etc etc. If they turn on flying restrictions these things should be respected.

Honestly I'm surprise you don't use some sort of speed dash or if they allow double click to TP to get around faster.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

1 hour ago, Selene Gregoire said:

Might be more of a privacy sort of thing. I know if I was doing the two backed pixel hump I wouldn't want to be knowing someone could cam in for close up. Which is probably why I don't do the two backed pixel hump. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

As for the official viewer, how to get someone who has never liked it to liked it? Good question. Don't ask me, I've always had a strong dislike for it.

But I am ask why! Why do you dislike it and have you tried it recently?

 

1 hour ago, Blush Bravin said:

This really isn't about camming but about region and parcel owners who disallow flying and the suggestion by some in this thread that the fly override in Firestorm is a problem and shouldn't be allowed. My point is that stopping people from flying doesn't prevent them from seeing because we all know how easy it is to cam.

It is my parcel and my land. If I turn off build, fly and scripts you shouldn't be able to override my wishes just cause you are too lazy to walk from point A and B. I'm sorry but land owners paid for it, they should be respected. Don't care if you could cam up 1000m and find obscurely hidden skyboxes you weren't meant to track down anyway. They remove fly for a reason like they remove builds or scripts for a reason.

 

 

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

6 minutes ago, LittleMe Jewell said:

Outside of a RP region, what reasons would make sense for not allowing flying?

That alone is a big enough reason but others could be:

-Control the flow of traffic as if you want them to see certain things first like vendors or signs.

-Prevent people from reaching skyboxes or sky platforms.

-Discourage people from escaping skyboxes

-Make combat more engaging for sims that focus on combat.

 

I'm sure there are other reasons I missed.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

3 hours ago, steeljane42 said:

 

I'm not saying that someone might find FS (or other more advanced veiwers) much easier to use, but if there's roughly the same learning curve (and I do believe it's the same, for all basic stuff at least), than it may as well have some extra features for later.

 

 

This spoke out a lot to me.  "If the learning curve is the same then it might as well do it on a viewer with more features."

I do enjoy FS but there is just sooo many features. It got so bad they had to add a search bar for their features because at a glance you couldn't find what you wanted. That is just a bad case of feature creep. Some of it can stay but others bits of it should just go.

I know some like the rather in depth technical features but that's just a turn off for new users. That should be locked behind things like how the Advance Menu or Developer Menu are hidden in a sense. Until you hit those key binding they don't pop up. So maybe some of these advance features could be hidden behind check boxes or key combos to activate.

 

It definitely does come down to the learning curve. You really nailed it with that. Unless they some how re-invent things like the inventory window I don't see how they'll be able to retain people better. Hrm.

[Realtalk: How to get the community to like LL's viewer again?]

I'm surprised at the sheer vitriol hate people have for SL's default viewer. Sure it doesn't have the bells and whistles of firestorm but it still runs good. Anyway LL can salvage this and turn it around?

[A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.]

11 minutes ago, Blush Bravin said:

Here is an idea why don't LL create a poll and ask premium members if they want / need more groups to the detriment of basic accounts?

If you asked me I'd say that Linden Lab didn't go far enough. Not only should basic accounts have the number of groups reduced but so should the premiums. It was a mistake to give us so many groups in the first place. They were not designed to be used as they are being used today. It's broken!!! Too broken to be fixed! Groups need to be used as they were intended when we only given 10. 

We need a new system for advertising and running huge RP communities. It just boggles my mind that any RP group/land group would need 10+ groups to run their business.

Nothing is too broken that some code wizard monkey can't fix it. All depends which monkey and how long you leave him/her pounding at the problem.

[A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.]

4 hours ago, Grumpity Linden said:

 

We have approximately 90,000 basic members with 36 or more groups.  We have approximately 10,000 premium subscribers with 55 or more groups.  This is not a 1:1 change.  Does that help with the confusion?  

 

Just 90,000? That doesn't sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things. How will this help improve SL overall? I find it hard to believe that just 90,000 people with extra groups is impacting SL's performance that much. It is not like all 90k are online all the time or chatting in all those extra groups at once. Only thing I can figure is the profile images you are forced to download every time of these groups pop open.

Surely this might be more of a design flaw with the server software or viewers that needs tweaking to improve the quality of SL overall. I really would love to see how much of an impact having all those groups really are cause if it is that bad. I'll glad trim off the excess groups if it means those around me have a better experience.

Fyi, I am one of those basic members who is impacted by this. I tried premium in the past but there was nothing there really enticing me. I rather spend my money buying lindens and supporting content creators by buying their stuff. Now while the ability to speak with Live Support was nice, they never did help me with a serious griefer/stalker problem I and my friends had despite the constant messaging to Support and AR reports. A griefer problem that persist over a year. I'm not exaggerating.

So no with the poor customer support, the gradually rising cost of fees, performance bugs like that dreaded tp-in/out bug and now this I really don't see a reason to get premium. Granted you guys have done a fantastic job fixing bugs and improving things over the past few years so I very much appreciate it. I'm not trying to be negative and attack you or LL. I'm just stating my experience with it.

Right now I just see no value with premium membership, even with the new linden homes. I made a list of suggestions in page 3 of this thread which got some support. Surely there must be ways to tackle this problem without removing people's groups. Surely there must be new incentives, new things you and your company can do to try to generate more money.

We love SL and we know SL isn't going to magically become the next Fortnite or FF15 but it is our place, it is our home and we love it here. We expect you guys to take care of, take care of us, and improve this wonderful world we created. A world that breaks all norms and has become something truly special. So please from the content creators who run businesses within them, to the communities within SL who need them, to the people who like to sit at home and just chat in groups all day long; please reconsider this decision.

[A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.]

16 minutes ago, kiramanell said:

 

Except, of course, 'giving' is perhaps where your whole argument falls apart. They're not a charity. Much as I'd love to have everything for the cheapest price possible, with the most perks and latest innovations, in a real-world economy, someone's gonna have to pay for all of that: aka, us.  

Well... how much profit is enough profit? I get they are a business but they are doing a terribly poor job of running said business.

-Useless old search results

-Utterly terrible new player experience

-TP lag from avatars entering leaving sims to the point it is detrimental to have a popular sim.

-Sims that can't handle 40+ people

 

Good knows what else I missed. However this idea that not giving to the community is not profitable is far from the truth. Just look at other F2P games or the mobile industry. Look at fortnite in where they regularly give away outfits to new players just for playing their game. LL can do that (well after the update the avatar model *coughs*). LL can SOOOO do that to try and keep players coming in for more and more.

[A brief note on pricing changes, which ran long.]

I thought the move to amazon servers was going to help reduce operating costs. This hit on basic accounts is going to hurt communities and in general make people more cynical and spiteful. You give with one hand and you take with another. Honestly, this is not how you make premium account more attractive.

What I see happening now in response to this folks being online a lot more. First people will leave themselves online through their phone or tablet just so they don't miss any messages or notices. This will put a drain on linden systems as there will be online zombies lingering about hogging network data and resources. Secondly, people will slowly stop using groups and just use discord which for the short term might look good but these communities will no long be tied to SL, they have discord to keep them connected. So the moment SL pisses off the majority of said community they'll leave all at once to find a new place together. Groups in SL kept people in SL with their communities that only exist in SL. This group limit reduction is shooting yourself in the foot.

I get that LL wants to making premium accounts more attractive but this isn't doing it. Not at all. I have a free account and I choose to stay free because there is literally nothing attractive to me on the premium account that makes it worth the cost. Instead I spend that money on lindens which goes to pay land owners and content creators who in turn pay LL. So to me I don't get it.

But you know to avoid sounding entirely negative. Here's some ideas to make premium more attractive that you could immediately implement:

1) Zero upload costs... limited to say 20? uploads per day/week or whatever before the upload costs return.

2) Actual good customer service that deals with griefers and drama, especially when there is a track record of it.

3) Higher min group requirement. Make it like 20? 50? people minimum otherwise you pay fees.. 10L per week? UNLESS you are premium.

4) Reduced fees for buying lindens while premium. You got them on the premium hook, do you really need to milk every transaction? Lower fees, means more impulse buying.

5) Allow private sim owners to expand sim size. Just literally make it bigger. LI can be the same. This way people could do races, or more indepth RP layout instead of stacking sim builds to skyboxes at various heights.

6) Promotional deals. Pick a content creator to promote, and on their marketplace page do a limited time discount. LL will ensure the creator still gets the full value of their products (ex: 1,000L) while the customers pay a discount amount (like 10%) so customers pay 900L, Linden labs pay the missing 100L, the creator still gets 1000L. All this to encourage impulse buying and improve brands and creators LL support and like.

Long term changes LL can do to make premium more attractive:

1. Allow sims to hold more than 40 avatars! This right here is killing your land business anyway. When Truth, blueberry or other stores do sales, it is jam pack for days and it does turn away some people from dropping in and buying stuff. Fix this.. some how...

2. Inventory preview wear option? Some wardrobe window maybe? So I don't have to wear the outfit just to see what it is cause the creator didn't include a photo. Plus then others won't have to render my outfit nor the sim.

3. Better notice system. Seriously why do notices count as offline messages? This should be client side, entirely. When did you log out? Ok now check for notices that popped in afterward... bam here you go.

4. Add a dating service for premium users? Silly, cheesy, bad taste.. I know.. but you know there's a market for it.

5. Give away outfits. In a game where there are no monsters to grind for gear and no way to generate cash without spending cash (upload costs and all). Most new players have 1 or 2 outfits at most to use and relying on freebies or anything extra which is just terrible. They get shunned, ignored and usually not welcomed without a remotely decent avatar. So for new arrivals let them pick an outfit from the marketplace (from a list you approve of) and make it free (aka you, LL buy it for them). Do this every 5 days for 30 days to keep them logging in regularly. Hey mobile tactics are profitable use'em.

Secondly, by implementing a system where you give new players a free outfit you can now put this as a feature for premium users! Add it to their weekly stipend.

6. Share (some) premium benefits to friends! Maybe your 3 best friends can now also access premium areas. Or get virtual gifts. Priority access to sims (at least from other basic accounts but not premium) Maybe something I mentioned above but reduced. Either way, share the benefits!

 

I'm sure the community here can come up with other ideas of how to make premium more attractive to people. In general, don't assume every listed benefit you create or I listed will be used by everyone, all the time. Some get premium for one reason (like support) and that's it. So if you can share the benefits, friends will get it just to give something to someone they care about.

Don't forget what makes people log back into SL everyday is the communities and people they met. Sure some are in it for the money, to create content, but majority of people are here to make connects with others, make friends and be apart of a community. Promote that, build around that and you'll have more retention which means more money casually spent. You don't have to force. Some of us drops $50 or more on a weekly basis without a second thought for ourselves and for our friends. So please, be considerate of the communities you are impacting by this move.

 

[Broken Links]

So I was in the middle of updating my outfits with a mesh body when I noticed there was no broken links. I tested my hunch with a prim box and when it was deleted the broken link vanished. Now I know this is nice and helpful in clearing out people's clutter and avoid dozens of questions asking about broken links but this also creates another problem.

Auto deleting broken links doesn't solve the problem it just hides one of the symptoms. Something that I'd like to be aware of instead of putting on an outfit and wondering "Why doesn't this look right? What am I missing?"

There's also the fact that if you are missing a few pieces of your avatar (skin, shape, base hair, eyes, etc) that the outfit won't attach, no matter how many times you try. They require these pieces and if I were to update one say the skin or eyes and delete the old one. Then all the broken links in those outfits are gone and I wouldn't even consider it a problem until I try to wear an outfit and be scratching my head as to why it won't attach.

 

With that said, I was hoping someone might know of a way of stopping this from happening, maybe a debug setting or something I can flick on/off.

Failing that, maybe we can have a discussion to have this auto delete undone or at least an option put in for the rest of us who prefer to have broken links so we can fix them ourselves.

[Do Broken links exist anymore?]

I've noticed that broken links haven't appeared in my inventory despite me expecting some after deleting some old items. I had intended to replace those broken links with their updated versions however with the links gone I couldn't tell where I needed to go to update my outfits. I also noticed that if an outfit folder is entirely empty it vanishes as well.

I can understand the practical applications of needing this to avoid people complaining about missing links but a senior user like myself needs them to know what is "broken" so I can go fix it and put the missing items back in that outfit folder.

 

Anyone know if there's a way to turn off this auto delete of links/outfit folders?

[SPAM from mmook.com]

I just started having this same problem last week. Ashame that I have to set it where only friends can message me through the website.

[Stealth Mode]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. It can't be too hard to develop this feature. Though I am wondering how can you hurt people with this?

Maybe someone could start a jira up? I would myself but I don't have a clue on how to get that started up.

[Stealth Mode]

Would it be hard to impliment a stealth feature? Where you can login without anyone knowing your online? It would be nice to login in once in a while and not be bothered when I'm trying to work on something. I'm not trying to avoid anyone but it's hard to focus when nearly everyone who IMs you expects you to reply and hold a conversation with them.

The time I spent typing back, could've been used for building, inventory sorting, decorating or whatever the task of the week is for me. It's odd how in this day and age everyone expects you to reply to their tweets and facebook posts or text messages they send you.

At home when the phone rings I can decide if I want to pick it up or not. However if I'm texted or someone posts to my facebook/twitter account they want me to reply right away. The same thing with SL. Every IM feels like a needy child seeking attention when I want to focus.

So I'm wondering is having a stealth mode a good idea? Or am I gonna have to train my friends with busy messages? I'd hate to have them feel like I'm turning them away all the time especially if something takes a couple days or more to finish.

 

Thoughts?

[Universal inventory for multiple accts.]

Exactly!

In the begining they did not think that SL would become what it is today. Hence why they had such a simple permissions system. We have content creators selling full perm items to other content creators because there is no other way around it. You can't "license" your item off to someone with the current permission systems. Texture artists and mesh resellers (you know the ones that builds for others to buy and resell) would love if the permission systems was a tad more complex and protected their investments better. Yet they must sell at full perm but have to go with an honor system pratically in hopes that no who buys will not give away their textures. That alone proves that the first lindens did not think everything through.

So the same problem they have is the same problem I have. The permission system is too simple. People make no-transfer/copy items because there is no other option to protect their assets without making it free for all to take. Yet if there was an option where the liscense of said item could be given away and the original owner would lose their no-transfer/copy version as the liscense was moved to another. I'm sure many if not most wouldn't care if people did shuffle clothing or goods from one alt to the next.

 

Now I'm not suggesting this because I have a need to run away from my current account. On the contrary I love this account, the name I have, the friends and history I have with it. I do know however that I will probably still be in SL in the next 5 years which will turn my account to 12 years old and make my situation with newer players that much more awkward when they see that avatar age. What if SL sticks around for another 10 years and I'm still here playing it. My account would be 17 years old. Boy does that age me in ways that no new skin can fix. lol

Yet it would be nice to be able to create additional accounts tied to this inventory. A business avatar that's purely business. So all friends and groups are business related. A RP account where all groups/friends are tied to that one RP sim. A family account where all friends and groups are tied to RL family that are in SL.

Instead of having to make a dozen+ of alts for all these different situations and purposes that I and others would use SL for.

[Universal inventory for multiple accts.]

---

Griffin Ceawlin wrote:

Wrong.

Your license from MS allows you to use that copy of Windows 8 on your new PC, certainly,

if

you delete the copy on your old one. You cannot lawfully use that copy of Windows 8 on more than one PC.

Your license to use SL content does

not

allow you to use that content on any and all avatars that you control. If LL decided to allow you to do so, it would seem to violate the permissions system that is in place and has been in place since the beginning, no?

---

 

Would it violate the permission system? Since I am still the same person using the same item? Even if it was an alt I created through my main account? Even if there was a restriction that only 1 avatar can be logged in at a time? What is wrong with me wanting to use content I paid for on another avatar I own?

 

Is there some fear of abuse because any potiental for abuse can be remedied. If it's not fear of abuse then what is wrong with support this idea? Someone will lose out on money? That money I spent rebuying everything from the same creators (If they are even still around) could've gone to support another creator with new things that I enjoy.

 

I don't see why anyone would shoot down such an idea.

[Universal inventory for multiple accts.]

---

Orca Flotta wrote:

1) tl; dr

2) you surely won't need all the 63k items all the time so pack your unused stuffz in boxes. That will keep the numbers down

3) what was cool and expensive 7 years ago is old and outdated now. You don't wanna be seen with old clunky prim or painted on shoes or the fancy system hair and clothes in public

4) you can send transferable items to an alt but that's it. Universal inventory won't work because of the permissions system

 

---

Doesn't matter if what I have is old and outdated. This is like saying whatever you store in your garage is old and outdated and should be immediately trashed. They are still my things regardless how dated the hair/shoes might be. It's my choice if I keep them around and my choice if I throw them away.

 

---

Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

All the things you bought were sold as one copy to one avatar.  It would be a violation of the creators IP rights to give access to the same item to mulitple avatars..

---

 How would it be a violation of the creators IP? It's still being tied to one avatar.  It's like in the real world. I go out I by an Xbox. I lend it to someone else to use or I give it away to someone else. This same thing can be done with software. I have windows 8 on one PC but decide to trash that to get a new PC. The new one has windows 7 so I upgrade it to windows 8 with my copy. Same thing as moving from one avatar to another.

 

If the one copy bought from a creator is still being used by one person each time, where is the problem? Where are my rights as the one who bought the item? Am I just royally screwed? Does LL not care about shoppers like me? Who has gone and spent 10k on a whim because I loved this one creator's outfits or items? Where are my rights? I would utterly hate to lose the inventory I have which mind you, doesn't lag me at all when tp around if anyone was curious.

 

Do I really have to spend another 20k, 50k, 100k even to just have a good start on a new alt? That is utterly insane and severely discouraging that LL hasn't in some way catered to the other half of the circle. To have a thriving economy you need sellers and buyers. Our content creators are the sellers and I'm a buyer and I don't like being screwed like anyone else.

 

Code wise I know this can't be all that difficult to excute. Our inventories are stored in some database I'm sure. Allowing another to access it or creating a way to merge two shouldn't be that tough to figure out. I just laid out multiple options since I believe no one has really explored this topic enough to see if there is a possible solution.