Loving Clarity

actually, the one pam posted still shows as general to me. I can view it without logging in and at the top it says General. ab Vanmoer wrote: Pam and Loving, You are looking at the listings after they had been moderated: Dragonlady Boa wrote: actually, that has to been the FASTEST i have seen things change in the MP. ALL of the items I flagged have been changed now, and 3 have been outright REMOVED completly! I am seriously flabberghasted! I can assure you there was nothing PG or even mature about the listing entitled "eat it" or one or two of the others that are no longer visible. In fact,the correct category for those listings should really be pornography and not adult. Actually this example indicates a serious shortcoming in the way that LL have implemented the rating system. By using the catch all term "Adult" to encompass everything from partial nudity to hardcore pornography, LL have completely ignored the large sector of the adult population who are not adverse to nudity yet are not interested or uncomfortable with viewing explicit sex.

Pamela Galli wrote: How about this one: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/male-in-bed/1242787 Noooo, nothing showing at all! The MP just needs to be off limits to teens, as it has in the past. according to the guidelines it's pg. His genitals are covered. He's not performing a sexual act (could just be scratching or adjusting). Technically it's PG even though I know most 16 y/o's parents probably wouldn't want them to have it. it's just a flaw in the system. The guidelines are too damn vague.

Dragonlady Boa wrote: "See this store: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/stores/22601 (finded searching "ass")" I think my hand fell off flagging items from this store! And BLATANT sex acts under general? OMG what an idiot! I only went to page 4. But technically, according to LL's guidelines, I only saw one item that was improperly flagged. There was one where I saw a nipple. The rest aren't animations. They're just images. The way the new guidelines are worded, photorealistic nudity (FEMALE nipples or genetalia) have to be marked adult. But as all the photorealistic ones I saw covered the bits and pieces, they're ok. And even the one I saw that clearly showed a nipple https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/FALLEN-ANGEL-COLOR/1242786 was a drawing or painting with according to the guidelines isn't photorealistic and therefore, can be assumed to be acceptable as "general". Even the one I saw of a Dom/sub situation https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/tied-ass/1242820 , they're both clothed. No bits showing. He's not actively performing a sexual act on her... it's stupid, I know... but I could see someone making an argument that these are general within the guidelines given to us. *rolls eyes*https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines Just another example of how the guidelines are too vague and misleading. Edit: now watch these posts get censored cause we gave links to items that are sexual in nature on the forums even though LL has labeled them "general". Back to the same old issue.. we can't even openly discuss maturity issues without violating the PG nature of the forums and many inworld groups.

Rya Nitely wrote: What annoys me most is that the merchants who own these items most likely put them in the right category - Mature. And then LL came along and waved their stupid magic filter wand over everything thus exposing pornography to people who do not want to see it. I don't want to see it. There would be many prudish people who don't and might even be shocked. You know, just because you are over 18 doesn't mean you won't be offended by female private parts being shoved into your face. How rude What I don't understand is why they downgraded items from mature to general. The filter should only have been used to upgrade from general to moderate or adult. Why would you downgrade a rating that a merchant decided to place on an item? Just stupid. yeah. I had that issue. Some of my mature items got moved to general. I didn't notice it till I'd already spent days trying to fix my stuff and figure out what was going to happen with Gor/Gorean (cause an unanimated wood stove kitchen is just SOOOOOOOOOO naughty!) These were at the bottom of my list and I know they were mature before the switchover cause they have a big female part staring people in the face. But now they're general and frankly, I'm too fed up to sit here and fix LL's mistakes for them. I had to fix my stuff when they decided to drop keywords from SLX. I had to fix them again during migration when they decided to add them back, lose my pictures, add a "features" tab, give us related items. Frankly, I'm just done. My sales have tanked again (something I didn't think was possible after the initial drop I saw when they "reindexed" MP shortly before/after it went live). My eyes are almost bleeding from sitting here going through my listings one by one trying to sort out what's ok and what's not. Whether it's worth keeping Gorean for ease of search or dropping it for visibility... I'm exhausted and annoyed. And if LL is bent on 1) taking the liability onto their shoulders by keeping this filter and 2) continuing to tinker with it so we have no way to know if a change we make today to fix a listing will cause a problem tomorrow; then I don't see any need to waste even more of my time cleaning up after them.

Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Calm, focused groups tend to paddle downstream, which is much easier on the arms and it gets you someplace quicker. Question is, is SL a stream that's actually headed somewhere or just a whirlpool sucking us all down with it? lol

oh! and Brooke, at some point could the OH minutes be linked to this page in some way? you click the link that says "past transcripts can be found "here"" and neither the january or february OH are listed lol http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours#Commerce_Team_Office_Hours In fact, other than searching the blogs, I wouldn't know how to find your office hours via the wiki.

ah! I misunderstood. I thought that was to be in addition to they standard style open invitation meetings. I didn't realize it was a replacement.

Will there be another OH this week? if so, could we get some sort of update about the time/place/agenda? I try to post this info the the SLCM inworld group but can't if it's not announced somewhere. lol

Lasher Oh wrote: Rene the full transcript warts and all was posted on the thread Today's Office Hour - oops I mean user group meeting! Anyone got a transcript? but now I see the transcript post itself has been removed. I'm pretty sure it would not have taken down by the original poster. Expect to see a sanitised version apear soon once it's been cleaned up by the lawyers. ^L^ sad to say, but you're right. The version Brooke posted has at least one comment edited out if not more(granted, it was a pretty vile comment). I was just joking in SL Commerce group the other day that technically we can't even discuss half the maturity rating specifics because LL deems them moderate or adult but the group is PG. lol. this has all just escallated to absurdity.

bee Baroque wrote: transcript has been posted here: https://blogs.secondlife.com/message/602437#602437 (the meeting was a mess) Thanks for posting. As of yet, I haven't seen any official post from Brooke for the minutes. As for it being a mess, I fully agree. I knew it was a heated topic but I really thought people might settle in and see what was to be said. I understand Brooke's approach in trying to have an agenda. But I do understand the perspective of those who feel like if she's just going to sit there and post updates, she could do it on the blogs/forums. Hopefully when this issue dies down a little, things will calm down and people will behave a little better. I was really embarassed by the way some behaved. Almost TPed out at one point like several others did. I guess maybe I got a lot of my whining and aggrevation out on these threads so when it came time for the meeting, I was ready to just hear what LL had to say without being so angry. I do wish there was some sort of inworld place where merchants could go to vent about this type of stuff, argue, yell, debate, bounce ideas and then drop off the product of those discussions somewhere for Brooke to respond to. I know everyone thinks these forums are widely used but honestly, I see a lot of the same people always involved in the same conversations (that's not to say others don't just read without commenting) but I feel like SL isnt' a forum. it's a virtual world and there should be some way to go on record INWORLD about these issues and still receive the updates and responses Brooke is so kind to post here. Oh well, can't have it all lol.

Catherine Ashmoot wrote: Hi Brooke, Please, remove keywords "Gor, Gorean and kajira" from the blacklist. A lot of Furnitures and Clothes from Gor are not necessarily Moderate or Adults. I have a lot of them who are simply chairs, tables, desks... And clothes for Free Women and Free Men. That clothes don't show nothing in the body. They are the less adult clothes i ever seen... I am very worried, because for more than a week, my sales in the Marketplace are almost zero. Sorry my bad english. Posted by Brooke in the Jira 3583: Note that Gorean content will continue to be Moderate, but now will be seen by default by anyone 18 or over. For those who would like the official response on Gorean and similar communities, here it is: Linden Lab is continually striving to balance policies with safety and the overall user experiences of the residents. The recent Marketplace Maturity Ratings changes have been put into place to prevent those residents who are under 18 years of age from viewing content that is geared toward those residents who are over 18 years of age while offering greater control to the users who are over 18 years of age to decide the types of content they wish to see and be exposed to. The various communities within Second Life are a very valuable part of the user experience, but some communities and products have been identified as being specifically targeted to those users who are over 18 years of age and are considered Moderate Content. This change allows residents who are over 18 years of age to still freely see products targeted at those communities while limiting or preventing users who are under 18 years of age from seeing those items. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heaven forbid I market a non animated medieval style kitchen to both teens AND goreans.

Catherine Ashmoot wrote: Hi Brooke, Please, remove keywords "Gor, Gorean and kajira" from the blacklist. A lot of Furnitures and Clothes from Gor are not necessarily Moderate or Adults. I have a lot of them who are simply chairs, tables, desks... And clothes for Free Women and Free Men. That clothes don't show nothing in the body. They are the less adult clothes i ever seen... I am very worried, because for more than a week, my sales in the Marketplace are almost zero. Sorry my bad english. at today's Office Hours, it was made clear that anything Gorean was considered Moderate by LL and that would remain the way it is.

What is PIOF? Seen it around a time or two and NO idea what it means (I'm sooooooo behind on abbreviations!)... thanks to anyone who answers

Rya Nitely wrote: Loving Clarity wrote: She's making an effort. But if she is restricted to 9-5 on weekdays, there will ALWAYS be some poor office guy in PST who will never be able to attend. Just as there will always be some poor european merchant who can't ever make it. It's just the nature of the game. Can't please everyone always. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm just saying I don't think it's likely that her office hours are EVER going to extend to the point they're accessible to everyone. My partner and I live in Australia. We have attended every single office hour right from the very first one. Pink did hold them outside normal office hours to accommodate for international merchants. So making long speeches about why it can't be done is invalid. It was done before and it can be done again. did you READ my post? I said directly in the post "I'm not saying it can't happen". Geeze. Take a valium.

Toysoldier.Thor wrote: PS..... DONT USE VOICE IN THE MEETING!!! It makes the transcripts utterly useless for us that cant attend. I FULLY agree. This has been debated many times. At Jack's meetings and briefly at Brooke's. I was THERE and still missed things cause my dog jumped up on me or my hubby walked in and asked something. And with voice, it's not as if I can scroll up to see what I missed. As inconvenient as it might be for Brooke or any other Linden, voice just isn't a good format for something meant to reach so many people and something with such vital information. Not to mention that her transcriptions were vague highlights of the detail she was speaking in volumes in voice. It also opens up to interperetation and misquotation as people don't have logs or transcripts to go back and read what was actually said. Even if Brooke were to pre-type the highlights so she could just copy paste those and then type on the spot to respond to questions, it would make things easier on her and more clear to everyone else. But, it was her first OH and at the end she did mention it might just be in text this next time as trying to talk and type was more difficult than anticipated. Let's hope she's learned and will take a new approach.

*pinches her fingers together* a LITTLE snarky... but no worries. Rereading mine, I wasn't very clear what I meant by that bit so we both goofed. Anyhow, I look forward to office hours whenever they may be and I do have the liberty to be online whenever it suits me. So if those 3am meetings do ever happen, I'll be there! while I sympathize with those like Toy who can't attend cause they have a job, I also envy them as my own circumstances at this time prevent me from getting one. I'd rather miss out on a LL meeting if it means I've got a steady paycheck rolling in

Brooke, are these to be held at the same location as last time?

Darrius Gothly wrote: Loving Clarity wrote: Plus, let's keep in mind, LL is an AMERICAN business. Brooke is probably required (just guessing) to hold her OH on the clock which would most likely be during business hours in PST. So it would have to be sometime between 9am and 4pm SLT. So regardless of what time best suits Brooke, she might never be able to hold them past a certain time even if that's best for accomodating more users. Being an American, I've worked for American companies my entire life (or American divisions of International companies). I've often been awake at 4am, 6am, 10pm or any other odd hour on the 24 hour clock attending to the needs of my customers. I also worked weekends, holidays, my personal celebratory days and even found ways to work when the entire town was shut down due to weather concerns. (After a hurricane took out power for a week, I rigged up a generator to a laptop and finished the last phase of a software release ... because it had to get done.) Now maybe I'm an idiot for taking such measures to ensure my customers were happy, but I've worked with lots and lots of people that felt the same way too. So I'm not sure which American company you worked for or that you have in mind, but it sure isn't one that has provided my paychecks in the past. PS: I believe a careful student will notice that some of Brooke's posts on these forums have been well after 4pm SLT. Granted, they did take the weekend off, but not everyone is as insane as me. *grin* Frist off, my emphasis on American was to point out that I have no doubt there will always be some group of european or australian or asian users who are never accomodated by Brooke's hours unless she's willing to go above and beyond and be on at 4am, 3am...something I've not seen much of from LL. Second, the fact that they released this plague then took the weekend off, says to me they do NOT have the same work ethic that you do so in my mind, it makes that point moot altogether. Finally, I'm not saying Brooke NEVER works past 5pm. I'm just saying office hours are a production. It's not just about showing up, it's about prepping for the meeting, having it, summing it up, posting the logs, dealing with all the IMs and NCs she gets afterwards. It's much longer than just one hour to Brooke, I'm sure. Not to say she's never worked off the clock or that she doesn't pull late nights. I was just saying that if LL is like most companies out there these days, they don't want anyone working one second longer than their 40 hours..unless they're a salaried employee (I don't know which brooke is and it's none of my business). But I could see a certain liability for her holding an "official" meeting off the clock. And as such, I don't see how office hours will ever extend into the realm of "middle of the night". Maybe I'm wrong and Brooke is far more dedicated than any of us realize. My point was just that she is governed by the US shift STANDARDS (no, I'm not implying they're set in stone. Many of us have worked odd shifts at jobs) and as such, I just think there are always going to be certain users who are never going to be able to attend her office hours. She's making an effort. But if she is restricted to 9-5 on weekdays, there will ALWAYS be some poor office guy in PST who will never be able to attend. Just as there will always be some poor european merchant who can't ever make it. It's just the nature of the game. Can't please everyone always. I'm not saying it can't happen. I'm just saying I don't think it's likely that her office hours are EVER going to extend to the point they're accessible to everyone.

B00tsy.Compton wrote: Big clean up of stale listings. Auto disable listings that have not been sold for over 6 months (seasonal listings excluded). Include a reactivation fee. Auto deactivation of listings from merchants that do not login to SLM at least once a month. Encourage more merchant commitment. I only have one objection to this and that's to auto disable after six months of no sales. I've objected to this before... not sure if it was you or someone else who posted it. But with search currently borked, I don't think delisting items that don't sell is the proper way to go. I have items that used to fly on SLX that haven't moved since the switchover. I can't get them seen, hell, I can't find them myself! So until search is made more effective, I don't see what good it will do to punish those merchants who are just having issues getting those items stuck in the black hole of middle ratings. I do think deactivating products by merchants who never log in is a great idea, though. It should have been done during migration. What a fantastic time it would have been to note when the user last logged into SLX and if it was past a certain time, just don't migrate their items. All too often people purchase items only to find out the creator has "left SL" and they won't be getting an ounce of customer support. It's a shame some people would operate a business like that but it does happen. Regardless, SOMETHING needs to be done as search is borked and the current method of using quantity of sales to reflect an item's relevance is not only asinine, but it's gaming freebies to the top.

Rachel, I fully agree that right now the most pressing issue is Maturity Rating. My post was not to imply that wasn't the forefront of topics. But brooke's OP stated that was to be covered and asked for additional topics. While I fully agree that the ratings are most vital to be discussed, it is also the newest in a VERY long list of things that need to be addressed concerning MP. Once this maturity thing "blows over" (which won't really happen unless they block teens from MP or remove them from the adult grid. yeah right. lol) I'd like for things to be on the minds of the MP team going forward. I'd like them to have some idea (and feedback) about what the merchants are looking forward to/expecting/were promised. So that as one thing winds down, there's an agenda for what to move on to. And moreso, that we, the merchants are aware of what things are on the list and where they fall. With so much in need of repair, some things will happen soon (by LL's standards) and some may be years off. But I think it would go a long way if the merchants were aware of what improvements we can expect soon vs. which ones are months if not over a year from even being touched. But hey, I'm just one voice of many. Maybe everyone else just wants them focused on one issue, keeping us in the dark about future plans and timetables.

ah

Ciaran Laval wrote: Loving Clarity wrote: The "user group" is Brooke's new name for Office Hours. The link is below. She's posted the date and time and asked about any topics that should be discussed. No it's not, Brooke is fully entitled to hold meeting how she sees fit and so far, it looks good, but secret meetings where you ask if it's ok to publish logs are not open office hours. I'm not against this process, we'll see how it pans out, but an office hour it is not. yes, it is... see my post just above this one.

Pamela Galli wrote: That was not an OH, it was a quick focus group in prep for the real OH, which will be entirely about Maturity, on Thurs. She is now better prepared for the Thurs. meeting than if she had not taken the initiative to have some questions answered beforehand. no, I'm talking about the thread marked "user group 2/3" http://blogs.secondlife.com/thread/58707 It's confusing as it seems she has renamed her OH "user groups" or she just mistyped and meant to call it office hours and user groups ARE the other little meetings she's spoken of. Quoted from that post "In order to try accomodating different schedules, I'm having this week's user group (formerly called office hours) at 9am PST on Thursday, 2/3."

Yes. Brooke has made it confusing... Perhaps you could clarify, Brooke. You speak of "User Groups" which, at first, I thought were meant to be the smaller focus groups you spoke about at last week's OH. But then you go on to post the thread in roundtable about what I presume is to be this week's OH (since it seems to be open invite) but you call it a "User Group". Are you using these synonymously? Was this a mistype? Or are you implying there will be User Group meetings (renamed OH) and then more focused User Group meetings by the same name?

Medhue Simoni wrote: So, I guess I'm saying that we need to be brought into the whole process much earlier.I second this. Too many times we're told such and such is being implimented in a few days, weeks, months... things that affect a vast majority of people and we have no clue it's coming! Then we're told there were "focus groups" to discuss it or there was a thread buried god knows where in the forums. Whatever happened to discussing these things INWORLD? Why aren't there LL announcements INWORLD? Why isn't there a bi-weekly OH type thing where someone from LL covers the big projects and then afterwards those spearheading the projects discussed have a OH to take feedback? I don't understand why Mesh, which yes it's an improvment and will make SL all the more interesting, has been so widely publicized, so widely shared with the public but something like the teens merging didn't seem to go public till after it was decided. This MP filter wasn't discussed before it was implimented.... it gives off the very real impression that LL tries to hide those things they know are bad or unpopular ideas and spring them on us when it's too late for feedback to be helpful. People are FLOCKING to set up stores in alternative grids. LL's behavior in the past year has been brutal on the economy and merchant faith in LL. While I applaud your attempts to communicate, Brooke... I can't help but agree that these things need to come to light much sooner than they have been.