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Sylvia Wasp

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About Sylvia Wasp

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  1. Yes, except for the fact that most people don't actually use their legacy names (sadly). The idea behind this scanner is that if you're in a room full of avatars and looking at the labels above their heads, what the scanner should return is what those labels say, so that the user can correlate the label on the button with the persons they see in front of them.
  2. thanks for this detail Wulfie. 🙂 Overall, though I don't see this as a problem, especially when the alternative is severely truncated names. The scanner is mostly for use at dances, shopping malls, etc. and let's face it, most avatars won't be using characters that cause any problems. The majority of avatars just use regular names in the language symbols of their home country in standard fonts available on most modern computers. Only a small sub-set of avatars will use "weird/interesting" characters from other languages and font sets (for the "cool" factor 🙂 ), and an even smaller subset of those will use characters that might cause a problem with the scanner. In testing, it seems that llBase64ToString deals with those rare cases very well. All the names I've seen on the buttons are clear and easily recognisable as the folks standing around me when I'm scanning.
  3. thanks Chic, I was worried that was the answer, but thanks anyway Seems to happen way more often with TGA's too for what it's worth.
  4. I've seen this happen on and off over the years and never heard of a good explanation, so here goes ... Basically, pictures (textures) that I've uploaded into inventory, (especially those I use in my profile), just randomly sometimes show up as blurred. They never resolve into an image. I've tried rebooting, changing graphics settings and all the typical things, but it isn't that. I have a good computer, I run on mostly Max settings etc. It's as if the server is just storing a low-res version and has dispensed with the actual file. This is NOT a transient problem. Once a texture gets blurred out, there seems no fixing for it. It never "comes back." I can download this textures out of SL and they show up as blurred on my desktop. It seems SL is just randomly scr*wing up my textures and no one seems to know why or how or what to do about it.
  5. Thanks KT. This is what I suspected (if I understand what you're saying here). That it might be possible to screen out the errant characters before they cause problems and hopefully, (again if I understand what you're saying), without having to cut the names down to un-recogniseable stubs of only 6 characters in length. The whole deal in what I'm trying to achieve is a bank of buttons with avatars names on them. If they aren't identifiable as the avatars standing around the user, then there isn't much point.
  6. Cool. Thanks a lot Molly. This is exactly what I need.
  7. Okay, so I wrote this script (with help from this very forum!) that lists out all the avatars in a sim and puts their names on a button dialogue. That may not seem useful but it's just a part of a bigger project. There are two problems with the script (if anyone wants to help out). 1) I clearly don't know what I'm doing with the listens, lol. every time I try to fix them so they are both created and deleted properly, I get "doubles" on the buttons, (every avatar name appears twice) so I've had to comment out most of it which is kind of bad practice (listens must be dealt with). 2) If there is some douchebag avatar in the sim with some fancy ass name with symbols and stuff in it, I get a script error something like, "buttons should only have so many characters dumbass," even though I've got code in here to stop that exact thing (see below). for (i = 0; i < number_of_keys; ++i) { thisKey = llList2Key(keys,i); if (thisKey != llGetOwner()) { detected_list += [ llRound(llVecDist(currentPos, llList2Vector(llGetObjectDetails(thisKey,[OBJECT_POS]),0))), llGetSubString(llGetDisplayName(thisKey), 0, 11), thisKey ]; } Only the names with the weird symbols in them sets off the error, so I'm thinking that somehow the Trademark symbol or the Copyright symbol or whatever stupid emoji it is, is functioning like an escape character or something? It rarely happens, and it only happens when some 8 foot tall toxic male with a ridiculous long name is in the sim, so it's probably just a single individual character that's doing it. Maybe it's being done on purpose? In any case, if anyone know if there is a way to limit the Unicode set, or identify the errant character and then check for it, or take it out before this happens I'd appreciate it. the entire script (so far) follows: integer cmdChannel; integer gMenuPos; integer gListen; list detected_list; list avatar_list; integer Key2Chan(key ID) { return 0x80000000 | (integer)("0x"+(string)ID); } multipage_dialogue() // replaces regular dialogue, deals with more pages { integer lastPage; list buttons; integer listLength = llGetListLength(avatar_list); if(gMenuPos >= 9) { buttons += " <----"; if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else if (listLength > gMenuPos+9) { if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else { lastPage = TRUE; } if (listLength > 0) { integer b_count; integer num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); for(b_count = gMenuPos + num_of_buttons + lastPage - 1 ; (num_of_buttons < 12) && (b_count < listLength); ++b_count) { buttons = buttons + [llList2String(avatar_list,b_count)]; num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); } } // gListen = llListen(cmdChannel,"","",""); llSetTimerEvent(10.0); llDialog(llGetOwner()," \n",buttons,cmdChannel); } default { state_entry() { cmdChannel = Key2Chan(llGetOwner()); llListen(cmdChannel, "", llGetOwner(), ""); } touch_start(integer total_number) { llListenRemove(gListen); llSetTimerEvent(0.0); gMenuPos = 0; avatar_list = ["SCAN", "Reset", "Done"]; detected_list = []; multipage_dialogue(); } listen( integer channel, string name, key id, string message ) { if( message == "SCAN" ){ avatar_list = []; llOwnerSay( "scanning for avatars within 96m ..." ); key thisKey; vector currentPos = llGetPos(); list keys = llGetAgentList(AGENT_LIST_REGION, []); integer number_of_keys = llGetListLength(keys); integer i; for (i = 0; i < number_of_keys; ++i) { thisKey = llList2Key(keys,i); if (thisKey != llGetOwner()) { detected_list += [ llRound(llVecDist(currentPos, llList2Vector(llGetObjectDetails(thisKey,[OBJECT_POS]),0))), llGetSubString(llGetDisplayName(thisKey), 0, 11), thisKey ]; } } detected_list = llListSort(detected_list, 3, FALSE); avatar_list = llList2ListStrided(llDeleteSubList(detected_list, 0, 0), 0, -1, 3); if (llGetListLength(avatar_list) < 1) { llSleep(1.0); llOwnerSay( "Sorry ... no other avatars found in this simulator"); return; } else multipage_dialogue(); } else if ( message == "Reset") { llResetScript(); } else if ( message == "Done") { // llListenRemove(gListen); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"---->")) { gMenuPos += 10; multipage_dialogue(); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"<----")) { gMenuPos -= 10; multipage_dialogue (); } else { llOwnerSay(message); // the (named) button you pressed llOwnerSay((string) llList2String(detected_list, (llListFindList(detected_list,[message]) + 1))); // that avatar's key multipage_dialogue (); } } timer() { llSetTimerEvent(0.0); // llListenRemove(gListen); } } thanks, Sylvia Wasp
  8. Well, the "SCAN" button is always presented in the first dialogue box from the touch event, but previously the structure has been that the avatar list is appended to that, so that even when the buttons are populated with names, one of them is always "SCAN." This gives the user the option of (re)SCAN-ing to refresh the list. While this was easy at first, now that I'm using strided lists and a bunch of (to me) super-complicated and counter-intuitive functions to grab/slice/sort various parts of said strided list, the addition of non-strided data just made things super confusing so I left it out of this version. In this version, after the initial SCAN button is presented and clicked, it's replaced by the avatar name buttons. I would like to include it again, and possibly a "Done" and a "Reset" mostly for the same reasons you mention yourself about user interactions. I'll probably figure out a way to do it eventually. I think I need to read up on ordering/formatting the button layout but that's also super-confusing too, so I guess I've been avoiding dealing with it. This is funny because the very last thing I did before I posted this code was to remove a detected_list = [ ]; from the code at the top of the SCAN section of the listen because it was stopping the whole script from working. It made detected_list unavailable to the last part of the listen where I use it to get the avatar key, which is the whole point of the script. The avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; in the touch event functions (sort of) as a clearing of that list in that it replaces whatever might have been in there before. Should I also have detected_list = [ ]; there for the same reason? As I said, if I put it in the listen, where avatar_list = [ ]; is, it breaks the whole script. And since both lists are declared at the top ... why should I need to put it in the touch event anyway? Is putting avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; and detected_list = [ ]; at the top with the other variables the same thing as putting it in the touch event? Do I have to do both? Is one better than the other? In short, I'm still confused as to where exactly to put things, or whether I've put them in the right place, since LSL doesn't seem to check for duplicate variable names or anything to do with context. I call detected_list at the top, but if I call it again within a loop of a listen, then it's treated like a completely different, second list but with the same name?? WTF? And the compiler produces no errors to inform you of your mistake?? Insanity! (lol) Where to call things, and which parts of the script those things will ultimately be available too, or "seen by," has to be the most confusing and screwed up part of the whole LSL scripting language. I'm not super experienced as I noted, but it seems highly irregular to me relative to other scripting languages I've used. I don't really expect you to answer these questions. I'm just trying to convey how confusing and nonsensical all this is to the novice scripter. ok </rant> over, lol Sylvia
  9. Okay, I honestly thought this thread was over, lol ... but I can't seem to put this thing down. So, I quickly rewrote the script using llGetAgentList and it works but I'd like some feedback because my solution feels a bit "messy" to me. I have some stuff in the touch event that may not really belong there? May not be necessary even? I didn't end up restricting it by distance as during my testing it was fast and smooth and the number of avatars doesn't seem to affect things at all (I imagine this is because it's a single call to the server for a list instead of a cumbersome scan/calculation?) not sure. What it's missing is: - a "re-scan" button (every time I add extra buttons beyond the avatar list into the mix, things seem to screw up) - a timer to disappear the dialogue box if nothing it touched for a while (or a reset button?) Anyway, here it is. Detects all avatars in a sim, creates a strided list (distance, display name, key) and sorts by distance. Presents the user with a multi-page dialogue filled with buttons with the avatars names on them. Pressing one of the named buttons gives you the name and key of that avatar (so you can do stuff). I also (I think) added in the handler for "no avatars found" (re: Qie's comment on the earlier script). It all seems to work, but please ... tell me what's wrong with it. // ====== Sylvia's Avatar Detect v3 ====== integer cmdChannel; integer gMenuPos; integer gListen; list detected_list; list avatar_list; integer Key2Chan(key ID) { return 0x80000000 | (integer)("0x"+(string)ID); } multipage_dialogue() { integer lastPage; list buttons; integer listLength = llGetListLength(avatar_list); if(gMenuPos >= 9) { buttons += " <----"; if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else if (listLength > gMenuPos+9) { if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else { lastPage = TRUE; } if (listLength > 0) { integer b_count; integer num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); for(b_count = gMenuPos + num_of_buttons + lastPage - 1 ; (num_of_buttons < 12) && (b_count < listLength); ++b_count) { buttons = buttons + [llList2String(avatar_list,b_count)]; num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); } } gListen = llListen(cmdChannel,"","",""); llSetTimerEvent(10.0); llDialog(llGetOwner()," \n",buttons,cmdChannel); } default { state_entry() { cmdChannel = Key2Chan(llGetOwner()); llListen(cmdChannel, "", llGetOwner(), ""); } touch_start(integer total_number) { llListenRemove(gListen); llSetTimerEvent(0.0); gMenuPos = 0; avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; multipage_dialogue(); } listen( integer channel, string name, key id, string message ) { if( message == "SCAN" ){ avatar_list = []; llOwnerSay( "scanning for avatars within 96m ..." ); key thisKey; vector currentPos = llGetPos(); list keys = llGetAgentList(AGENT_LIST_REGION, []); integer number_of_keys = llGetListLength(keys); integer i; for (i = 0; i < number_of_keys; ++i) { thisKey = llList2Key(keys,i); if (thisKey != llGetOwner()) { detected_list += [ llRound(llVecDist(currentPos, llList2Vector(llGetObjectDetails(thisKey,[OBJECT_POS]),0))), llGetSubString(llGetDisplayName(thisKey), 0, 11), thisKey ]; } } detected_list = llListSort(detected_list, 3, FALSE); avatar_list = llList2ListStrided(llDeleteSubList(detected_list, 0, 0), 0, -1, 3); if (llGetListLength(avatar_list) < 1) { return; // probably needs to give a message about "no avatars found" here } else multipage_dialogue(); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"---->")) { gMenuPos += 10; multipage_dialogue(); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"<----")) { gMenuPos -= 10; multipage_dialogue (); } else { llOwnerSay(message); // the (named) button you pressed llOwnerSay((string) llList2String(detected_list, (llListFindList(detected_list,[message]) + 1))); // the key! multipage_dialogue (); } } timer() { llSetTimerEvent(0.0); llListenRemove(gListen); } }
  10. A lot of the earlier work (even though I don't understand it) seemed much more creative to me. I was once given a machine by Xylor Baysklef, made out of prims itself, that used scripts to rez rods and balls and panels that then self assembled into giant geodesic spheres in the air. It was a beautiful, elegant and intuitive design and a wonder just to watch it do it's work. It was made long before mesh and most of the scripting possibilities that exist today.
  11. Cool. I wish there were another way around the 16 avatar limit than getting a list of every avatar in a sim though which may be very long and unwieldy for my purposes, but it’s something I’ll have to try. The original idea was for a HUD that would be used in a busy store or a dance floor situation. Basically scanning the avatars around you, that you can see. Collecting the whole sim means collecting avatars in other contexts doing other things that the user can neither see nor in many cases is even aware of, which may be confusing for them besides being a possible invasion of privacy. Only collecting 16 avatars seems far too few and trying to collect the whole sim seems like overkill. 30 or so would be perfect, but if those are the only choices then I will have to pick one or the other. Perhaps I can collect the whole sim, then sort by distance and mask out those avatars clearly out of range of the present location/context of the user. It will be interesting to try. I might also try the numbered buttons thing after all as it (foolishly) didn’t occur to to me that there would be a text based ‘key’ to the numbered buttons as you describe above. My frustration with numbered buttons was more because blank numbered buttons don’t convey anything to the user, as in my example of a piece of furniture that just presents the user with buttons labelled 1-12 for poses. Thanks again for all the help. Sylvia
  12. Very interesting. A part of the reason I hate code is that I find it difficult to get that clear conception in my head. When I'm painting a picture, or making something out of prims, or using a design/paint program I *begin* with a definite, clear, "vision" if you will of exactly what it looks like when it's finished then I just keep working until the reality matches the vision. With code on the other hand I usually feel like I'm crawling across a bumpy floor in complete darkness looking for "stuff" and only about half-way through (if I'm lucky) do I get a clear vision of what it is I should be doing or working towards. In any case, due to the help that I've received here, I've managed to correct all the stupid errors (I think) and had a long talk with Grandmother about what it is I'm doing. She said ... that what I want in the end is avatar keys, and what I want for the dialogue box is avatar names and I want them associated together. So what I really want is a database. The closest thing to a database in SL is the strided list, so I spent a day reading up on strided lists and re-wrote the thing from that perspective and with (most) stupid errors removed. It's not that different but at least it finally works OK and could be said to be "finished" in terms of my original question at the top of the thread. It scans the area for avatars, produces a nice button list of their names, and clicking on a button gives you their name and their key so you can "do stuff" with it. There are some things I'd like to make it work better though. 1) I had no idea that sensor was limited to 16 avatars! Is there any way around that at all? 2) It sometimes errors out saying that I have a button with more than 24 characters (when obviously I don't). So far this has only happened in a Linden Hub where the crowd is mostly griefers, racists, paedophiles, & Trump supporters, so I'm thinking it's either LAG or shenanigans of some kind. 2b) if it's LAG, is there any way to assure that bits of the script don't execute in the wrong order or that every part of it waits properly before continuing in a high lag environment? 2c) if it's shenanigans, that suggests that a player can "do something" to their display name to screw up my code. Is that really possible? Edit: Just realised that the avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; at the beginning of the sensor is probably unnecessary or should be blank. // ====== Sylvia's Avatar Detect v2 ====== integer cmdChannel; integer gMenuPos; integer gListen; float sensor_range = 96.0; list detected_list; list avatar_list; integer Key2Chan(key ID) { return 0x80000000 | (integer)("0x"+(string)ID); } multipage_dialogue() { integer lastPage; list buttons; integer listLength = llGetListLength(avatar_list); if(gMenuPos >= 9) { buttons += " <----"; if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else if (listLength > gMenuPos+9) { if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else { lastPage = TRUE; } if (listLength > 0) { integer b_count; integer num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); for(b_count = gMenuPos + num_of_buttons + lastPage - 1 ; (num_of_buttons < 12) && (b_count < listLength); ++b_count) { buttons = buttons + [llList2String(avatar_list,b_count)]; num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); } } gListen = llListen(cmdChannel,"","",""); llSetTimerEvent(10.0); llDialog(llGetOwner()," \n",buttons,cmdChannel); } default { state_entry() { cmdChannel = Key2Chan(llGetOwner()); llListen(cmdChannel, "", llGetOwner(), ""); } touch_start(integer total_number) { avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; multipage_dialogue(); llListenRemove(gListen); gMenuPos = 0; } sensor( integer number_detected ) { avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; detected_list = []; integer i; for( i = 0; i < number_detected; i++ ){ if( llDetectedKey( i ) != llGetOwner() ){ string detected_name = llGetSubString(llGetDisplayName(llDetectedKey( i )), 0, 11); key detected_key = llDetectedKey( i); detected_list += detected_name; detected_list += detected_key; } } avatar_list = llList2ListStrided(detected_list, 0, -1, 2); multipage_dialogue(); } listen( integer channel, string name, key id, string message ) { llListenRemove(gListen); llSetTimerEvent(0.0); if( message == "SCAN" ){ llOwnerSay( "scanning for avatars within 96m ..." ); llSensor("", NULL_KEY, AGENT, sensor_range, PI); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"---->")) { gMenuPos += 10; multipage_dialogue(); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"<----")) { gMenuPos -= 10; multipage_dialogue (); } else { llOwnerSay(message); llOwnerSay((string) llList2String(detected_list, (llListFindList(detected_list,[message]) + 1))); multipage_dialogue (); } } timer() { llSetTimerEvent(0.0); llListenRemove(gListen); } }
  13. Thanks for chiming in Rolig, I realise that these questions must be both a bit on the easy/boring side, as well as one's you've been asked many times before. In my searching for answers I found evidence of you helping out in the past on scripts very similar to mine (several times!). I realised my mistake about calling llDialog instead of the multipage routine right after I posted last time, so that's fixed already. The reason I am using llDIalog on the first touch, and then the multi-page routine later, is that I think what I want to do works best as a Menu/subMenu combination. The first menu (llDialog) presents the user with an announcement of what's going to happen and presents the "SCAN" button ... then the results of the scan are (necessarily) dropped into the multipage menu system, which handles the data. I'm not sure if it's correct, but that was the logic behind the choice. The trouble is that these two calls to Dialogue boxes are now fighting with each other. I press the "SCAN" button on the first dialogue box and it sometimes replaces with a blank box with an "OK" button for a moment, before then being replaced by the multipage dialogue box with the correct data. Because the whole scanning and invoking of the multipage dialogue box takes a while, I made it work by putting in the llSLeep command, but then what is displayed is the last (old) data from the previous scan (in multipage format), before a moment later being replaced by the new, correct, scan data. Either one creates a horrible user interaction and llSleep is definitely a kludge I don't want to use anyway. Sadly, I've also lost confidence that I even have the right approach for the task at hand. I realised that I probably need the avatars keys to do anything worthwhile with the named buttons at the end and I don't think you can find an avatars key with just the first 12 characters of their display names. I can collect the keys instead, but then I need a whole other routine (in the listen?) to parse that data into display names before dumping them in the dialogue? Or I need to collect two lists in the sensor (keys and names) and then associate them in a data structure with strided lists or something? Ack! The whole thing is a mess really, lol. the relevant code section: touch_start(integer total_number) { llDialog(llDetectedKey(0),"\n~Press SCAN for a list of avatars~\n", ["SCAN"],cmdChannel); llListenRemove(gListen); gMenuPos = 0; } sensor( integer number_detected ) { avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; integer i; for( i = 0; i < number_detected; i++ ){ if( llDetectedKey( i ) != llGetOwner() ){ string detected_name = llGetDisplayName(llDetectedKey( i )); avatar_list += llGetSubString(detected_name, 0, 11); } } llSleep(2.0); multipage_dialogue(); }
  14. Okay, so ... here is the code where I combined the multi-page button dialogue into what I already had as well as taking KT's simplification notes into account. I renamed a lot of stuff and formatted it so it's clearer because I'm a super visual person (thus why I suck at code), and I simply can't even read it unless I do that. It (sorta) works? Obviously there is a problem with the touch_start event in that I'm calling my original dialogue box and then calling the multi-page dialogue box function right after. If I comment out one or the other then it doesn't work at all, but the way it is currently, if I'm quick with hitting the SCAN button, then eventually it works fine and I get a multi-page dialogue with the correct forward and backward arrows and all the names of the avatars correctly formatted etc. So I'm 90% of the way there? I mean it's working ... but with problems, lol. I'm thinking that what I want is a first page menu where I invoke the scan and then the multipage dialogue thingie is a *sub menu of that? But I'm not sure how to do that either, lol. Anyway, here is what I have now for anyone still interested and thanks for all the help so far: Sylvia // Sylvia's avatar scan code (combined) // integer cmdChannel; integer gMenuPos; integer gListen; float sensor_range = 96.0; list avatar_list; integer Key2Chan(key ID) { return 0x80000000 | (integer)("0x"+(string)ID); } dialogue_box() { integer lastPage; list buttons; integer listLength = llGetListLength(avatar_list); if(gMenuPos >= 9) { buttons += " <----"; if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else if (listLength > gMenuPos+9) { if((listLength - gMenuPos) > 11) { buttons += " ---->"; } else { lastPage = TRUE; } } else { lastPage = TRUE; } if (listLength > 0) { integer b_count; integer num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); for(b_count = gMenuPos + num_of_buttons + lastPage - 1 ; (num_of_buttons < 12) && (b_count < listLength); ++b_count) { buttons = buttons + [llList2String(avatar_list,b_count)]; num_of_buttons = llGetListLength(buttons); } } gListen = llListen(cmdChannel,"","",""); llSetTimerEvent(10.0); llDialog(llGetOwner()," \n",buttons,cmdChannel); } default { state_entry() { cmdChannel = Key2Chan(llGetOwner()); llListen(cmdChannel, "", llGetOwner(), ""); } touch_start(integer total_number) { llDialog(llDetectedKey(0),"\n~AVATAR LIST~\n", ["SCAN"],cmdChannel); llListenRemove(gListen); gMenuPos = 0; dialogue_box(); } sensor( integer number_detected ) { avatar_list = ["SCAN"]; integer i; for( i = 0; i < number_detected; i++ ){ if( llDetectedKey( i ) != llGetOwner() ){ string detected_name = llGetDisplayName(llDetectedKey( i )); avatar_list += llGetSubString(detected_name, 0, 11); } } llDialog(llGetOwner(), "\n avatars found ...", avatar_list, cmdChannel); } listen( integer channel, string name, key id, string message ) { llListenRemove(gListen); llSetTimerEvent(0.0); if( message == "SCAN" ){ llOwnerSay( "scanning for avatars within 96m ..." ); llSensor("", NULL_KEY, AGENT, sensor_range, PI); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"---->")) { gMenuPos += 10; dialogue_box(); } else if (~llSubStringIndex(message,"<----")) { gMenuPos -= 10; dialogue_box (); } else { llOwnerSay(message); } } timer() { llSetTimerEvent(0.0); llListenRemove(gListen); } }
  15. thanks KT, all great suggestions I feel like a dummy for not seeing that easier list reset. So obvious once you see it, lol. I base most of my decisions on finding some example elsewhere, so lots of times it works, but is inappropriate to the setting or overly complicated. Sylvia
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