Masami Kuramoto

http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/1022329-post64.html

Thanks to TPV i can export anything i am creator of, anyway. And where would you import it if SL went dark? You didn't quite get Kalel's point.

Um, nice try, House of Frye, but it's shorthand for paying the bills of Linden Lab, and providing it revenue, with our tier, which makes the world possible. Not you but your tenants pay the bills, Prokofy.

"The line you draw between professionals and amateurs exists only in your imagination." Huh? See, to make this perfectly clear: I define a professional by his or her ability to make a living by his profession. Yes, and that's why you don't understand what I am talking about. You have to look at people's skills, not at their income. There are thousands of amateurs in SL who are perfectly capable of using mesh import to their advantage. You not only ignore that, you even preemptively accuse those people of theft. Btw, i make sculpties. Vivienne, let's be honest here, just for a moment. Your main business is selling skyboxes. I've seen them on the marketplace website. And I am sure you have seen that 44-prim lighthouse built by a mesh beta tester. If someone starts selling mesh skyboxes (which you can't download from TurboSquid for obvious reasons), you will be screwed, because a mesh skybox with a prim count of 700 (equivalent to your most expensive model) will make yours look like a cardboard box. This, dear Vivienne, is the reason why you have been ranting against mesh for the past two weeks. Everything else is just smoke and mirrors.

Then you question user created content creation as whole, and entire the SL conception.The "most skilled users" in SL are not necessarily contributing any content to the public domain, but are contracted by agencies which use SL for campaigning for a corporation or whatever. These professional businesses and the corporations and agencies will benefit by Collada imports, of course, but they do not feed Second Life and never did. The line you draw between professionals and amateurs exists only in your imagination. Most sculptie designers in SL are entirely self-taught. When they joined SL, they didn't know anything about 3D graphics. SL was a new challenge for them, and this challenge is what kept their interest in SL alive. If you take away SL's challenging aspect, it will die because people will grow out of it. And there won't be enough newbies to replace them as long as SL looks like a game from 2003 (while using resources like a game from 2011).

And you are a blue mars person. You have much to gain by SL closing. You work for the competition. People need to keep that in mind when they consider anything you write or say about SL anywhere. I think the reason why Daniel and others create content for Blue Mars or IMVU is because those platforms already offer mesh import. Once you are familiar with mesh modeling, you realize how tedious and limiting prims really are. Structures that take a whole day to build with prims can be mesh-modeled within half an hour. And the prim build will always be only a crude approximation of the shape you really want. If you learned modeling with parametric prims first, then proceeded with sculpted prims, the natural upgrade path has been to leave SL and work for a mesh platform. This kind of brain drain is a problem for Linden Lab's bottom line. SL cannot grow unless it offers an upgrade path for its most skilled users and attractive content for its consumers.

"Anyone stupid enough to upload ripped content from a verified account can be traced back in RL" Since when? And if if, which is impoissible, what will happen? File a DMCA? So what? So what? Linden Lab did not invent the DMCA. If you are a creator and believe that copyright law does not protect you, there's only one thing you can do: Don't release your stuff. Keep it for yourself. Lock it away and never let it see the light of day. Then no one can steal from you. The DMCA argument against mesh import is a straw man. It is usually brought up by people who never touched a mesh modeling tool. You are not concerned about mesh designers getting ripped off; you are concerned about mesh designers destroying your prim business. You want to keep them within the confines of sculpted prim topology.

Don't say it won't happen... Because it will. No, it won't. Mesh upload requires payment info on file. Anyone stupid enough to upload ripped content from a verified account can be traced back in RL. By the way, in the realm of realtime 3D computer graphics, high-poly is actually low-quality. In SL this will be reflected by the object's prim count. Mesh modelers who can achieve impressive results with few polygons will be the most successful.

I took a 50K triangle 3ds Max model and did a save to COLLADA with no changes. It came to 9125 KB. Assuming they use the 4KB per prim value, that means an import cost of 2,281 prims, or 22,810L$. (plus whatever for the texture maps). I think the greatest deterrent to rampant ripping of existing models will be the cost to import. Import and prim cost will be derived from the compressed binary mesh data, not the plaintext COLLADA file. In fact the grid servers will never see the COLLADA files because they are converted in the viewer before upload.

Oh, no. I don't believe people are entitled to commercial success; that's silly, and socialist. Prokofy, you are a socialist. Mesh creation tools are available free of charge, but they require some effort to learn. You think that's social Darwinism. In your opinion, people should be able to make money without working. That's the core of your socialist pipedream: Punish the skilled, reward the lazy. Go ahead and wear that prim on your head, but don't forget to color it red.

Not for nothing but, should a game, a hobby, really be as hard as brain surgery? I just want to have fun and create. This is something that I noticed again and again during the debate: People either ignore the facts or misrepresent them. When mesh is here, you will be able to create just like you did before. None of the existing options will be taken away from you. You will be at a disadvantage only if you want to sell your creations. Some people here, including Prokofy, think that this is unfair. They think that everyone is entitled to commercial success by default, regardless of skill. This is protectionism. In the end, the decision is up to the consumer. Anyone who thinks that mesh should not be part of SL is free to boycott sellers of mesh assets. Vote with your wallet. But don't restrain creators who want these options for themselves because this will hurt SL as a platform for creative expression. If you think that mesh caters to a technocratic elite, you underestimate the capability of the average SL resident. There are competing platforms that thrive although they don't offer prims at all. As a content creator for IMVU you won't get very far unless you have a license for 3ds Max. That's the only building tool they officially support. For SL mesh creation you will be able to use anything you want, as long as it exports the standard COLLADA format. Of all the existing virtual world platforms, SL still has the lowest barrier to entry. Mesh will not change that.

and yet you steadfastly claim how marvellous theyre going to be for sl...and youre not actually making them anywhere ... clever.... LOL Well, let me put it this way: I've learned a thing or two about creating content for game engines. SL will benefit from meshes just like any other game. I know you disagree now, but a few weeks after mesh is rolled out on the main grid, you will agree.

So where are you making your meshes ?? I am currently not making any meshes for virtual worlds, if that is what you are referring to.

Where do you make your meshes then ? In the sl beta world ? Another virtual world ? What mesh software are you using ? You mean right now? I'm not a member of the closed beta group; I'm waiting for the open beta like everyone else. I use Blender.

In fact, if that ugly green thing in the insulting video, or that pseudo Japanese cottage in the other video, are the best they can do after a year of having the software all to themselves, it's obvious most sculpty makers and avatar creators have nothing to fear from meshes or their creators. The purpose of the closed beta test was not to show off or scare people. The purpose was to test the software. You are right, pretty much every sculptie maker can make stuff like that. But not with sculpties. And certainly not with a prim count as low as that. Which is the entire point of having mesh import. I have no doubt that most sculptie makers will embrace mesh in no time. Because it removes all the constraints of sculpted prims: limited topology, limited resolution, limited accuracy, limited control over LOD and physics.

Oh your words were 'inspirational' in fact you were one of the very people who led me to my opinion..... Well, sorry about that, but there was no other way to get through to you.

Im beginning to think if the likes of some of the people here can manage to make these meshes it might not be so complex after all.... That's what I've been trying to explain to you and Vivienne all the time.

By the way Ive been building inworld while watching the blog and got a lot farther with my build that a house consisting of a cube and a prism stuck together.... Great! So why are you complaining again?

How can the 'average' SL user use meshes when there is such a mass of software ranging from free to something which costs 3500 which requires times to learn to use...like the guy who came up with a house using google - sadly a very cubic ordinary looking house - after 24 hours of effort 'it only took him a day' I couldnt believe it.... You mean it took him a day to learn Google SketchUp? Well, yes, that's about the time it takes. He did it while you spent 24 hours complaining.

Ermmm.... in my book rezzing the product of labour at external software is not building or creating in world...what you mean is importing an external product.So basically Im right you cant build inworldwith meshes yes you can import them.. which is what Ive been saying in all my posts.... very little of the building process takes place in world... Are mshes capable of beng edited with the inworld building system by the way ?? The only asset types you can create/edit in-world are: clothing and body parts gestures notecards parametric prims linksets scripts You could never edit: animations sounds textures sculpted prims mesh objects (default avatar, plants, trees) Animations were created with Poser or Avimator, sounds were created with audio editing software, textures were created with Photoshop or GIMP, sculpted prims were created with Blender, 3ds Max, Maya or similar programs. Mesh objects could not be created at all; they were prefabs built into the viewer. Now LL is adding the option to upload mesh objects, and SUDDENLY guys like you get all cranky about it. Why didn't you complain before? If you want to be able to create mesh objects, you have to learn external software. You are in the same boat with all the animators, sound designers, texture/skin painters and sculptors. There will be no "create mesh" button in the viewer.

In addition I's seen the work people are saying is great. And it looks like crap. Period. it has not the detail we have with prims and sculpties. If LL turns SL into crappy looking avatars land then they will have put themselves down and will be gone in 2 years. There seems to be a misconception about the mesh closed beta. Its purpose was not to give highly skilled 3D modelers an opportunity to show off. Its purpose was to test the implementation. There are quite a few experienced modelers in SL who were not invited to the closed beta. And this makes perfect sense, because Linden Lab want to implement a system that the average resident can use. All that FIC and technocratic elite talk is nonsense. Regarding the quality of the example mesh avatars, I don't see what's the problem with them. If they were top quality, the doomsayers would cry about mesh being out of reach for the little guy. If they were imported from other games, the doomsayers would cry about copyrights. The nice thing about crappy avatars is that everyone can make them but no one wants to buy them. So your concern about SL turning into crappy looking avatars land has no base in reality. The default human avatar won't go away any time soon. Mesh will just make it easier to create organic non-human avatars and certain types of clothing. That's an improvement.

I can build in world with meshes ?? Yes, you can rez them and use them in your builds just like sculpted prims. Great so just point me to the building menu that lets me create mesh models To create mesh models you need a mesh editor. You can't create textures in-world either. But why would you want to create mesh models? Didn't you just say that it's too complicated and that you can't be bothered to learn it? What makes you think that an in-world mesh editor would be easier to use than 3ds Max or Blender?

I dont need to be a tech to know that I can't build inworld with meshes and that I cant see my finished creation inworld until Ive paid to import it. You can build in-world with meshes, just like you can build in-world with sculpties. There is no difference. You can't edit meshes in-world just like you can't edit sculpties. Again, no difference. Supporters of mesh have generally been dismissive of anyone voicing concern about the plans or demanding some commitment by lindens to providing us with not only a function inworld building system but an improving one. What's wrong with the current in-world building system? They also demand more and more of sl resources... Meshes will reduce resource consumption because they are more efficient than parametric and sculpted prims. Think about LEGO: There are classic LEGO bricks and there are prefab parts such as trees, windows, doors etc. You can't edit those prefab parts. A 1-piece LEGO tree will always be a tree. You don't have to use the 1-piece tree; you can build your own tree from classic bricks instead, but then you will need more parts, and the result may look a little clunky. LEGO has always worked like that, but now in SL the same principle is suddenly wrong? Why? If you want to create your own 1-piece LEGO tree, you need a LEGO factory. You can't do it "in-game".

Come on you guys can we have mesh avvys or not ?? I thought at least you techs would tow the same line I'm not in the closed beta. I'm just summing up what I've heard so far. I guess the lack of clothing layers is the dealbreaker here. Mesh avatars are still prims, after all. They just deform with the avatar skeleton. You will probably see a lot of mesh clothes, but few human avatar replacements.

I just want to see your standard mesh avvy to see how they compare with what I see in sl.... is it that complex a request ?? The default human avatar mesh is unlikely to be replaced. Most mesh avatars will be cartoon characters, robots, aliens and stuff. You can see several of those in the videos that the blog post links to. There are several reasons why mesh avatars can't replace the default human avatar: no facial and finger animations the body can be resized but not reshaped (sliders for belly size, breast size etc. don't work) mesh objects don't support multiple clothing texture layers