[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Griefer board their griefer-cube, making it into a vehicle, they attempt to fly/drive/sail the griefer-cube-mobile into your parcel, they get stopped at the border by the ban-lines and zero second orb, unsat from their griefer-cube-mobile, and that is refused entry because, no longer sat on, it is NO LONGER a vehicle, and no-object-entry STOPS it, if your orb is faulty and allow more than zero seconds trespassing, then the parcels 1 min auto-return deals with the litter.

OK, yeah this is a fair concern, I think it sounds like something that we could make the design cover though.

For example, if the agent the vehicle belongs to doesn't have access to the parcel, it could be made so the sim returns the vehicle.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Vehicles are, for some unimaginable reason, EXEMPT from "no object entry", it's one of those "standard griefer exploits" they SIT on their griefer prim, edit into the "no object entry" area, and LEAVE IT THERE.

 

OK, Yeah, that sounds dumb. I'd personally actually advocate for another setting to disallow vehicle entry. Contrary to what you might think, I'm not for pushing vehicles into parcels where they're not wanted.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

I used to sail years ago and not once felt the need to stand up to watch a sunset.

I understand what it's like to not be able to enjoy simple joys. I'm sorry for your loss.😞

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Why add a "tool" to allow parking that guaranteed to see more use for griefing than parking?

The evidence is on the contrary, given the amount of tools would-be griefers already have, and how little grief actually gets committed.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

Nothing is stopping exploration by not letting people park their vehicles.

But this is not really true is it. If you are unable to stop and get out of your vehicle without losing it, you're not going to stop to get out and look in that one shop near the road, because you will lose your vehicle and chances are not be able to find anywhere nearby to rez it.

If you're unable to stand in a boat on the virtual sea, you're unlikely to go sailing and stop to watch the sunset with your partner on the deck.

I would say that you wouldn't even bother rezzing a vehicle, because you know ahead of time of these inconveniences, and therefor opt to teleport instead of taking the scenic route.

In the end your choices on how you get around and the activities you do in SecondLife are not just arbitrary, they are the result of the world and how it is designed, what is actually enjoyable in SecondLife, and what experiences the world is designed to provide you with.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Rowan Amore said:

[snip] every single place I've ever shopped in SL has been either on a private estate or, if on mainland, in a skybox [snip] Seriously, how many people would this even affect? 

Chicken and the egg. Why build a parking lot when there are insufficient tools to allow a customer to park without also allowing grief?

Why build a world for exploration, when the tools for exploration are insufficient?

In the big picture, exploration is one of the few things SecondLife's got going for it that other platforms don't really have. We've got whole continents to explore where other virtual worlds just have private lobbies. Strengthening SL's strengths makes it more resilient.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

8 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Treat a "parked/anchored" vehicle as an avatar attachment. If we're making changes, increase the distance the avatar can move away from the "anchored" attachment with the tradeoff that the attachment won't be allowed to move/be moved while anchored and it can't be anchored on a parcel that doesn't allow object entry.

Is it actually possible to drive vehicles right now into a parcel that doesn't have object entry on? that sounds counter intuitive

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

22 minutes ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Which is why turning every place on the grid not owned by people like ME, into a vast griefer approved sandbox.

So you are saying the vast majority of people are NOT like you?

🤔

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

13 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Worth a thought! If multiple users park their vehicles to go shopping and it impacts the available LI, then chaos can ensue (intentional or not).

One option would be that in addition to abandonment radius, if the parcel is low on prims, then subject vehicles to regular auto-return regardless if the user who drove the vehicle is near or not.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

SecondLife is one big griefing potential. If someone really wants to grief you now, they have plenty of toys to do so.

And yet I haven't seen an actual griefer in like 10 years. Most of SecondLife's audience is pretty mature now.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but keep things down to earth.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

With that said, I think that vehicles do count towards LI? I seem to remember hitting a parcel border in the past and being told I can't enter because the region is full.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

3 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

@Extrude Ragu, once an avatar "unseats" from their vehicle to go shopping, wouldn't the vehicle be added to the prims / LI count "used" on the parcel?

If so, wouldn't this potentially lead to "parcel full" errors, etc.?

(Sorry, I did not see this in your OP.)

If your intention is that "personal vehicles with no seated avatar do not add to prim / LI count", then that "sounds" like a departure from the current rules.

(It's my weak understanding that vehicles with seated avatars are treated as "attachments", in the aspect that they do not add to the parcel prim / LI count.)

 

It's a fair concern, one solution might be to simply not count it towards LI if it's a non-abandoned vehicle that's just not currently sat on. Basically treat it the same as a vehicle that is sat on.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, elleevelyn said:

based on llGetObjectDetails then I think vehicle type is a property of the script, is not a property of the prim. So I think vehicle for this purpose would be any prim sat on

I don't think this would cause a problem, since the sim knows about script properties of prims (otherwise, how would it run the scripts and send the output to your viewer?)

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Use public transport teleport, only anti-social prim-pollution spamming people feel the need to DRIVE everywhere.

Shopping, it's what Teleporting was invented for.

No :u

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

16 minutes ago, elleevelyn said:

the issue with the longer times was vehicle abandonment and lost prims, You be going down the highway and then can't go any further because next Parcel Full due to abandoned vehicles and random prims lost by builders on the region

Yes this is why I think that parcel auto-return timers are not really good enough, when it comes to vehicles. The amount of time a vehicle spends somewhere is not an indicator of whether it was abandoned. Timers will incorrectly return vehicles people are still using, and fail to return vehicles that people have since abandoned.

I really do think we need to be able to set vehicle abandonment based on if the driver/passengers remain nearby. This would more quickly return vehicles that are abandoned, whilst not annoying people by returning their vehicle prematurely when it wasn't abandoned.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

I don't know about you but I like to spend more than 5 minutes when I am shopping

</zalificent>

<thread>

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

I guess there would be a few edge cases to have to define though such as what happens during this time if an avatar rezzes another vehicle while their other vehicle is still rezzed.  Is it abandonment just to temporarily leave that parcel?  Is it a vertical range as well or just horizontal?

I don't have any fundamental objections in principle to such a scheme if it can be made to work well, especially if applied to LL public land and as long as it would not replace the existing system.  I'm not sure I would prefer to use it on my airstrip for example.  The auto-return works very well there.

Yes I am not imagining changing the existing system.

One way to do it might be a new parcel setting, which defines Personal Vehicle return?

 

Crude mockup, but something like this. As long as the avatar stays within the radius of the vehicle, it wouldn't be returned. Then if you're a store owner you could define parking that lets your customers shop as long as they like, without their vehicle getting returned. If you want them to be able to wander off to the whole region, you could type in 999. If you're Zalificent and want the cars to GTFO, you can type in 0.

 

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Zalificent Corvinus said:

Oh I did read it.

No, you didn't, because you suggested something could happen that wouldn't be possible to happen, based on the implementation.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

So I think this can be done pretty inexpensively. LL Servers are tuned for fast ID lookups of objects and avatars in their cache. Objects and avatars have properties, like their name, description, and hidden properties such as vehicle type or whether or not the object is sat upon etc.

What LL would do is add a new hidden property called 'Personal Vehicle' to our avatars. It would contain the ID of the last vehicle you sat on. So if you sit on one car, the property is set, and then if you sit on another, the property is changed to the new car. This lookup would be just as fast as checking if we're sat on the object.

The main challenge as I see it would be defining what constitutes abandonment. Someone in their private parcel probably doesn't want you to drive on their lawn, let alone park there, but a mall might want you to be able to walk pretty far from your car and spend a long time shopping before the vehicle is considered abandoned. Admittedly, this part I am not sure about. Perhaps it needs to be a land owner setting. What that looks like, I'm not sure.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

 It's not like RL where you probably aren't going to abandon your brand new super-yacht or performance vehicle and never come back. 

4 minutes ago, Gabriele Graves said:

I think your proposal would be fraught with issues detecting what it means to leave vehicle if you are not longer sitting on it, maybe even be quite expensive to perform.

Abandonment - That's the key thing I'm trying to define here - When should a vehicle really be considered abandoned?

I think most posters with a negative outlook think the current system is reasonable, because the only way to detect and define abandonment that is known to them is whether or not the agent is sitting on the object.

We can do better - And it doesn't need to be expensive or negatively effect region owners. We just need to carefully define abandonment, and how the overall system would work.

 

 

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

21 minutes ago, Theresa Tennyson said:

Once you stand from a vehicle it stops being a vehicle and becomes an object on the land. Just as I think it's unreasonable for landowners to take extreme measures against vehicle entry, I think it would be unreasonable for a vehicle owner to request special status for their parked vehicle.

So do you think the issue that holds us back here is the way the simulator treats personal vehicles? Eg. Because the vehicle counts towards LI, it places an unfair burden on land owners.

What if we could control what counts towards LI? or have a budget for personal vehicles?

Imagine that we can change anything about how the underlying SL system works, what would you change to make it work better, for everybody?

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

Just now, Gabriele Graves said:

I don't think there is anything to be fixed here.  Land owners have choices they can exercise to provide parking without auto-return if they want and vehicle owners have a choice they can exercise to keep their vehicles rezzed assuming it's allowed.  All in all just like most SL things, it's not perfect but it's a reasonable middle ground.

Most of the land that llVehicles typically traverse over is not held by land owners, but rather on public roads and waterways held by LL themselves. Do you think it's a 'reasonable' experience to be unable to stand on a boat in the sea? Unable to park at the side of the road and go into a shop?

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

7 hours ago, Midnoot said:

Give a grace period before de-rezzing items. 5-10 minutes.

6 hours ago, Arielle Popstar said:

Ok how about a 10 minute auto return?

I mean, we do already have timed auto-return, but the timer starts when your vehicle enters the sim, and can be set as low as 1 minute by the parcel owner. If you park up a lot of the time you are already past the timer and that is why the vehicle instantly disappears.

Personally, I am not really a fan of relying on timers, because a timer does not really represent if the vehicle is abandoned or not. I think it shouldn't matter if I'm standing on my boat, or sitting on my boat, I'm still here attending my boat - To me it does not make sense to return it, until I actually abandon it.

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

3 hours ago, diamond Marchant said:

so get an alt and seat the alt on your giant mega yacht, then you will be able to stand and walk around your giant mega yacht.  understand however, that we have alt monitors and they expect all such alts to have beautiful mesh bodies, a full price mesh head, with beautiful clothes, hair, makeup and breast physics.... gotta keep up appearances

It's certainly possible for a resident to do that today, but don't you think as a status quo, this design kind of sucks?

Do you think in a well designed virtual world, it should be necessary for a resident to have an alt to chauffeur them around?

[Let them stand up: Fixing vehicle auto-return]

6 hours ago, Zalificent Corvinus said:

You sit on your self replicating griefer prim, you edit it past the "no object entry" restriction because "vehicles with seated avatars" are exempt from that, then you stand up and push the "start griefing" button, and your many many many self replicating griefer prims do not get auto returned because you are "on the same parcel".

You clearly did not read my post.