ID and TAX ID Information Required by Linden Labs - Pending Processes Credits On Hold.

[Theresa Tennyson]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

"

I think we are just having a little bit of a language problem here on this point, not understanding each other. I hope this clears it up.

"

--------------------------------------------------------------

Semantics: the biggest problem for communication.

I am also able to "Increase Credit". This is how I bring $US into my SL account. It's standard procedure. I have been doing it for eight years without a problem.

Perhaps there is a generational issue here. Today, SL is all about free free free - about 'playing' SL without spending any money. This is due to LL's promotion of a free-to-play culture, the company's attempts over the years to convert SL into 3D Facebook, avatar Minecraft and cellphone Candy Crush, and the exodus of money by people of my generation who became disillusioned by the direction of SL and the compound errors of LL management. The cynicism toward SL/LL and the disparaging of virtual everything as expressed so often in the fora is a symptom of these changes.

I must admit that if I had discovered SL today (as it is today) instead of 2006 (as it was in 2006), I would not invest a single cent. SL today is a sad and restrictive world, a kind of mini-California + Disneyland theme park.

No one in 2006 imagined such a terrible future for SL.

---

Perhaps you should have rephrased the bolded statement to say, "No one in Second Life imagined such a terrible future for SL", because in fact almost everyone else in the world realized that building an imaginary world out of digital LEGO wasn't an investment grade opportunity.

Two words: Beanie Babies.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

"

I think we are just having a little bit of a language problem here on this point, not understanding each other. I hope this clears it up.

"

--------------------------------------------------------------

Semantics: the biggest problem for communication.

I am also able to "Increase Credit". This is how I bring $US into my SL account. It's standard procedure. I have been doing it for eight years without a problem.

Perhaps there is a generational issue here. Today, SL is all about free free free - about 'playing' SL without spending any money. This is due to LL's promotion of a free-to-play culture, the company's attempts over the years to convert SL into 3D Facebook, avatar Minecraft and cellphone Candy Crush, and the exodus of money by people of my generation who became disillusioned by the direction of SL and the compound errors of LL management. The cynicism toward SL/LL and the disparaging of virtual everything as expressed so often in the fora is a symptom of these changes.

I must admit that if I had discovered SL today (as it is today) instead of 2006 (as it was in 2006), I would not invest a single cent. SL today is a sad and restrictive world, a kind of mini-California + Disneyland theme park.

No one in 2006 imagined such a terrible future for SL.

---

Perhaps you should have rephrased the bolded statement to say, "No one

in Second Life

imagined such a terrible future for SL", because in fact

almost everyone else in the world

realized that building an imaginary world out of digital LEGO wasn't an investment grade opportunity.

Two words: Beanie Babies.

---

It was around that time that people began to realize that it was an extremely risky investment if you were doing it simply for financial gain. 

What people want does change all the time.  When I started I constantly met Neko's.  Now I meet very few.  For a while "Saddle Hips" were popping up all over the place but now I am not seeing as many girls with them.  The next 'fad' could be 'Twiggy' shaped Ava's instead of giant Lola's. 

Sometimes it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time.  Today if Bob Dylan showed up to audition for American Idol they'd probably turn off his microphones the moment he started to sing.

@Deltango.  Increasing Credit still only changes the amount of Real Dollars you are able to spend on Linden Dollars.  You see this as 'depositing cash' into your SL account and yes in a way it is.  But it's not exactly the same as when we could add cash to our account with out buying $L.  People used to do that as a way to make sure their Tier was covered when it became due.

People don't buy $L with the express purpose of "banking" them.  They buy $L with the intent to spend them.  But nothing necesitates doing this.  You can buy as you go, only purchasing the amount you need when you need them.

The only reasons I buy ahead of time is convenience and so I can get the best rates on the Lindex.  Normally I buy what for me is about a month's worth of $L and I don't buy more until they have about run out.  But I am not doing it to "bank" my money.

[Deltango Vale]

"@Deltango. Increasing Credit still only changes the amount of Real Dollars you are able to spend on Linden Dollars. You see this as 'depositing cash' into your SL account and yes in a way it is. But it's not exactly the same as when we could add cash to our account with out buying $L. People used to do that as a way to make sure their Tier was covered when it became due."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I can still deposit $US into my SL account to cover tier. It's standard procedure. Nothing has changed in eight years. Perhaps this function was removed for Basic Accounts, but I have never heard of such a change. To prevent people from bringing $US into their accounts to cover tier would be stupid even by LL standards.

My generation moved money into and out of SL depending on many factors. Buying a choice piece of land often required having $L ready and waiting to make the purchase. One could not trust an indirect CC purchase because things were always going wrong with the SL background systems. Therefore, one brought in $US and converted it to $L in advance of a potential land purchase. Only then could one be guaranteed that when he clicked 'buy land' it would work.

Often one did not use the $L he had available. Sometimes the land was no longer for sale (things moved very fast in those days) or the landowner/seller would change the parcel size/shape overnight (making it less appealing) or someone would buy an adjacent parcel and build a monstrosity (forcing one to resell the land he had just purchased) or one simply changed his mind. Sometimes one would reconvert his unused $L back to $US to cover tier. Sometimes the $US was pulled out of SL depending on RL needs (unexpected expenses or to buy something special). Sure, one wished to reduce transaction fees, but transaction fees were not that important compared to the joy of participating in the SL economy.

Remember too, land in 2006-2007 was expensive. Today, land is so cheap that 15% of it is abandoned. In 2007, half a mainland sim could cost US$2,000. My generation thought nothing of bringing US$5,000 into SL for prospective purchases. Back in 2006-2007, we had confidence in SL. Linden Lab was a smart, ambitious company with an intelligent strategic plan. Yes, there was hype, but much of the hype was justified by the enormous potential of SL. I remember how proud I was to be among the first million residents.

As is well known, LL went through an internal coup in 2008. The founding principles were abandoned, the strategic plan was abandoned and there followed a string of major management errors. It's easy to see in hindsight, but you know the story of boiling a frog. The smart money, unencumbered by emotion, began to flow out of SL. The rest of us could not believe that LL would turn 180 degrees from its original vision.

Digression: I'm amused that LL wants to build SL2. The company still thinks of virtual worlds as an engineering project. Even CCP Games has realized that EVE Online is not an engineering project - in spite of its military-grade technological infrastructure. Virtual worlds are a human project. Until LL figures this out, SL2 will fare no better than SL. In fact, it's likely to bankrupt the company. It was the announcement of SL2 that prompted me to begin removing money from SL.

[Perrie Juran]

 

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Deltango Vale wrote:

"@Deltango. Increasing Credit still only changes the amount of Real Dollars you are able to spend on Linden Dollars. You see this as 'depositing cash' into your SL account and yes in a way it is. But it's not exactly the same as when we could add cash to our account with out buying $L. People used to do that as a way to make sure their Tier was covered when it became due."

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I can still deposit $US into my SL account to cover tier. It's standard procedure. Nothing has changed in eight years. Perhaps this function was removed for Basic Accounts, but I have never heard of such a change. To prevent people from bringing $US into their accounts to cover tier would be stupid even by LL standards.

<snip>

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I am at a complete loss here.  I am Premium and I have both PayPal and a Credit Card on my account.  And I can find no way any more to just add cash to my account.  The second screen shot is what I get now.  I "no longer need to add credit (cash) to my account."  And I can find no way around it.

When was the last time you did this.  Can you provide a screen shot of where you have the ability or links to it?

Here (link) is one of the threads about when the abilty to add Cash in order to simply have Cash on hand in your account was removed.  It's from June 2013.

I can purchase $L all day long up to my limits.  But I can't add cash.

As to the rest of your post, I'm in total agreement.  Linden Lab has not been the smartest kid on the street in the ways they have handled SL and dealt with its customers.  But I am only talking here about the required Tax Information.  Anything unfair about it has been caused by the Tax Laws, not Linden Lab.  They have to comply with the Laws.

[Deltango Vale]

Well well well, how interesting. The last time I brought money into SL was October 2013, but from memory, I did it via Lindex (out of convenience). I just tried to do it via 'Increase Credit' and got your screenshot. So LL now forces a double conversion (and two-way fees) to put $US into one's account. For the fist time in my life, I shall use the term 'raw corporate greed' to describe this change. Just when I thought LL was the dumbest company on the planet, you have shown me that it can reach new lows. All the more reason to pull money out.

[Deltango Vale]

"They have to comply with the Laws."

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LL has a history of complying with the law - badly. LL also has a history of making policy and dressing it up as a legal issue (inworld banking, for example, and gambling policy). Rarely has LL been clear and upfront about the legal component of policy decisions. Rarely has LL been clear and upfront about anything.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

"

They have to comply with the Laws.

"

-----------------------------------------------------

LL has a history of complying with the law - badly. LL also has a history of making policy and dressing it up as a legal issue (

inworld banking

, for example, and

gambling policy

). Rarely has LL been clear and upfront about the legal component of policy decisions. Rarely has LL been clear and upfront about anything.

---

We are very aware of the Banking and Gambling policies.  But we are also aware of what happened with Ginko Financial and what led up to the Banking decision.  That very much impacted Users.  What would your attitude have been if you had lost all your money when Ginko folded?

And while LL was clear that they knew of no investigation in 2007 about gambling in SL, I don't think you could find any one in the U.S. with even a semblance of understanding of Gambling laws who would say that Linden Lab did not have to do something.

I'm not a lawyer so I could still be wrong but to the best of my understanding they are legally required to collect the tax documentation they are asking for.

We could add to the list the Child Porn rules.  I could point you to a thread that happened over in SLU where someone posted a questionable Hentai picture.  The German participants went bloody nuts over it because it was probably illegal for them to view.

Linden Lab is a U.S. company and they have to comply with U.S. law.  They will take the necessary steps to protect themselves first.  And to do so they will err on the side of caution.  I would not expect them to do otherwise nor to try and see what they could get away with.  Would you?

I'm not going to say that sometimes it doesn't cause problems for people.  Nor will I say that the way they implemented some of these things could not have been done better.

But I won't argue that when it comes to these legal issues that they were wrong to implement the rules.

Lastly, you keep wanting to go back to 2006/2007.  Although it was only seven to eight years ago, a lot of things have changed since then, both culturally and legally.  Quite frankly from my perspective times have changed a lot since then.  I'm not happy with all the changes myself, but they are there and I deal with them the best I can.

Again, I'm not saying that LL is an Angel when it comes to dealing with their customers.  I've got my own list of dirty laundry.  But it does not include the issues here.

 

[Perrie Juran]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

Well well well, how interesting. The last time I brought money into SL was October 2013, but from memory, I did it via Lindex (out of convenience). I just tried to do it via 'Increase Credit' and got your screenshot. So LL now forces a double conversion (and two-way fees) to put $US into one's account. For the fist time in my life, I shall use the term 'raw corporate greed' to describe this change. Just when I thought LL was the dumbest company on the planet, you have shown me that it can reach new lows. All the more reason to pull money out.

---

They are not 'forcing a double coversion.'

Nothing forces you to but more  $L than you need at any given time.

[Deltango Vale]

"What would your attitude have been if you had lost all your money when Ginko folded?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same as anyone who lost a hell of a lot of money in the SL land market. Thousands of residents lost large amounts of money due to Linden Lab's terrible land management policies (starving then flooding the mainland market, changing the rating system). By your reasoning, Second Life itself should have been shut down to protect people from financial losses.

Anyone investing money in Ginko or the WSE or any other financial organization in SL or, indeed, SL itself, knew the risks. It was none of LL's business to get involved in residents' financial affairs. That's not just my opinion; it was the philosophy of SL as promoted by the company until, out of the blue, Mitch Kapor decided to play God.

An adult makes decisions and is responsible for those decisions, whether it's playing the stock market, buying high-interest bonds from the Cayman Islands, starting a business, buying virtual land or spending a weekend in Las Vegas. People lose huge amounts of money in Las Vegas. Would you shut that down too? What about motorcycle racing or paragliding or rock climbing? Ban extreme sports? Smoking, drinking, sex with strangers, eating fast food - too risky, ban them? An adult (grown-up) deals with a world full of risk and uncertainty called 'life'.

And that's the key point. Second Life began as a world for adults (grown-ups). It was admired as a world for adults (grown-ups). It was promoted as a world for adults (grown-ups). The first huge wave of residents were adults (grown-ups). It was successful because it attracted adults (grown-ups with money). Linden Lab has subsequently converted SL into a world for children (literally and figuratively). Linden Lab has become increasingly paternalistic - as a matter of policy and strategy - driving away the adults (grown-ups) that built SL, lived in SL and invested in its future. What remains is a controlled playground. Fine. If that's what LL wants, it's their world to do with as they please - but SL has become a very niche market with no prospect of economic growth because economic growth is driven by risk-takers (adults). SL2 won't change that.

As for 'the law', of course, LL should follow the law, but the law is rarely clear-cut. That's why there is a hierarchy of courts going up to the Supreme Court - to seek to understand and resolve complex issues arising from poorly written legislation that may or may not also contradict the Constitution. Law is notoriously messy. Obamacare is 2,000 pages. The US Tax Code is 72,000 pages - and no single human being understands it. Yet people speak of the law as if it were ten lines of black and white text that's obvious to everyone who reads it.

It is the task of every organization to seek to integrate messy laws with policy. This can be done well (informing customers as far in advance as possible, soliciting customer feedback, seeking to minimize the detrimental effects of laws without overtly breaking them, proceeding cautiously and wisely in the revision of policy) or done poorly, for which LL has a consistent track record.

[Perrie Juran]

---

Deltango Vale wrote:

"What would your attitude have been if you had lost all your money when Ginko folded?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The same as anyone who lost a hell of a lot of money in the SL land market. Thousands of residents lost large amounts of money due to Linden Lab's terrible land management policies (starving then flooding the mainland market, changing the rating system). By your reasoning, Second Life itself should have been shut down to protect people from financial losses.

Anyone investing money in Ginko or the WSE or any other financial organization in SL or, indeed, SL itself, knew the risks. It was none of LL's business to get involved in residents' financial affairs. That's not just my opinion; it was the philosophy of SL as promoted by the company until, out of the blue, Mitch Kapor decided to play God.

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I was new to SL at the time and my interest in these things was not the same as what my interests are now.  I do follow policy changes closer now.  Back then basically what I knew was that "something had happenned" and I've never back tracked to learn all the details.

I knew the changes LL made with land hurt many people and I'll never say it didn't suck.

Mitch's decision (if it was his and his alone: we don't know that) was a one off thing.  We don't know the total impact of what was going on and the effect it was having on the economy.  For the overall benefit of the Community the Lindex needs to remain stable.  And the potential to destabilize the Lindex was there, both short and long term.

 

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Deltango Vale wrote:

 

It is the task of every organization to seek to integrate messy laws with policy. This can be done well (informing customers as far in advance as possible, soliciting customer feedback, seeking to minimize the detrimental effects of laws without overtly breaking them, proceeding cautiously and wisely in the revision of policy) or done poorly, for which LL has a consistent track record.

---

I'm in agreement with you, too often LL has done a very poor job of communicating.  And I will never say that LL has not in some instances mismanaged SL.

But when it comes to Laws the only feedback that counts is what their Attorneys, who hopefully have some degree of competence, say.

When they implemented the tax ID policy, should they have given 30 days notice that it was going to happen so everyone could yank their money out of SL beforehand?  I'm not sure if that would have been wise either. 

For some things, no matter how you handle it, someone is not going to be happy.

 

 

[newn00b]

Is it possible that they don't release your account even if you provide all the requested information? (I guess you have no rights since you accepted TOS)

My case is open since ages. You can write 1000 coments in the open ticket they will never answer you. I guess LL really hates people who cash out real money.