Paladin Pinion
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Posts posted by Paladin Pinion
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I hardly know where to start, so this will be my last response. You're a lot like Sesame Street's Tulley -- you imagine all sorts of dire things and get very upset about events that have not yet occurred and which may never happen. That's beyond my ability to address, so I'll just make a couple of comments and then leave you to imagine some kind of projected hell.
Toy: The fact that you actually agree that LL is still in development on a function that supposed has passed thru development and even closed Beta is a major factor / indicator that this rollout to production is going to be another example of LL Development bugs and terribly planned deployment. My prduction - We Merchants are going to be suffering from this LL deployment in the new year even moreso than the suffering we all felt and many are still feeling from LL's disgusting Sept change fiasco. I dont know what IT / software development background you have Paladin, but I do have lots.
I'm a software developer who runs a software company which produces custom software solutions for business and education. The normal, proven software development cycle goes like this:
- Initial development
- In-house testing
- Closed beta testing to a selected group of qualified testers
- Open beta testing with a wider out-of-house group
- Final public release
In between each step is a sub-cycle of revisions, changes, sometimes backtracking, and re-testing. Only when revisions pass through complete testing on one level does the software test process proceed to the next level. Any substantial changes to interface or coding require the cycle to begin over again.
This is exactly what is happening here, which is why I say that LL is doing due diligence. Initial development was followed by a closed group of testers under NDA. Because this is an early stage it is likely it took many revisions to polish the software to the state where it could move to stage 4. We are at stage 4 now, with a more open group of testers providing feedback. As issues are found, the cycle may need to backtrack by a full stage or more; if the issues are minor, there will only be repeated tests in the beta grid.
The fact that it took months to get to this point is not unusual. We have no idea how many revisions or re-testing stages were necessary before LL felt the existing software was suitable for a wider test group.
So Paladin, what have you been told through the back channels of LL staff about when the MagicBoxes will be retired? You seem to be confident that LL will not retire magicboxes for a long time until its safe. Come on ... tell us more. What are you so confident about regarding magicbox retirement. PS - may I ask if you were one of the DD Closed Beta Merchants?
If I was, I would be under NDA and couldn't say. But no, I was not. My comments were based simply on knowledge of how software development works, and a basic understanding of how a business works. The one thing I consider a given is that the company will not do anything intentionally to hurt themselves; businesses always strive for the best possible outcome. Making life difficult for merchants will hurt their business, therefore if there are issues, it is not intentional. If only a few of us help test the product, then there will be undiscovered bugs. Software always has bugs, there is no such things as bug-free software. The goal in software development is to create the fewest possible bugs, and to triage known issues so that those that remain will affect the fewest possible users.
That's why I am convinced that LL will not do anything intentionally to harm themselves. Harming their own business and marketplace model is not one of their goals. It's just common sense.
TOY: Where did you get information that it will be SO EASY AND SIMPLE - "as easy as that". You just admited and LL openly stated that they have NOT worked out how the transition process from Magicbox to DD will work. Please explain how this automated process will be able to flip out the content in my magicbox and go into all my MP listings and automagically change my pointers from magicbox to DD?That's not what I said. I said it would be as easy as moving my boxed inventory to a folder. I do keep copies of my original marketplace items in my inventory; I do not trust an object on a sim to remain undeleted or intact, that seems very risky. So for me, all I need to do is drag my existing inventory items from one folder into another. LL stated in their response that for boxed items, that is all we'll need to do.
If you are asking about the automatic linking of existing listings with outbox folders, I know exactly as much as I've been told in the response on this forum. LL says it will happen, they are working on the implementation, and when it is ready they will explain it. I have no reason to think that isn't true. Again, it is good business sense for them to make life as easy as possible for their customers.
I didn't expect an automatic link-up, and I think that's a really nice touch. Thoughtful, even.
TOY: NOPE I will not be participating in this OPEN BETA. First of all... like most SL Merchants, this is the first I ever heard of this beta grid/MO environment.
That's a little surprising to me, but I'm a scripter so maybe that's the difference, because a lot of scripters and builders use the beta grid for their own testing. The beta grid has been around since before I joined over 4 years ago. It is a separate grid, unrelated to the "real" one, which gives you money to use for testing and lots of space to work on new scripts, builds, and other things without any upload fees or real-grid repercussions.
The links in the FAQ will tell you how to sign on there. Anyone can use the beta grid, it is open to all. Note that it is a separate place, and things you upload or create there cannot be transfered to the main grid. It is a testing venue only.
The beta grid is by no means new, and many areas are always well-populated. If you read the status reports on your dashboard, you will see references to the beta grid and what is currently being tested at any given time over there.
Its becoming clear which merchants were in the Closed Beta... its the ones that are posting in this thread that this beta grid is old news and easy to get into and makes total sense.
Sorry, no. I've been using the beta grid for 4 years. To get there you only need to toggle a preference that allows you to choose which grid to log into. At least, that's how I do it in the LL viewer. The last time I used Phoenix, I believe the grid list was always visible. The name of the beta grid is Aditi. Just choose it from the list and log in normally.
That's it for me then. I can't imagine how much energy you put into jousting with windmills, but my own approach is to see if LL is following accepted software development procedures (they are,) to report anything I find wrong using the proper channels (JIRA), and to help make things better if I notice something awry.
Proper and professional reporting does help. I received a personal thank you about a year ago from one of the Lindens simply for submitting a detailed, professional bug report through proper channels. On the two occasions I've done that, I have found they do listen, they do want to improve, and they do want to make their customers happy.
If I were them, I'd be very discouraged by the hatred that gets spewed at them on these forums. I'd want to stop reading it, and focus my attention only on the official database where the real bug reports are handled. It is to their credit that they are willing to plow through this drek to address the issues that are important. I suppose you don't use JIRA either though.
Those of us who work in the biz know where to report and how to get results.
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Darrius Gothly wrote:If anything can help LL roll out the Direct Delivery feature with the most success possible, good documentation and support is it. They jus' gotta 'splain it lotz better!
Totally agree. A product I use daily for development has recently started using their developers' notes to update the documentation and now it is entirely geek-speak. Even those of us who sort of know what they're trying to say can't always figure out the docs. The jargon is just too thick.What's needed is a geek interpreter. Torley used to do that really well. I hope they let him do that again, he was a natural. -
TOY: only if you use the LL Viewer. This feature does not work on any other viewers from what I read. The other viewer makers need to adopt the new API for DD. Do you know any that have?
It won't take long for third party viewers to catch up. Every new implementation over the years has been adopted by the major players. You know that, so this is a red herring. By the time this method is final I can promise your viewer will support it. If you don't believe that, you could ask the authors of whichever viewer you are using.
TOY: It also was not clear how the items actuall interface with the listings in MP. LL didnt say it was automagically... they said they are still working on this and will provide details. Right now the process to link your current content to the current listing by means of DD is a manual process as Darrius described.
That's why it isn't a released feature yet. It is still in development, which takes time, and requires testing so that the developers can figure out the most efficient way to proceed. Since you aren't willing to help with that process, and you don't want to bother with the beta grid, it shouldn't affect you at all. When the final procedure is in place you will get the benefits without any effort on your part. If you aren't helping to test, you will never need to bother going to SLM and changing your listings. LL has stated the behavior is the final goal, and it will be done for you by the time it is ready. You can sit back and wait.
TOY: You said you read the FAQ but the FAQ didnt say that exactly. They said that there will be a cutoff of Magicboxes eventually as they are retired in stages.
True. But that will be far enough off that for all reasonable interpretations, it is currently indefinite. LL has no current deadline. I suppose if you want to fret about something, you can worry about it. Since the final implementation isn't due for release until Q1, your magic box is safe for at least another four to six months or so. And after that, if there are still issues to be worked out (ANS is a concern for me) then the boxes will have to remain even longer.I am shocked Paladin... honestly, did you really have that many delivery failures as a merchant of MP? How many a month? If you are like me and it was only a couple a month, would it really be worth all this hassle of transition to solve a few failures a month?
I dont see this as much of a hassle at all, to be honest, especially after the LL clarifications. I will be able to drag-drop my product boxes into an outbox folder and that will be the end of it. I won't even need to manually create enclosing folders. Tthe reason for deliveriy problems is the interaction between the magic boxes and the LL servers. I'm not sure why you are so opposed to a solution that will solve these issues. Even a single failure is one too many; zero failures is the only correct answer.I think if you revise your paradigm it would help. If you stop thinking of the folder as a storage location and start thinking of it like an email outbox, the analogy lines up better. When you send an email, it disappears unless you save a copy of it locally. The email is removed from your drive and sent to a remote recipient. Same here; your item is removed from the outbox and received at the other end by the marketplace. It will function almost exactly like email, with the (eventual) added advantage of automatically updating your listing on the marketplace. I think that sounds quite elegant.
I still hope you will actually try it on the beta grid so that you understand the functionality. And please keep in mind that development is not yet complete, and that this is still an ongoing process. That's why it hasn't been released for general use yet. If there are problems or changes that need to be made, this is exactly the right time to do it. LL wants us to find problems -- that's why we are invited to help. There is no reason for them not to want to make the experience as easy and efficient as possible. Things will undoubtedly change as the new method is revised and improved. That's what testing is all about.
Darius' story is a good one. If LL finds the limitations are unproductive, they will have to change them. There is no reason for them to intentionally make things behave badly for us. It hurts their business and their bottom line. Happy merchants and a full marketplace are good for both us and them. They have every reason to want to make this succeed.
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Josh Susanto wrote:I would, nonetheless, like an explicit confirmation of what the real limit of listed items per user account will be.Also, what if I prefer to just keep usig magic box technology?
I think LL's response here was pretty good, it clarified a lot for me. There is no limit to the number of items you may sell.
Each item you sell can have up to 200 objects in its folder. You can divide those into subfolders if you want, but regardless of subfolders, no more than 200 objects per listing. Any of those objects can be a box of a zillion other objects, so in reality there is no limit.
If you do want to use subfolders, no more than 20 subfolders per item listing.
If you want to use sub-sub folders, you can't nest them more than 4 levels deep.
Regardless of how many nestings, subfolders, etc. you use, the total number of folders all together cannot exceed 20.
That's per listing. There is no limit to the number of items you may list in the marketplace.
I'm very pleased about the automatic folder creation for already-boxed items. That means all I have to do is drag my master copies into the out box and I'm done -- especially if LL can finish up the automatic marketplace linking. That'd be a nice touch. Then I wouldn't even have to change my existing listings, they'd just connect up automagically.
As for magic boxes, the FAQ says you can continue to use them and there is no cutoff deadline. In fact, the beta grid has a place to pick up a magic box customized for the beta test so that you can see how they work alongside the new system.
I really need to find some time to go and test it. I'm actually kind of jazzed about this. The delivery problems people have had should be a thing of the past when this is done.
One thing I do depend on is ANS. The FAQ says there will be a similar substitute. I'd like to see that in testing too, because I rely on it so much. I may have to keep my magic box around for my one product that needs ANS.
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Toysoldier Thor wrote:The new DD could have used these MagicBoxes (or even a new DD version of this Magicbox) that is rezzed inworld and used it as the "OUTBOX" source that would be uploaded into the MP DD system.
Couldn't you just think of this folder as a "magic box"? I'm sure you must keep master copies of your items in your inventory and you don't rely on the box to keep them, right? When an external object is an intermediary in the delivery process, you get the problems we have now. "Direct" delivery means just that: from one inventory directly to another.
Another advantage of using a folder instead of an external object is that merchants without land can sell without having to find a place to park a box. I admit it will be the end of the rent-a-box-space business, but so it goes.
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Cara Ametza wrote:They are shoving this down our throats and with the poor communication and lack of good beta testing first it isn't a good idea.
Actually, this is a beta test, so they are doing due diligence. If we want it to work, we should participate on Aditi and find the bugs. It's likely that trying it out will also answer some of the questions we all have.
As I understand it, it won't be too hard for existing merchants because all our items are already boxed in our Magic Boxes. We already have just one item per listing. So to start, it sounds like all we need to do is:
- Make a folder named for the item
- Drop our already-boxed item into it.
- Drag the folder into the Merchant Outbox
- Change our market listing to point to the new delivery method
It's a little extra work to create the extra folder, but I don't think the rest of it is too bad. None of us have non-boxed items for sale right now, so essentially we're just dropping in content we already have without any changes.
Later, if we decide we want to sell folders of stuff instead of boxes of stuff, most of us can just unbox our item and drop the contents into the named folder. For most of us, the restrictions still won't apply. If you do have hundreds or thousands of things in a single boxed sale item, just leave it in the box as you do now; that way you still only have one item in the folder. Or divvy it up into up to 200 categorized boxes if you want.
I do want to know how to accomplish updates. I'm guessing we just re-send an identically-named folder and it will replace the old one. But I'd like verification of that.
My gut tells me that LL's explanation is worse than the actual practice. I think they need a tech writer.
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Oh gosh. I just got an IM from him. He DID mute himself. Well, he was an interesting person so I guess it wasn't a total waste of 3 hours. I'm trying to decide whether to laugh or cry.
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I don't think muting could be it. He created the plywood box himself, and it was named "object". The object he received as my customer was named "Mote Particle Generator". Also, he does see the script when it talks in chat; the only thing he doesn't get is the URL dialog asking if he wants to open his browser. We both have SL set up to open an external browser.
The original URL was to my web site. The test URL is to Google.
So yeah, different URLs, different object names. It's a real puzzler.
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This is the oddest thing. I have a script in an object given to customers that has worked flawlessly for 3 years. All it does is call llLoadURL when the object is clicked.Today a customer said nothing happens when he clicks on it. What followed was a 3-hour testing session and we could not resolve the problem. Here is our test script:
default { state_entry() { llSay(0, "Script starting"); } touch_start(integer total_number) { llLoadURL(llDetectedKey(0),"Click to test.","http://www.google.com"); } }When I create an object and put the script in, he sees the dialog asking if he wants to visit google. When I click it, I see the same thing.
When HE creates the object and puts the script in it, he sees "script starting" and when he clicks, nothing happens. If I click his object, I do see the dialog. I tried passing him a full-perm script, and also the script in a notecard so that he could make his own script. It didn't matter.
We went round and round for hours. The script always works for me. The script never works for him if he owns the object. It does work if he does not own the object.
He cleared cache, and relogged with 3 different viewers (Firestorm, Phoenix, Viewer 2) with the same results.
He relogged as his alt. When the alt creates an object containing the script, it works for the alt, works for his main, and works for me.
There must be some pref, or setting, or attachment, or something that is blocking the dialog for his main. Does anyone have any ideas? It's the strangest thing. You'd think that anything HE creates would be operable by him at least.
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kurt7D8 Avon wrote:Aren't the dialog windows objects? There must be some way to identify them. Can you think of another way? Thanks again.
Yes, you can make a screenshot of them easily on your Mac. Do not use the SL screenshot utility. Instead, hold down Command-Shift-4 and when the cursor turns to a crosshair, drag around the area you want to save. That will place a screenshot on your desktop that includes everything within the rectangle you selected.
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Anaiya Arnold wrote:Freebie hunting can make a mess of inventories. I think some people use an alt for going around picking up and trying out freebies, but then might return with their main when it's time to actually buy something.
I do that.
I've only done a few hunts, but most of what I got was junk. But there was one place where the freebie was not something I wanted, but the entire sim was so well done and the merchandise so well-made that I did go back as my main and purchase a few things.
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Void Singer wrote:Ammo Scripts should always be LSO, and if their environment for use allows it, NOT temp on rez
Interesting, what's the drawback with temp on rez?
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What happens if you are sitting on something and a vehicle hits you? Would sitting stop that kind of attack?
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Just to balance things: My 2-year-old 15" Macbook Pro runs SL just fine at 50-70 frames per second. It's fully capable as a gaming machine, and the new ones are even faster.
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I rent on a private region, and have done for years. I like it. I have a reliable landlord who's been around forever and shows no sign of stopping. The cost for me is lower than tier, I have full control of my land, I can upsize or downsize whenever I need to adjust the number of parcels I have, and if it came down to it, I could just pull up stakes and leave without any obligations.
Periodically I consider buying land, but after weighing costs and other considerations, renting always wins out.
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Innula Zenovka wrote:I find being able to use multiples of the same layer really useful when putting outfits together. I like wearing long blouses and shirts, and these never look quite right when made up from a shirt and a pants layer -- they always work better as jackets. But so do jackets, of course.
That's what I do too, and I wonder how I managed without. I can now wear long jackets over long sweaters, and I have a tank top under a vee-neck shirt, both on the shirt layer. There's a lot more flexibility now.
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Probably best not to assume all merchants want notecards. I always prefer IMs. I haven't been inworld much lately due to RL conflicts, and when a customer sends me a notecard I have to log in to read it. Sometimes that isn't possible. All my IMs are forwarded to email, and I can answer in email immediately, which is much quicker. If I need to log in, it can be hours before I get a chance.
I'd suggest sending an IM first and waiting a few hours. If you don't get a response, then try a notecard. That way you cover all bases, and if the merchant is like me, they can respond much faster to an IM.
That's just the way I do it, of course. Everyone's different.
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Winter Ventura wrote:Or you could chop up the button prims so that they display their hovertext right on the surface of the button
Just curious, what's the trick for doing that?
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Rolig Loon wrote:My biggest gripe, other than illiteracy (which is rampant everywhere), is laziness. A lot of people who post in either place don't bother to look first and figure out what other people are posting.
Illiteracy -- god yes. My pet peeve.
I don't suppose there's any way it would happen, but a great addition here would be a search-as-you-type feature the way Google does it. When a person started to type the title of thier post, a drop-down list would appear with the titles of other existing threads that covered the same or related issues. If the user selected an existing thread from the list, they'd jump to it immediately without any "do you want to save this question?" dialog.
So as soon as the words "white cloud" or "white egg" appeared in the title, off they'd go.
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TriJin Bade wrote:DMCA has been duly written and sent from our business address with copies made and sent to lawyers.In the 6 months it will take to get something done, I siggest you start your investigations. It pretty obvious they are stealing content and getting profits from other peoples hard work.
My DMCA was addressed and acted on in four days. The infringing content was removed, as well as the account(s). That was last November.
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I'd go for the Pro if you can. For SL you really do need the extra processing power, and in general the graphics card is better. Get as much RAM as you can, that makes a big difference too.
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Ditto, I got it too. I may save it, it's my very first PMS -- er, PM Spam.
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The review doesn't even say which release of Lion was tested. I know a few developers who tried to run another software product on a pre-GM release and literally everything crashed. In fact, a particular version of Lion made one person's hard drive completely unbootable.
I'd want more info before I made any decisions.
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Darrius Gothly wrote:RL or SL, there is no protection for any idea unless you go the full legal route and are prepared to defend it in the courts.
Actually, there is no protection of ideas at all. You can only copyright your particular implementation of an idea, but you can't copyright the idea itself. The courts come in when someone copies your particular implementation. If ideas were copyrightable, we'd only have one brand of car and one brand of toilet tissue.
Which actually might make life a little easier when shopping.
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Direct Delivery questions
in Merchants
Posted
I was not in the closed beta program, the Lindens give me no special assistance, and I am no different than you are. I'm pretty sure they don't even know my name -- the person who wrote me that email last year is no longer with the company.
I'm just a user who doesn't happen to hate SL and who doesn't get a kick from bashing it. I think what they have produced here is amazing, and knowing how software works (especially in today's economy,) I understand some of the hurdles they've had to overcome.
I have no particular association with LL in any way.