Romaq Rosher

To me, it just looks like a simple case of, "Mine's bigger than yours... INFINITY!" I'm quite happy to persue a more modest goal.

Oh, is anyone working on a Naga, or 'Snake Avatar'? The problem with a proper ferret avatar is that even though we don't have any more bones in our necks than a human (or less than a giraffe), our necks are long in proportion to our bodies, and rather flexible. In a sense, a ferret is much like a fuzzy snake that happens to have legs. I do believe Avatar Mesh Torture will become a very interesting field of study. Who's with me?

Something else I would suggest, particularly on the larger meshes... I would strongly suggest on things intended to be 'large scale' that the person start with a low poly model *first*, and keep with that as their physics model, and then increase the detail but keep the detail closely within the low rez model. I encountered "TheSpireLow_025-mesh", and I'm very glad to see it. This is the sort of thing I would like to do within SL. It is a huge spiral, rock-appearing landform that spirals into the sky, and goes up several hundred meters into the air. Unfortunately, the physics bounding box is quite a bit off in some spots. Before something like that is ready for prime-time, the artist will need to redo it so the physics mesh more closely aproximates the visible mesh. MUCH more closely. Other than that, hawt-damn I'm happy to see this sort of thing!

Bones! Avatar stuffs... simplebot.dae (one that's NOT freakin' locked)? Any word on how I can shrink my avatar bones smaller than the standard slider bars? Don't MAKE me start peekin' up pant-leg cuffs lookin' for dem bones!

It's the 12th, and I look forward to more info on what we can do with mesh. I've been reading up & learning Blender. is a good movie to watch in terms of seeing what Blender is capable of. I do note that 'fur/ hair' and 'normal maps' and so on and so forth won't cross the SL boundary at this time. But I do dearly look forward to seeing what things may come.

Qie Niango: Yeah, I do think that sculpty terrain is dead after Mesh except for some very special applications, but it's a bit complicated: Yes, making it a very good thing to talk about going into the open beta. Meshes probably won't work at megaprim scale. Details are sketchy at the moment, but best guess is that mesh max size on any dimension will be 64m, so it would take 16 meshes to fully tile a region (which isn't always the objective). In my case, I'm simply worried about a 4096 sq.m. lot. The scanner I spoke of before used 32x32m megaprims and had some issues with precision along the Z axis when the terrain shape became more extreme. Irregular shaped lots were also a pain. And then of course you have no physical map. Each mesh object can have 8 "faces" (specified with something like "material ID" in the modelling program), so that means 8 possible texture maps per mesh. That opens up a huge opportunity for terrain appearance -- and a new level of complexity in actually generating that appearance. (It's not as if those textures will just fade into each other automatically, as with Linden terrain.) The picture in my mind is something like this: You can not change the elevation in mainland an on many estate sims, but you would be shape a natural terrain into a hill, and have that hill fit the natural contour of the location you have to work in. Both of my last two places to live in where in the side of a hill with a beautiful view. But as is the way of things, a beautiful view usually means an annoying place in which to build, especially if you have limits on elevation changes. Even if one can not smoothly blend textures as the natural mesh land does, one can plan on 'natural rocks' to break the fake land surface and choose what texture from there. I'm getting ideas of what I could do. If I can plan on getting a land surface map into blender, then shape that surface as I wish within the limits of the natural land, I believe there is some work I can do with that. Perhaps a very expensive 'mesh landscaping' service? Perhaps one could have 'basic hobbit home' design, and when placing the home a script could read the area the home is placed in and send terrain data back to a server such as JVTek uses. The buyer of the home could then download from the website a 'mesh skirt' that fits both the home and the land surface they are in, and the home owner would pay the cost of the personalized service. By the way, I think the number of 'faces' is higher. A tube and a box can have at least 9 distinct faces according to the wiki. To match complex visual appearance of the terrain model would require a relatively complex physical model, too. To partially sidestep that, one could first terraform the Linden land mesh to some approximation of the desired terrain physical model (lacking caves, etc), and then omit or greatly simplify the mesh's physical model. I believe Blender will cheerfully perform the operation for standard models, though I have to look through it. With 2d images you can scale them to have the same information on less data. Same with .jpg images with lossy compression. I expect that to be a 3d process as well, to throw away vertices to simplify the shape while attempting to preserve crucial detail. Given the nature of SL, a relatively simple shape is more than enough for the physics engine we are using. (I would presume this is how most sculpty terrains work now.) That would be an incorrect presumtion. The sculpties are set phantom, and then you have the joy of trying to use invisible prims to get a relatively close approximation of the terrain people *see*. A relatively simplified physics mesh would save much painful blue agony. Also, big meshes are assigned high primcounts (that of the highest LOD, because they're always seen at the highest LOD). So if one isn't careful, a sim could have no prims left after mesh terrain is in place. Considering the current situation, if a mesh can go as high as 64^3 in volume, that would be eight times the volume at better resolution than sculpties with at least a quarter of the 'objects'. Sculpties require that you use more of them in the same volume for greater elevation changes if a greater contour accuracy (so ground doesn't peek through). You can't easily put 'holes' within a terrain sculpty. Mesh would permit that, at least in theory. For larger areas of complex sculpty ground, you have to use invisible prims, which also reduce the prim count. Yes, mesh is a complex solution to the problem, but given the disadvantages of sculpty, I believe it is a net gain. We just have to see to what degree Linden Labs adjusts mesh costs in prims vs. the more agonizing sculpty method. Jennifur, I'm very curious about the UVW map example you have above... Is it true, in fact, that we will be able to do the same mapping off a single texture and apply it to our meshes? Will we be able to change what texture is being used using LSL, say, to change a wall texture applied using scripts? Alter the color of a roof with a click on a wall controller? Will we be able to apply multiple distinct textures to a single mesh the way we currently can apply six distinct textures to a single SL cube? Getting back to that 'house' reference, will I be able to create the house as a single mesh, then change the texture applied to the walls separate from the texture applied to the ceiling? Or will I have to use separate meshes to have distinctly separate textures applied to them?

Welleran Kanto: Very excited to see mesh import coming soon. Hoping very much that I'll be able to use blender on my Mac to participate in making SL beautiful interesting (and keeping the lag low). No kidding. You folks know about https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/LandMap-Change-your-ground-texture-without-land-powers/236734 right? Makes a sculpty map of the ground surface? So... I would suppose now we can use the same 'map the ground mesh' technique to make the collada mesh info, shape at whim (leaving the border edges) and complete it with a physical map mesh, upload that, and we would have even better control over our ground mesh. Hrm... I wonder if Jathra Vanmoer (JVTek) has considered this...

Masami Kuramoto: As Jennifur pointed out earlier, there will be no Avatar 2.0 without Linden Lab making it the default built-in one. Mesh is not a solution here because there are no clothing layers on a mesh. Which means you can't combine <random skin> with <random tatoo> and <random shirt>. And then of course there is the problem of missing morph targets. You may be correct, but I would like to talk the problem out in hope of a solution. Linden Lab made the 'Box Bot' from Grendel's Children the 'default tiny', even though it isn't a Wynxian Tiny, but it is still in the inventory, and it uses the 'standard body crusher'. The 'Box Bot' is still enough to provide people to learn from the body crusher and do what they want. I suspect if the Raglan Shire Tinys were not out-competing Grendel's Children with standard, cute body-crushed avatars (and providing a fantastic, vigorous community to boot) then the 'box bot' would have become the standard for Tinys, but it isn't. Of course, Loco Pocos has their own community and their own standard, and somehow it's the LP avatar that made it onto the SL Voice Changer logo, rather than a Wynxian Tiny. I don't begrudge them, as really the LP Tinys are also a part of the Raglan Shire community. Not to get distracted from the main point... 'Something Really Missing' was created... several of these, actually. The part that was missing, the body crusher, a suite of avatars that use the crusher, animations and so on caught the attention of people seeking that type of thing. The Cost of Entry (that which permitted people to 'make stuff for it') was kept low, and key people worked in partnership with the original artists to foster a community. They very deliberately put community focus ahead of personal gold-digging, at least to the best I can tell. I could be wrong, fans of Raglan Shire and Loco Pocos are welcome to jump in here, since this Mesh business will impact us as well. The practical side of it, I personally don't care if Avatar 2.0 rolls out, as it does not affect me directly. But as part of the greater Second Life community, I know that it does affect me that people should find reasons to be excited and entertained with the Second Life world. In my opinion, all Avatar 2.0 really needs is one capable artist willing to tackle the issue of Avatar 2.0 willing to make that 'low cost of entry' for people to MAKE stuff for Avatar 2.0, and some key people willing to work with that artist to put the greater community first, gold-digging second. It would be better, of course, to have more than one capable artist willing to work on aspects of the problem and put it in the form of, "May the best artist win AND be willing to share." It would be better, of course, to have capable people who understand the specific problems of Avatar 1.0, how Avatar 2.0 can solve those problems, lay the groundwork, and otherwise explain to people, "Here is the problem with Avatar 1.0, here's why we think Avatar 2.0 is a good idea, here is what you can do to be involved." This would free up the artists to focus on art, and also figure out how a winning Avatar 2.0 is to be judged without having a conflict of interest for being one of the artists. I'm not sure if Linden Labs would sign off on something like this. I'm reasonably certain LL has more pressing needs than to tackle this particular problem at this time. I'm as certain as the existance of Loco Pocos, Wynxian Tinys and other brans of avatars, Avatar 2.0 can be a reality with or without Linden involvement. Would LL involvement help? Yeah, it likely could. Can I think of some ways LL could totally screw this up by being involved? Heh. Can anyone think of situations where LL's 'blessing' has been mixed, or bordering on a curse? I'm in favor of those who have a vested interest in an Avatar 2.0 taking control of the situation, and Linden Lab can be (politely, respectfully) damned. The Raglan community I'm a part of is one example where that has worked. Grendel's Children is going to crank out freak-tackular avatars as always, and I greatly look forward to shopping there after a year of mesh being part of the picture. There are other, already existing 'special avatar' communities that are going to rock mesh. It would be sad, in my mind, if the hoo-mans muttered, wringing their hands about waiting on Linden Labs to commit to something for Avatar 2.0 to 'work'. I'm not going to wait around on you 'hoo-mans' to get Avatar 2.0 together, or for Linden Labs to have any involvement. I may publish a butt-ugly mesh ferret that nobody in their right mind would want for their avatar... I'm still going to do this. If all you hoo-mans want to wait on someone else to put it together for you, that sounds like a problem. I'm glad it's not my problem. But I do hope there are people tired of waiting, and are willing to take control over their own hoo-man destiny. I love to rub ankles with those people. I'll watch for you on The Grid. Cheers! Oh... P.S. with respect to the problem of 'mesh avatar' + 'mesh clothing'... if there is a standard and the slider bars work within that standard, we'll have to go with multiple attachment points. Wynxian avatars do not have a 'standard' for this, and clothing gets kinda messy sometimes. Loco Pocos avatars *DO*, as I understand it. Score one for Loco Pocos. As I understood it, we can have more than one thing attached to the 'head' attachment point, for example. I'll have to try it out. If that's true, attach your mesh head to your head, attach your hat to your head, both are standardized to Avatar 2.0, both fit. At least that's what I hope. Please prove me wrong on this so other solutions can be looked at. I'm going to have the same problem with my ferret avatar. I'd love to have someone else solve my problems free of charge. >:-)

Wayfinder: Since we have no way of fortelling the future, I'm relegating this to "I guess we'll see what happens". I'm going to try hard to not lose any sleep over the matter until we hear someting more concrete. : ) That was pretty much my take. I'm still investing in SL, but I'm diverting some of the time & resources from 'time in SL' to 'time evaluating potential alternatives (again)' and 'time making a grid-agnostic avatar'. By that, I mean an avatar I created myself that, butt-ugly or no, I'll be able to use it at-will on any grid that allows me to upload & create. I'm excited about the potential of mesh avatars, but things like the demise of Avatars United have me 'concerned' about trusting my ass-ets with any one asset server I don't completely control. It isn't that I don't trust Linden Labs, or Microsoft, or Google. But I don't trust Linden Labs, or Microsoft, or Google. Anyway, I need to sort out removing my subscription to this thread. My only real interest here is the irony should Microsoft do to SL what Linden did to XStreetSL and Avatars United. Nothing personal, I really don't know anyone in this discussion. But... wow.

Sorry for the long post, and it isn't very coherent. It was a long day at work, and I see glimmers of hope for something very cool here, so I hope I can be forgiven and maybe I have an idea worth considering here. I'd like to point out by way of SL precedent, there is the 'Tiny' community based upon the Avatar Body Crusher that was made 'open'. That is, people could have for free the base 'standing' animation that crushes their avatar to be 'tiny'. Wynx Whiplash then made suite of very nice prim avatars built around such crushed avatars. Damien Fate and Washu Zebrastripe of Loco Pocos also formed a different type of crush effect, but opened their sculpty avatar to development based on very specific standards for avatar compatibility. So you had communities formed around specific products, with the 'base standard' being made open or otherwise licensed for development. Clothing for 'Tinys' that fit one 'Wynxian' avatar generally fit other avatars of the same kind. You have the same situation with Loco Pocos, and the same situation currently in development with 'Wynx Quad Tinys', like the ferret that I currently enjoy. You have a product and a community that develops around that product. So here's a silly question... what if there were a contest in Beta for 'the best Avatar 2.0 mesh'? Some rules for the contest might center on a SHORT, SPECIFIC list of things as to why SL avatar meshes suck the green weenie that Avatar 2.0 MUST address. Every avatar submitted must also be original work created by the person submitting... no plagerism or ripping content from other works. The mesh must be supplied with high quality example skins. And one very crucial wringle in it, I think... Avatar 2.0 must work with existing animations and attachment points. You could even have categories in addition to make/ female. You could have 'child' and 'plus size beautiful'. If possible, generic clothing of one should be usable on another mesh. It may not look 'pretty', but it would help development a great deal if it can be managed. The winning submission for each category will have their product placed in the library, the way Adam & Eve, Grendle's Children and other shops have their products promoted through the library. And, of course, the winning entry would have the jump in making clothing and accessories that seamlessly interact with the winning avatar meshes. There are holes and flaws with this proposal, it's very sketchy, and I've not taken time to flesh it out. But it's an idea based upon my experience in such a community. If you wear a Loco Pocos avatar, you can make clothing for it and feel secure knowing anyone ELSE who wants what you make will enjoy it with their LP avatar. Same for Wynxian Tinys & Quads. If someone makes up their own 'thing', the greater Tiny community supports and encourages that, to some extent, but 'we' obviously won't ditch avatars we are happy with and make stuff for until we see something so much better, we *HAVE* to *HAVE* it too! So as long as we are rolling this thing around why not make a 'de-facto' solution to https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3432 ? Of course, it would help a great deal for Linden Labs to 'accept' Avatar 2.0 and incorporate it at least into the library, if not as a new 'default' avatar, but Wynx & company did Tinys without official Linden support. Avatar 2.0 doesn't 'require' Linden Support, per se, but a very public and noisy contest (and willingness of highly skilled artists to offer a cheap or open 'standard') can certainly put a 'de facto' Avatar 2.0 out there for public consumption. And Linden Lab may not acknowledge it, but if Avatar 2.0 solves VWR-3432 issues and forms a community of high-end fashion and large public support behind it, LL can end up looking silly while the greater community of fashion designers and artists build upon the base. It's just an idea. I'm not clear on if I can make anything other than an ugly thing not-quite-a-ferret that is nothing but a shame and embarrassment for me to use, but it will be mine. I'll do the best I can and avoid problems, and I intend to publish my mesh as an open standard with donations for use welcome. I don't know if I'll cause anything but revulsion, but I'll have done it, it'll be mine, and I'll have learned enough to be able to work on making it better over time. I would *like* the 'human Avatar 1.0 mesh' issues to be fixed, or at least not have the human avatar appear not so horrid at the smaller end of the scale (kid avatars) or at the 'obese' side of the scale. I'm tubby, but if I'm inclined to go as 'human' I'll go as *me*, and everyone else be damned. I'm frustrated that the Avatar 1.0 mesh fails around the 'less used' ends of the slider scale. You know, when people DO NOT want 2.1m ridiculously buff avatars. Anyway, I'd love to hear some hope on solving https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-3432 with an 'Avatar 2.0' someone will release free or at a low cost license along the same lines as how Tinys, Quad Tinys and Loco Pocos have come about. And, of course, people will still be able to create and do their own thing. But if there is an Avatar 2.0 and people making a wide range of clothing and accessories for it (and obviously superior to today's tech) what would be the point of making another *human* mesh? Is there anyone interested in an Avatar 2.0 contest? People skilled enough to seriously pull it off *AND* willing to license it in the same pattern as the Tiny brand body crushers and other 'non-standard avatar' communities?

Sorry, ya'll. I'm still stuck on the thought of Microsoft buying out Linden Labs for the purpose of raiding any useful technology, closing the open-source and shutting SL down in favor of something they already have in the works. Or maybe I have it all wrong, and Microsoft isn't known for doing that sort of thing. So if what LL did to AU was good or bad, Microsoft is waving the money around, it would appear. I've already paid for Second Inventory and made use out of it. And I'm exploring the alternatives. Maybe all the battle of words gives you folks jolly feelings, but I'm still curious if a 'Linden Labs' or 'Second Life' will exist as we know it to give a damn who wins this little tiff of a message thread. Or maybe it's so vicious simply because there is nothing of consequence to 'win'. Whatever. There are a great many things Linden Labs can do. Own my sense of self in the 'Net, my avatar, my resources, my creative spark... these are not things I will permit Linden Labs to own. If the whole thing with Avatars United bothers you, maybe the thing to do is make sure you have full control over your 'Avatar Existance' and allow Linden Labs, Microsoft or any other corporate suit to sit-n-spin. It isn't cheap, but it can be done. Maybe that's something to do of some lasting consequence... how can we make the corporate gyrations of buying, breaking and selling out simply irrelevant? Or you can go back to bickering because YOU know YOU are right, the other person is being an idiot, and you have to score a 'win' on a message thread that by next quarter nobody will remember or care should Linden Labs, possibly even Second Life cease to exist. But hey, at least you brought amusement to the rest of us for a few days on a message forum, so it isn't a total loss. I mean, the point is to enjoy yourself, right? Are you not entertained?

@Cobalt: Yes, very. I plan to putter with such tonight, or at least get as close as I can to it. Also, I recall seeing some discussion on Blender vs. DAZ vs. a list of other programs. With Mesh Avatars we've several issues: The Mesh itself Bones & rigging Animation Texturing http://www.qavimator.org/ is free, but it doesn't have the other features. Would someone have a web page, or perhaps help work on one that gives advantages & disadvantages as well as retail price of the various packages? I don't have $5k to spend, but I may spend *SOME* money rather than fight a useless war against a freebie program. QAvimator = PAIN!

If there is any truth to the rumors of Microsoft buying Linden Labs out, one has to wonder if Second Life will face the fate of Avatars United.

/me makes an extensive raid on the 'Net for ferret bones & skins...

@Jennifur Vultee: Thank you for the info about bone offsets! Put a white fedora and eyeglasses on the ferret in this video and that's how I'd like to be seen interacting with 'biggies' (normal avatars) within SL.

Critical to the bone issue... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/VWR-11397? (Smaller Avis without being Tinys or More features for poor Tinys) My preferred avatar, a quad ferret, should have a length of about 20 inches (51 cm) including a 5 inch (13 cm) tail. The Jira link has many people who also seek a smaller avatar than what is supported, for various avatar types. I will be watching the development of rigging for avatars very closely to see if we can ditch the body crushers and simply focus on groups of bones & animations to support two leg & four leg 'small-ish' avatars.