[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

1 hour ago, Luna Bliss said:

I have angered others by saying I felt sympathy for ...

I'll preface this by saying I prefer to talk in general terms than cite specific individuals as examples since public opinion can vary, new facts can come to light and public figures can fall in and out of favour as a result, especially when dealing with those involved in politics, so sometimes such examples don't age well.

That being said, and without mentioning any specific names, while it would be nice to claim that everyone is deserving of understanding and forgiveness there are some who seem hell bent on proving themselves the exception to that rule.  

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

37 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

Doesn't your ear sweat after that long? Mine does. 🤣

No, but wearing certain headsets for more than an hour or two tends to make my head feel like it's been trapped in a vice sometimes. 😅

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

4 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

The rep has to keep the calls within a certain amount of time so they are under a lot of pressure to get off the phone and move on to the next call.

Oh lord, I wouldn't last a day then.  As some people have probably noticed from how long my posts are I have a tendency to ramble.  Combine that with my rabid curiosity about almost everything and fascination with people in general and the length of an average phone call for me is at least an hour. 😅

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

9 minutes ago, Rolig Loon said:

I'm sure that you could sense me biting my tongue and trying not to make a political statement. Yes, I agree with you that the perception of hurt was largely one-sided. As you point out, it's not hard to find people who play the role of victim, overreacting to things that the rest of us might shrug off.  Nevertheless, my own personal reaction to roasts and the sort of humor that is designed to needle someone else is to feel uncomfortable, knowing that at some level the humor is a personal criticism.  It reminds me too much of watching my own kids quietly taunt each other, each hoping to provoke a backlash that would get the other one in trouble.  Indeed, we all have faults. We should recognize, though, that pointing them out publicly is risky business.  Not everyone enjoys being the butt of a joke.

I can't help but feel some sympathy for celebrities (and others who live their lives under public scrutiny) that develop NPD, if you live your life surrounded by cameras and being watched by millions I imagine it's hard not to end up feeling like "it's all about you!".

I also think that sometimes people forget that they're on a public forums and will treat threads as a conversation between friends, which is nice in a way since it makes the forums feel inviting and hospitable, however those conversations can sometimes be open to misinterpretation.

For example, Poster A and Poster B are engaged in friendly banter and are "roasting" each other, everything is funny and all involved can see the humour until one day Poster C happens to read the thread and sees the comments making light hearted-fun of a persons shortcomings but instead of seeing it in the context of humour they view it from the perspective of someone who has endured years of ridicule from others about what they perceive not as a shortcoming but a disability.

Now I'm not saying that humour has no place on a forum, and would hate to see that friendly banter disappear, but at the same time given the public nature of the forum and how poorly humour can sometimes be conveyed via text, the potential for misunderstanding is pretty high so derogatory remarks, even those made in jest, can be a recipe for disaster.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Ah, that makes sense.

I've worked several call centers for some big names. Providing inworld support isn't any different than providing support via text (no, not your phone) like a lot of customer/tech support services offer. Sometimes those popups in the bottom right hand corner of my screen can be annoying. 😉

Yeah sorry I should have made it more clear I was speaking generally.

My own experience with customer support is more along the lines of providing continuing support for specific clients after the completion of a project, so I don't have to deal with the sheer volume of people that a call center has to process.  Obviously when you have so many customers to deal with then weeding out the ones that are just being problematic becomes a matter of time-management and cost-effectiveness so the rules are probably quite different.

 

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

1 minute ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

One thing I that I think can happen, especially in technical discussions but not exclusively, is taking comments about things you own/are associated with personally. It can go both ways - saying there's an issue with a customer's hardware or a representative's product isn't a reflection on the customer or the representative. There can be a strong impulse to try to assign fault or blame and to make moral judgements in a situation that is just an unpredictable combination of neutral causes.

As commonly seen in the indignant "But my rig can play all the latest AAA games at 463672 fps, if SL is performing badly it's not my hardware!" posts.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

1 minute ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

No, you do not have to continue attempting to assist them. If you have never worked in a call center, you shouldn't argue about how they work with someone who has worked at them.

 

While I haven't worked in a call center I've had plenty of experience of providing "after sales support" to clients and customers, and was talking in general about being required to provide support to people in a professional manner.

I don't know how many others on this forum have worked in call centers but I'm sure there are some who have been providing excellent customer support in SL for years without ever setting foot inside a call center, and personally I think their opinions on the subject of customer support are just as valid as anyones regardless of their RL career choices.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Sorry, I disagree. Even at a call center you have a choice. You are allowed to hang up if they get abusive. You are allowed to escalate calls.

There is no wrestling it into submission. All you're doing is making the pig happy in its own wallow, reducing your AHT, and getting dinged heavily on evaluations.

Oh there's a difference between stupid and abusive, and of course nobody is (or should be) forced to tolerate abusive behaviour, but when faced with a customer that "just doesn't get it" despite multiple attempts to explain you're still expected to continue attempting to assist them if they request it, whereas in our private lives we can simply walk away or ignore them if we've had enough.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

Yes, unfortunately customer support is one area where sometimes instead of recognizing stupid and rising above it you're forced to get down in the mud with it and wrestle it into submission.

ETA: Not that I would ever consider any of my own customers/clients (past, present or future) stupid of course, they are all exceptionally intelligent and upstanding individuals who I have the utmost admiration and respect for!

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

1 minute ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Interesting how the same approach works with all manner of situations.

Yes, it can be applied pretty much universally.  The tricky part is knowing when to give up on trying to elaborate and explain how the facts support your position and accept that the other person simply isn't interested in facts and just wants to argue or complain.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

55 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

it's clear that most if not all of the problems are caused by their not understanding viewer settings. The user is not asking how to fix the problems, they're simply complaining about the "broken" viewer. Some of the settings have been explained to them in the past. Often when people try to explain things to this user, they pooh-pooh the advice without showing any signs of actually trying it, or say that they're seeing problems that nobody else using equivalent settings are seeing.

How do you address a situation like this without making it personal and about the poster?

You let the facts speak for themselves.  If said poster refuses to be swayed by those facts that's their problem.  As for anyone else that happens upon the thread if, as you said, "it's clear that most if not all of the problems are caused by their not understanding" and they're just complaining rather than seeking help then that fact will be equally as evident to others as it is to you, and they can decide for themselves whether the posters complaints are valid or the product of their own lack of understanding.

Simply put, you can't win an argument with someone that doesn't value fact over opinion, so state the facts and then leave them to their folly.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

Just now, Silent Mistwalker said:

Except for the struck-out part, you nailed it.

There isn't going to be a clear answer to satisfy everyone. I'd like to see some of the answers, clear as mud or unsatisfactory as they may be, because I've yet to see any really. 

Yeah, you're not wrong.

Perhaps I should have clarified that by "everyone" I meant everyone that asks the question in good faith and is genuinely interested in finding a realistic answer, as there are some who have adopted the talking point and regurgitate it as a "gotcha!" when arguing against what they consider "special treatment" for minorities and others who will contemplate no compromise when it comes to defending what they see as their right to individuality or to belong to whatever minority/community they identify with.

It would be nice to find a clear answer in order to be able to finally debunk the notion that the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

6 minutes ago, Rowan Amore said:

I'm an NFT!

Well, you're definitely unique and irreplaceable.  

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

2 minutes ago, Silent Mistwalker said:

as long as there is fear of the other because they are different, it can't change.

This seems to be a major stumbling block in a lot of conversations and a point that's come up in many arguments in various circles.  The question of how we promote a sense of equality and unity for everyone while at the same time maintaining our own sense of individuality and cultural identity is complex and I've yet to see a clear answer that satisfies everyone.

[Objects and environment interactions with avatar]

On 4/23/2022 at 4:46 AM, Jabadahut50 said:

I know this is a bit of a necro and from someone who doesn't really have a history here on the forums but you can solve the puppeteering impracticality problem with animation constraints.

Coincidentally, your choice to resurrect this thread does coincide quite nicely with the recent announcement of VRChats new Avatar Dynamics System (not directly related to SL I know, but still an interesting look at the types of features dealing with avatar interaction that are being explored on similar platforms).

VRChat’s Avatar Dynamics System Aims To Upgrade Interactions

ETA: Official Blog Announcement (and Youtube preview video for those that prefer to watch rather than read).

Avatar Dynamics is Now Live

 

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

20 minutes ago, Coffee Pancake said:

Yeah .. being the kid that ended up terrified to go to school and leave school because there would be a gang waiting. staff knew. parents knew. 

"Toughen up and hit them back"

Turns out what doesn't kill you doesn't make you stronger, it leaves you scared for life.

Children can be remarkably cruel, then they grow up and learn subtlety.  

[Hiring a Mesher [CLOTHING ONLY]]

12 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

@BinBash

@fluffy sharkfin

This is a debate that I've been running for a while, and I'm quite tired of it to be honest. The problem with redefining something that has been solidly established for years is not only a source of unnecessarily generated confusion, it's mostly within the premise that SL is somewhat and somehow something special in regard of assets and workflows to allow the creation of a new word. Under this view, someone who creates things using prims should be a primmer, someone who does the same with the sculpt maps should be a sculptprimmer or a primsculpter (?), who works on textures should then be a texturer and so on. Already the term "rigger"  is an overstatement in SL, since the process of rigging in reality doesn't end at weight painting and includes so many more things, but still somewhat acceptable because the original term includes the skin weighting operation.

So forgive me if I don't agree with your view. I'll not be here boasting how many years of experience I got on games and films to say what I say, but just reading anything that isn't related to SL in all the fields regarding 3d productions of every type should clarify what I mean in the previous paragraph of this post.

 

That's fair enough and we can each decide on the terminology we choose to use for various things.  I think it's just personal preference how rigid we all are when it comes to using certain terms (for example the profession of "brick layer" say's nothing of all the additional work involved in the process of building a brick wall and yet seems to be the official universally accepted term).

As I already said my original post was mostly just meant in jest, with the emphasis being that creating content for SL can sometimes feel over-complicated and backward in comparison to the workflow used for other platforms.  For example, if you look at a lot of the current development platforms they're all moving toward better integration and compatibility between the software used to develop content and the environment the content is intended for,  meanwhile SL is using the collada format.

Asserting that creating content for Second Life within it's limited capabilities is at times frustrating and over-complicated doesn't equate to saying that it somehow requires additional skills that aren't necessary in other areas of the 3D industry, just that trying to incorporate a workflow that includes as much of the capabilities of modern software as SL can support is at times cumbersome and less intuitive than creating for other platforms.

Anyway, I think we've dragged this thread off-topic for long enough debating the importance of semantics, although at least in doing so we helped keep it from sliding off the first page for a while I suppose.  Hopefully the OP will find a modeler, mesher, polygonist, vertexician, triangle-wrangler or quad-slinger who can help them with their request, I doubt they'll care what they call themselves as long as they can get the job done!  

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Kind of like "feeling" bullied vs. "being" bullied!

Pretty much, and to be fair it's not hard to also subtly imply that somebody is a bad person for their actions or the opinions they hold when expressing an opposing opinion and there are times when people can be a little antagonistic in their responses so the line can sometimes get a little blurry.

While voicing negative opinions of others is not allowed on the forums, they've never really bothered me anyway since for an opinion to have merit it must be based on fact and not assumption, so the only opinions about me that really matter to me are those of the people that know me.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

54 minutes ago, JuliaFina said:

If someone has the opinion I'm doing bad things and am a bad person for example, they are not allowed to post opinions like that on the forums here.

I think part of the issue with peoples perception of what constitutes bullying lies in the distinction between the two opinions you mention here (italics and bolding added for emphasis).

People often equate being told that something they've done (or are doing) is wrong with the implication that they're a bad person for doing it.

I agree that nobody should be posting their negative opinions about others on these forums, but there's a pretty big difference between believing that someones actions or opinion is wrong and implying that they're a bad person, and those that can't make that distinction will often see bullying where in reality there are just differing opinions.

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

People often form lasting opinions of others based on their initial encounters with them (which is why everyone makes such a big deal about the concept of "first impressions" and how important they are) and it's an invaluable tool when dealing with large numbers of people as a lot of people do in modern life.

The problem is the internet has effectively increased the number of people we deal with exponentially, to the point where it's almost impossible to afford anyone more than a brief precursory glance before engaging with them.

Perhaps as online communication becomes more and more ingrained into our culture people will come to realise that while in real life there are very real dangers that we're instinctively trying to predict by evaluating things on face value, when dealing with people on the internet there's very little need to form a first impression, and certainly no reason to voice it.

[Where do you go to get the mesh body to upload to blender/marvelous from?]

43 minutes ago, KR3ATIV3 said:

Im just now getting started with making mesh clothes for most of the mesh bodies on second life .i've been trying to figure out if i need to contact the actual creator to get it? Or is it already in store ? i've already been to the maitreya store and i didn't see anything about a kit for the mesh body yet, just alot of layer kits. If someone can help me  i'd like that alot ,more than you know. 

As Tazzie pointed out above, most mesh body dev kits can only be acquired by filling out an application and usually require that you have a pre-established store and that you show examples of your work.  There are a few dev kits that are easier to obtain, probably the most well known of which is the kemono which is freely available to download from the creators website (along with some other resources).

There are also quite a few threads on this subject that have links to useful resources,  try searching the forums for the term "dev kit" and you'll find plenty of helpful information on the topic.

[Hiring a Mesher [CLOTHING ONLY]]

6 minutes ago, BinBash said:

If you intended TIC then I'm sure I completely misunderstood your recent diatribe and, with that, there's nothing cohesive to respond to.  But I do worry that you believe you can compare your experience to mine and assert that we agree on something based on this.  But I will diverge from this off topic position that you hold and simply know that you are uncomfortable with views that disagree with yours so it won't be of any value to you to communicate in this regard, even though you appear to believe that "we" must continue to learn.

I'm sorry, "diatribe"?

Quote

Diatribe: a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something.

What thread are you reading? 😅

As for believing we can compare our experience in the area of 3D modelling, well if you really feel so assured that you are at the pinnacle of knowledge in the field and could never hope to meet someone of similar experience then who am I to argue... congratulations, well done on your considerable accomplishment!

I'm always open to hearing opposing views to my own, and often welcome it because a fresh perspective is a good way to learn and learning keeps the brain active and the imagination fertile.  However if the view you're espousing is "people have to use the words I want them to use, and anyone that doesn't is wrong and should be mocked!" then I'm afraid I must, respectfully, disagree.

[Hiring a Mesher [CLOTHING ONLY]]

33 minutes ago, BinBash said:

This supports the assertion from @OptimoMaximo perfectly, though you intended to disagree I suppose.  I've been in the industry for more than 30 years and I can tell you that what goes into SL is rather simplistic compared to real world work associated with 3d modeling and related tasks.  I think it's mistake, and have had personal experience with this mistake,to redefine words and terms when there is no logical replacement for them, such as "rigging", which works most of the time but when it fails it fails badly.  This was the motivation for my video series on "rigging" an apple.

Yes, the first 8 words of my post confirmed that modellers make 3D models, I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I was disputing that as the rest of my post was mostly intended as tongue in cheek and aimed at pointing out the annoying hoops that we have to jump through in order to make content within the constraints of SLs current capabilities.

As someone who, like myself, has more than 3 decades of experience in 3D modelling I'm sure you're aware that in order to stay relevant you must continually be learning and improving and adapting to new technologies and workflows, and so are familiar with the disparities between the type of workflow currently used in most modern development scenarios when dealing with up to date platforms and that of creating content for SL, a platform which has it's own quite unique requirements.

As for redefining words, while the word mesher does have some existing definitions they're all quite obscure and none of them have any relevance to 3D modelling, so introducing it as a new term to specifically describe 3D modellers who create content for Second Life isn't going to cause any confusion (not to mention it's logical... "modelers make 3D models, meshers make SL mesh"), unless of course you have some objection to the idea of any clarifications beyond "modeller" in which case you may also want to take that up with all the people advertising their services as "digital sculptors".

Regardless of what terms we choose to adopt to refer to things, we both know from years of experience that those who are not as well-versed in the terminology of 3D modelling will sometimes use the wrong words.

[Have you been to a Second Life Wedding?]

22 hours ago, Madelaine McMasters said:

Fluffy, if I ever give birth to another 23 octopi, you’re more than welcome to TP over and stomp on me. Killing them right then and there has got to be better than trying to keep them from eating each other.

Stomp on baby ocotpi?  But they're so cute... I could never!

[Recognizing and refraining from Interpersonal Disputes]

I don't think anyone has any misconceptions about the definition of interpersonal disputes, the problem is that avoiding conflict is one thing that humans are notoriously bad at, which has resulted in some of the most horrific and tragic events in history.

Honestly in comparison to some places these forums are remarkably tame and tolerant.  Could we do better?  Sure, but then there's always room for improvement and despite a few incidents now and then I think people try not to let themselves go too far, it's just we all have varying ideas on exactly where that line lies.