Ayesha Askham

@DavidThomas I suspect you may find that both eventualities will apply.This sounds like no small undertaking and is probably long overdue. Recent LL software rolls have not gone well, but I think that this period, being so critical, will be very closely watched. I also fear (though I admit I have no grounds in evidence for this) that some viewer 1 functions may be impaired by these upgrades. After all, V2 and its spawn have been with us for a long time now, and we have been given numerous warnings that optimisation of SL for V2 would degrade the usability of V1s. I should at this stage admit to being a recidivist V1 user! I think we are in for a bumpy ride this coming week, and we have no choice but to sit it out and wait and see! PS: I find it a bit annoying, though par for Linden Lab's course, that there has been no article in the Official Blog about this, considering that it will, by its nature, affect all of SL.

@Cincia Yes, unfounded and ungrounded criticism is, as always, a pointless excercise, I think we agree on that. I addressed myself principally to Tonya's point regarding SVC-7238 and LL's response. In that context I think she was entirely justified in calling the response inadequate, even if it has been, by LL standards when they aren't "knee-jerking", quite quick. The point, that this situation should never have arisen, is now moot but is going to exercise patience for some time. No -one expects Oskar to change the code, the criticism is of operations well removed from the release team. There are many within this forum that simply like to vent their spleen, and if I were Oskar, I'd've developed a pretty thick skin by now, though it can't be much fun.

@Oskar Jira filed, as you requested: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-7308.

@Cincia I don't think Tonya would make such a comment without good cause, Cincia, she's not a moaner or naysayer. As to your hopeless Rah, Rah Linden Lab attitude, it is about as valid as the naysayers' moaning. Oskar and his team do as good a job as the tools he's presented with, and some of those are well below what I would consider adequate. @ Wolf As far as testing goes, I think I have to agree with Wolf, this needs to be got right, so screwwing the Main server still further would aid no one. @Oskar One thing I have noticed post our sim's restart: our 2Extreme flying owl is broken. The movement vectors in its script seem to have been lost. I don't think it was coincidence, but not being a scripter, I have no idea what has happened. It hoots, it flaps its wings and it turns, but it simply darts from location to location at the end of its flight period. NOT expected behaviour.

@Void Sorry, for some reason I cannot edit my own post...but thanks for putting that link to Innula's post there, it will help a lot of people, not just creators. Well done, I hadn't seen it. Mind you - it doesn't increase my faith in LL, rather the opposite!

@Linden Lab and indirectly @Void Singer So far, despite Maestro's efforts, the Lab has not been able to design a fix for this bug. The tests last night on Aditi appear to have failed (see SVC-7238). There are so many cases where the user cannot use the workaround that it is not worthy of the name. There are also items, though thankfully I do not have any, where merely using the item causes it to break permanently. For that latter information I have to rely on the word of others, so I cannot place any solid proof on this blog. Tonya Souther mentions in the JIRA the Server 1.40.0 - 1.40.2 debacle of last summer, and there are a couple of other SNAFUs since then, but this simply bears out my assertion that LL's testing regime regularly and seriously falls down. That there is work going on to fix this bug is good, but time and again we are told that the faulty code "cannot be rolled back due to security issues", yet of course we are not told what those security issues are ("to detail this fix would be to provide a potential route to avoidance by miscreants"). So, we must take it on trust that our best interests are being served by Linden Lab. Sorry, I do not accept or believe that.

@Void You are missing the point again, Void. I agree, if RLV users were the only folk suffering from this bug, your point would be valid (though I doubt that Amethyst Rosencranz, Mars Tamale and several others would agree). There are many HUDs that cannot be rezzed to be updated, and over and above that there are other script-related permissions issues that are badly affected. The fact is that the test plan does seriously miss some massively important aspects of SL. It demonstrates that the programmers do not understand how SL works "live". That, to me, is very much inadequate. An understanding of "How SL is Used" by programmers is becoming necessary (actually it always has been), and it merely goes to show that with a few notable exceptions, most of the LL programmers have a totally inadequte experience of SL, due to the high turnover of staff at the Lab.

@ Oskar, and more importantly @ Linden Lab SVC-7283 is surely showing that your release procedure, which I thought would prevent this sort of catastropohe occurring is still very much inadequate. You have many scripted-item creators begging you to roll-back before too much lasting damage occurs. This is uncomfortably reminiscent of last Sunmmer's Server 1.40 debacle, but there is something under the surface of this issue which I find most disquieting. In a post on said JIRA Chorazin Allen makes a very interesting point: "Why am I asking this? Stop and think about this security fix for a moment. Breaking this behaviour is not the result of a programmer putting a decimal point in the wrong place or some similar accident. Breaking it was intended - two diferent script functions were changed, error messages were added - in short, I think the security fix 'functions as designed'. Similarly, I presume that it passed QA and functioned as designed there too. The problem is that the design of the fix either failed to consider the genuine use cases here, or was purposely designed to block them based on some exploit very close to, but different from, the genuine use cases. Which is it? Will the ability to give objects and scripts to worn items be restored or is it gone for good in its present form?" This gives me a most uncomfortable feeling that there is method in this apparent madness, and may also go some way to explain the apparent lassitude in LL's "fix programme" I think there is some "owning up" to be done by Linden Lab here. At the least it shows beyond any remaining doubt in my mind, that a huge proportion of Linden Lab programmers have NO IDEA how Second Life actually functions. That there is far too little "InWorld" activity by said Linden employees, and the upshot is that they had no conception of what effect the changes they were introducing would actually have. If this is the case, and I'm bound to say I think that it IS, then Linden Lab have lost any credibility with a substantial portion of its customers. That is the road to Hell and failure, Linden Lab.

Just an update. It is now reported as affecting ALL server sets including the updated RCs, as was predicted prior to the rolls commencing. Go see SVC-7283 and vote or watch, this is going to be a biggie. C'mon guys, this is a gamebreaker for all sorts of folk.

@Jack Maybe this is the reason? I would guess there wasn't any testing. "Changes were made to the permissions system and to simulator configuration, but should have no impact on existing builds History: https://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Release_Notes/Second_Life_RC_LeTigre/11#1.09.02.239988"This from the heading post in the release notes.

@ Wolf I will try to be careful how I word this, since I seem to have got badly up Void's nose elsewhere in this Forum. Being in the UK as well, I don't see pings as high as yours unless there's an issue, more typically 120-200ms. However, just lately I have had a large nuber of TP errors, mainly simply resulting in failed transfers, but some resulting in log-outs. In some cases SL clearly "loses" me, since I am at home on relog, more often than not with a reversion in state of scripted items. Texture transfer is certainly slow, rebakes are even slower and occasionally I even have some chat lag. No packet loss however...odd. Now in time-honoured fashion I have reset router and modem, checked connection speed etc, all to no avail, even rebooted my PC. None of these remedies make the slightest difference. The issue comes and goes as it pleases, or so it seems. Some time-served SL inmates seem to be convinced that LL is at the bottom of this, or rather their servers are, the others, most often seen in these pages, think otherwise, so I must fall back on my own experience. I am left largely none the wiser by all this, but on the whole, Wolf, I have to say that your experience is not by any means unique, but it is irritatingly, if understandably, unaddressed.

@Marigold No smiley face? No...I don't "game". I doubt that Nalates will lose sleep over my irritation. As for attacking Oskar, I have never done that, I know that he and his team do their best, they're at the customer interface and they get plenty of flak from others besides me. As to the Capital Letter...I seem to spray those liberally around my typing - I must be part German! To explain, by "Geekery" I mean an attitude that finds the medium more important than the message. Just as an aside I now see that simply getting into SL can be a bit of a palaver (and no, it isn't my router or ISP). Inventory server maintenance? Yeah, of course it was....:smileywink: @Void....geesh sorry I used the wrong word...Bite me.

@Nalates Your response, while being accurate up to a point begs the question of bias in the same way that Linden Lab does. There is a degree of smugness in your response that I find irritating in one so deeply involved in helping other residents of Second Life. You pretty much make my point for me regarding the balance between fixing broken elements and introducing new features, leading me to level a charge of Geekery at you. The statement "That's life in the software world, deal with it." really sums up your attitude to SL. As a Brit I simply don't accept that premise. I DO deal with it...every day, but I DON'T have to be silent about it. Oh, and while Mesh may not be the only problem, it surely IS the main one.

@Wolf and Marigold You are looking at the same issue from different sides. There are unresolved bugs affecting the whole of SL that are taking uncountable ages to fix, and there are some sectional ones that seem to be resolved quickly. Not all are difficult to reproduce. The recently increasingly serious issue of slow texture-rezzing, via http get, is one that is pretty universal, yet it has been effectively ignored for months, because it will involve, most likely, expenditure on new and more powerful central severs. The main gripe most folk have is the dearth of information released by Lindens. The latter is improving, thanks in no small part to Rod Humble, who at last has convinced the board of Linden Lab that they actually do have to pay some attention to their customers. What we also must remember is that SL was conceived as a technogical tour-de-force, a "Geek-driven-thing", so it truly is a matter of "aww, that broke...never mind, look at this new 'Shiny'". There are many in SL and a large number at LL who are far more interested in innovation than in fixing broken things. Now that don't impress me much, but I am increasingly of the belief that what I want or need is simply irrelevant to a substantial portion of the LL personnel. Those of us that use SL for essentially social purposes, with a smattering of building activity are not the folk that interest much of Linden Lab, so our concerns go largely unaddressed. We simply don't register with them, our complaints are seen as trivial or fatuous. However, and this is one definite matter, nothing would ever be fixed at all if we didn't have these irritating weekly rolls. LL have ably demonstrated that even these small iterations can have catastrophic effects on the SL hardware if not painstakingly checked, and sometimes still do after the best checking they can do. I, for one, do not wish to return to the debacles of last summer, much less the hopeless mess that SL sometimes was a couple of years ago.

@Oskar Thanks for the explanation, Oskar. The matter is now understood, even by me!:matte-motes-confused: @ Juggernutz & Void On a 5000series Homestead (Woods of Heaven sim no 5680), I'm not seeing these issues, in fact the sim seems to be performing well at present, despite having a couple of temp-rezzers running on-sim. Whether that tells you anything useful or not I don't know. Mind you we are very script-load conscious these days.

@Dilbert I know they are trying their hardest to keep to timelines Dilbert, you misunderstand me. It was the disparity between last week's 12noon BST start and this week's supposed 2pm BST start that bothered me. I know roughly when within a roll our sim will restart, it has been predictable to about 15 minutes quite easily, now that extra restarts have not been necessary. I now suspect that Oskar's 6am PDT roll time was a typo, since the roll actually commenced at 5am PDT. The overall predictability of Server updates has been a great boon, and since the Kelly/Mesh mess of a few weeks' back things have been really smooth on our sim. I've been in SL over 3 years now, Dilbert....I know how much better things are now!:womanhappy:

@Oskar This is not critical so I'm posting here where you will see it after the holiday. I note the time for the roll this week on the Main Server set is 6:00am PDT, last week it was 4:00am PDT, the calendar on the Status page says 5:00am PDT. WTF is going on? You brought in these weekly rolls to allow some forward planning of SL activities I thought. How in the name of all that is virtual can we plan when the time of restarts varies every week? The last few rolls on Main Server have been smooth, I am glad to say, but this variation of the time is a pain and merits an explanation, please. I know an hour doesn't seem too much, but you try turning up for an appointment or a meeting an hour late and see what happens!

@Nalates You talk about this topic as though it is a minor inconvenience. To some folk it is a major roadblock in their enjoyment of SL. It is not the load placed on the servers by v2 alone that is causing this, it is the fact that a certain popular v1 viewer, called Phoenix also uses HTTP get, and so do several others. Now as I read your post, it seems to me that a serious underestimate of the load likely to be placed on the servers was made some time ago, and in the rush and push to get Mesh out onto the grid it was almost forgotten. This is a prime example of technologists working to put new features into a system they simply don't use, or understand. So, once Mesh is out they will (maybe) get round to fixing a broken feature? Gee, wow! Thankyou. So a feature in broken....never mind look at this new "shiny"...do they never learn?

@Zena While what Peggy says is true, it also begs the question. I have been seeing poor response times from the asset servers now for a considerable time, and no amount of resetting of router, modem or any other user-serviceable items alter it. Bandwidth changes have no effect: (I must qualify that; bandwidth changes have no positive effect. Getting it wrong can have a very serious negative effect). Sim ping times seem good, so it is not server-viewer lag. No, I agree with you, Zena, there is an issue. As to whether it is the actual asset server or the sim-server interaction is another matter. Those more learned in geekery might be able to elucidate.

@Oskar Two things. Firstly was there a particular reason for the restart to begin one hour earlier than usual this week? Secondly as Void and Peewee have more eloquently put it, please stop this login floater issue, it is more than off-putting it is damned sloppy. Also I noticed today that despite my logging on to post this, the page still displayed a "sign in" request at top right until I hit "reply". Also every action I take on this page now brings up that damned floater. What with Void brandishing a ruler and Peewee doing what Peewee does..nothing I could add would be half as potent, but, please, Oskar....get it sorted.

@Void, Peewee, Kestrel and Linden Lab This "file a ticket" idiocy really must stop. The standard of support given by your system, Linden Lab is so variable it would be an insult to call it patchy. I experienced both ends of the scale this weekend. One "operator" clearly couldn't be bothered to read what I typed and simply stated that I needed to "file a ticket". Then the operator simply hung up. The next operator could not have been more helpful. Mysteriously the issue resolved while I was actually on the chat line....Hmm. I did in fact file a ticket, correctly in the correct section (I was lucky). The reply from LL was wrong - they got their facts muddled. I didn't have a lot of faith in LL, now I have a great deal more in one of their support partners. Linden Lab these people make you look plain stupid.

@Void No, Void it is not a server issue, but since Tristizia was watching this thread I posted a direct reply. Also, since folk seeking info on this thread would see this issue, it IS relevant to this thread. Not everyon can afford to be permanently logged in, nor would most folk wish to be so. Ay PS Er...what "Feedback link"? The community webpage doesn't have a "feedback" tab.

@Tristizia No, I have not tried any other browsers. I used to use Firefox occasionally and even used Safari, never Opera. My point would be that IE is used by a pretty substantial percentage of the browsing community, if not the majority. That being the case it behooves Linden Lab to get this sorted for IE users even if other browsers do not exhibit such behaviour (and frankly I'd be very surprised if some don't)...I know IE has issues, but it's not THAT bad! It seems odd that it should suddenly begin to happen while I have done nothing at my end of the piece of wire.

@Tristizia For my sins IE, and to make matters worse IE9 via Windows 7 64 bit. Dunno why that would make a difference actually. Ay PS It is still happening.

@Chriss Platitudes. I know the bug is not harmful, you know it...but do casual users know it? So far as I know, Secondlife is for "everyman", not geeks. The power of supposition is not to be underestimated. It is not the bug that is harmful, but the image of SL that it promotes.