DanielRavenNest Noe

Blue Mars, for one, wins no fan here since they can't even be bothered to make a Mac version. Talk about short sighted. Can't be bothered is a mis-characterization of the situation. They did not have enough funding to write a graphics engine from scratch, so they licensed an existing one. That engine runs on the DirectX 9 and 10 API. Mac owners who bother to install that API visit Blue Mars just fine. Whats more restrictive than operating system, is the fact that 95% of computers on the planet, and 100% of portables like smart phones and tablets dont have fast enough graphics to run Blue Mars. When the AMD Fusion Render server is ready, not only will any PC with a web browser be able to access Blue Mars, but also those other devices. They will need a fast internet connection and ability to play a video stream, but not a heavy duty graphics card. @Ciaran - you are correct, but the educational/game mod versions are fine for learning the software, and making items for personal use. And there are great tutorial resources available. If you intend to sell things, then either use an unrestricted program like Blender, or buy a used copy of the commercial software. Even if it's a few versions out of date, it's probably plenty good enough for making SL items,and older copies are typically way cheaper. @Melita again - vertex is just a corner. Connect two vertexes to make an edge. Several edges make a polygon. A bunch of polygons make a mesh. Look at the default SL cube. It has 8 vertexes, 12 edges, 6 polygons (squares), and one mesh (the cube). Each vertex has a position in XYZ, just like SL prims as a whole have positions in a region. Change the XYZ values for a vertex, and you change the shape of the mesh. It's not as daunting as you might think, because everyone in SL who builds already uses a 3D editor, just a very simple one.

"Nobody needs complexity in creation." The editing tools for mesh will be just as simple or complex in the SL viewer as in an outside program. Selecting a polygon or a vertex and moving it will be the same no what software you use to do it, so will UV mapping. Builders doing things *within* SL will likely need more skills than with third party programs, because the built in tools will likely be more limited. That's true in any field of endeavor, the better your tools are, the easier it is to do something. Lets take for example making a circular vase. With a "lathe" modifier, it is trivially easy. Just lay out the flat profile shape, then apply the lathe function to make it round in 3D. Without that function it is terribly complex, starting with a cylinder and then adjusting the radii at each height. What I think will really happen once mesh arrives (and it's coming, no matter how much you gnash your teeth Ms Neva), is that designers who never considered Second Life before will start to. They will bring their exisiting skills here, and make Second Life a more attractive place. Designers already in Second Life will find they have more places to use their creations, since they will be in a standard format. That's better for everyone.

Ad Hominem replies (Latin for on the person), ie attacking the person, is what people resort to when you don't have valid discussion points. It's a distraction to hide tha fact you have nothing to say. Tools are what let you make a finished item. The more tools you have, the more options you have to make things. When Second Life first got started, we did not have animation import. When that was added, the range if items that could be made expanded dramatically. So too with flexible prims, new LSL functions, megaprims (accidental, but they are now used by many), sculpts, and now mesh and html on a prim. The choice of what tools to build into the Viewer has to be made on a rational basis. There is the size and complexity of the Viewer software vs limited Linden programmer staff *and knowledge*, and the load on servers. For example, animation editing in-world might put an undue strain on the server as you work on things (I don't know if it would, but you have to edit the file somehow and save the new version). As long as what in-world editing features are added that make sense, and there are free 3rd party tools to do external creation, nobody is shut out except those who will not make the effort to learn.

On training, I can only speak to 3dsMax, which is what I use: For anyone who is not aware, Autodesk has a free student/teacher version of their software with a three year license: http://students.autodesk.com/ By the time the license runs out, you should be able to get a used copy of the same software for not much. So that takes care of the cost part. For training, they have extensive online tutorials, and built in help, even before you start going to buying a book or video course to learn how to use it. For the SL specific steps, we will need a few wiki pages to cover the things that are peculiar to us. Having done such a page for Blue Mars: http://dev.bluemars.com/wiki/index.php/3ds_Max_Basic_Tutorial I can say that there needs to be two things covered: How to set up your 3D software and make the model so it will work here, and then how to export it and bring it into SL. Do that for each of half a dozen popular 3D programs, and you will have covered things. Linden Lab does not need to reproduce basic "how to use this software" tutorials for 3D programs, there are TONS of them around. They just need to point to some good ones, and provide specific steps unique to SL. On your previous comment about mesh closed beta testers, how about people like me who started learning mesh a year ago for Blue Mars? How about graphics designers with 10-15 years experience with some of these programs? How about alts? By the time we can upload mesh items for real, I will have a couple of hundred items done for Blue Mars, and if the requirements are not too different, they can also be brought to SL. Do you want to lock me out too?

How are those "building widget sales" coming along in Blue Mars, Daniel? Prims in Blue Mars are like...a fish needs a bicycle lol. Quite fine actually. 617 items in my billing history so far (ie transaction history in SL). I cashed out enough at the end of August to cover the set up fee and first month's hosting (tier) for my two Blue Mars cities. Thats from selling clothes, and renting land and shop space. It's actually better than I expected given that Blue Mars is still not done with the basic software. I *give away* my prims and textures pack, and it has been downloaded 194 times so far. So despite your scoffing, someone, a lot of someones, apparently want it. I also give away a set of avatar skin templates, which have been downloaded 245 times. The items I give away are to help new people get started over there, as are the wiki pages I have written. You don't get it that you need basic shapes (ie prims) to adapt a prefab house to the terrain, by adding steps or walkways? Or you need a simple sign? It's useful to have a kit of those in my inventory to grab when I need them. Another use is to do layout on a larger area. Lets say I want to put in a fountain in a park. By setting a prim in the desired space, I can figure out the scale before I start using 3dsMax to make the detailed model. I made a set of measuring grids for that reason too, similar to the ones found in builder kits in SL. In re: your last question, my understanding is imported meshes cannot be edited any more than sculpts can. I personally would like to see an "edit vertex" button added to the SL Edit window. This would allow you to move individual points on a mesh to reshape it. Coupled with a set of starter meshes in the Library, and the inevitable free ones that people will make, that will allow people to make their own items in world, or make mods to items to make them fit better. Moving vertexes should be a simple enough programming challenge for the Linden staff, since we can already move single prims within a linked set. The fancier stuff like redoing the UV mapping is best left to specialized 3D programs, but we should at least be able to do the equivalnt of "prim torture" that we can do now on standard prims.

Google Sketchup 7 is 47.4MB installed on my PC. And you persist in ignoring that there are a multitude of free and low cost 3D programs. Blender is not the only free one, and 3dsMax is not the only high end one.

That might be too much to ask at first. My suggestion is to just provide a way to edit vertex positions on an already existing shape. That should be easy to program - it just changes the XYZ values for a given vertex. And anyone who has done anything with prims should understand the use of the XYZ colored arrows to move a vertex. It will become just another small addition to the edit window, a buton to edit vertexes, and then the selection and position entry uses the same parts of the edit interface it currently uses for whole prims. Perhaps later they can add more features, but you can do a whole lot if you have some starter shapes and can then modify them in world in real time.

Why do you say mesh's are highly complicated ... they are not. Neither is their production. They are in fact easier than sculpties. Dante, Prokofy appears to live in her own little world of us vs them conspiracy theories. Either that or being a land baron, she's upset by the prospect of more efficient building using mesh. That would lead to less need for prim count, and therefore less income. The reality for me has been I self-taught myself both 3ds Max and Photoshop, and learned a lot more about advanced materials (normal and specular maps etc) and how graphics engines work. The 3D modeling part, ie making the shapes, was the easiest part, because I already knew how to use prims from SL. You start with prims in most 3D programs, and then reshape them in various ways to get what you want. This was entirely familiar. In fact, for Blue Mars, which is the reason I started learning this stuff, I made a set of prims, because they are just plain useful for certain parts of a project. There will always be a need for basic shapes. I would not be at all averse to having a simple in-world mesh tool. Moving vertexes to reshape an object is simple conceptually if you are used to moving prims around, and the change to the file that makes up the mesh is simply changing the XYZ values for that point. I don't think it would make sense to try and implement the vast range of tools available in high end 3D programs, any more than you want to integrate all of Photoshop, but once you have a base mesh (like a cylinder) already imported, then making changes to it should be something anyone can learn. LL could provide some starter meshes in the inventory Library, and people will make freebie kits with more of them, so that people can experiment and learn.

Sorry, it looked legit to me since it has a US address and 800 number listed. Please consider Autodesk Softimage Mod Tool 7.5 then. Free download direct from Autodesk: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/item?siteID=123112&id=13571257

It was predictable that Linden Lab would choose an import format that was widely supported. That meant either COLLADA .dae (what they chose), or possibly OBJ format. If you look at the programs that support the latter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obj its pretty much the same list as support COLLADA files. Both are open file formats. COLLADA is actually an XML schema, meaning it is a human readable text file. I tried Google SketchUp, then chose 3dsMax cause I liked how it worked better, but both have multiple export options. The thing is, learning *any* 3D program makes it easier to learn another, once you understand the principles behind it. And one thing to remember is every builder in SL has used a simple 3D program, the one in the Edit window. Even a high end program like 3ds Max still starts with prims, and uses the three colored arrows to move things around. You just have lots more ways to torture prims then the SL tools have.

Because mesh import is another tool in the toolbox to use. In-world mesh creation would be yet another tool. It would be nice if we had that too, but I don't expect it, since things like UV unwrapping are complex to program, and the SL viewer is unstable enough as it is without adding more to it. And I hope you are serious about money not being a problem. I did the math on some fashion boots I made for Blue Mars, and from what I can tell it would cost 58 prims to upload to SL, and therefore about two US dollars on upload fees. Multiply by the thousands of items you are threatening to gift us with, and that's some serious total in fees.

For that matter you can get an older version of 3ds Max from an authorized reseller starting at $140: http://www.crystal-downloads.com/shop/byvendor/20/ That's for download only, with no support, but its also 96% cheaper than the full Autodesk list price. Even the latest version is 90% off when ordered this way.

I have to agree with Ann's point here; this will be a boon for those in SL who have the skill set (and the finances) to work with 3DS, Maya or the free (but complex) Blender. Current builders who've been honing their skills for years using the in-world tools will either have to get up to speed on this very high-end software or eventually fall to the wayside. OMG, I'm on the same side of an argument as Prok... *shudders*...but in this case she does have valid concerns about the creation of a new "elite class", many of whom will have no connection with the SL community. There are plenty of other programs out there with COLLADA support besides the ones you mentioned. You can find a list here: http://www.collada.org/mediawiki/index.php/Portal:Products_directory In the free and simple category is Google SketchUp. In the free and high end is Autdesk Softimage Mod Tool. In the not quite ready category is Blender 2.54 beta, which is a major redesign of the interface, hopefully easier to learn. The fact that there are tons of professional artists using Photoshop has not prevented a flourishing textures industry in SL. The same will be true of 3D models. SL is a small market with specific technical requirements to import here. Most professionals will ignore it. Talented amateurs will pick up the slack. One thing that has not been mentioned is 3D modeling is a marketable skill outside of SL. Creating sculpts and prim builds has no use outside of SL. Content creators who hone their skills here can go out and make money elsewhere.

You left out: Oh, and by the way, all those Linden Dollars you residents still hold are now worth two thirds of a million US$ less than before.

Your PC specs are in the recommended range for SL, so that is not the problem, unless you have lots of other programs running at the same time. SL tends to be a resource hog, so check how much of your total memory is being used up after a few minutes. Two hardware things to check are the running temp on your graphics card and CPU, and the graphics driver version. Even if the components are fast enough, if they have too much dust on them, or airflow is blocked, they can overheat and stop working. Some ATI drivers are known to cause problems also. A software related issue is your cache. Second life stores some information locally, so you dont have to download it again. This cache can become corrupted. There is a place in the edit menu > preferences to clear the cache. A more drastic option is to entirely un-install second life, and reinstall it from scratch.