[Multi LOD workflow for Blender + Substance Painter?]

Hello,

I use a 3D software using procedures to create a true model, so I can focus only on design, then I choice the platform and the exporter will make the job, by job I mean create triangles, create LoD or not depends the platform targeted, create the uvmap. Sometime I use Blender, Cinema4D to check the result.

Of course, it is not so easy, but for plenty of tasks that works nicely, of course that needs a lot of time before make the first model, to be honest, but at the end, a lot of time is spared to designers.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

28 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Learn the basic of creation first, THEN start selling their stuff instead of immediately aiming at the quick buck, flooding the market wirh crap. So clear, but again your lack of understanding skills makes it hard, obviously

Whay YOU say is not true, because if someone wishes (creator or customer) a million polygons item because detailed geometry is better than reasonable poly with maps and all bells and whistles, THEY are WRONG and you too, no matter what. If the customer is interested in getting a FIAT Panda with an engine og 450 HP it doesn't make it a legitimate reason for producing such a flying coffin. For EVERYBODY'S safety. 

You seem to think I am not agree with you on major points, I don't know why as I read almost peoples here agreed franckly about LoD improvement, and to bring helps for beginners.

I agree with you about learn then start selling, but it is often the case, I am optimistic as it is the case. Now what solution you purpose to avoid the "flooding the market wirh crap" ? Honestly, I can't see any good and fair solution, except trust to customers to make the right choice with time and patience.

I am yet optimistic about customers are reasonable and not ask Panda Abarth with 450hp oops, they almost did it with Fiat 500, but not yet with 450hp ok ( I joke, don't jump on this. I owned a lot of Italian cars. I am fan.))

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

55 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Again, you lack context comprehension. Why beginners don't learn the basics first? That's the topic, and neglecting the basics we end up with the excuse you do by assigning tags that differentiate between "designers" and "professionals", with the implication that being designers makes them no expert and therefore excused and somehow exempt from basic practices, excuse and exemption that goes on for ever because they are designers. 

About my maya tool, AGAIN, you're missing the context of such tool. It does a lot of processes needed to output a rigged item, and rigged only, not static, reduced using the native rediction tool but with an SL compatible skin cluster AKA rig data that doesn't cause issues when trying to upload it with the associated custom models, avoiding the manual process, long, tedious, time consuming and prone to mistakes. It basically does much more than a simple reduction and binding to skeleton, it runs two quality assurance checks and fixes in order to achieve compatibility specifically for SL. 

The more you intervene, the more you show your lack of understanding in general, and even more your capability to comprehend context of someone's interventions. Give up, you're only making a fool out of yourself publicly. 

Why beginners don't learn the basics first ?

First what ? they must learn before come on Second life ? or they can come on Second life to learn. I prefer the second. 

Other point is you push the idea there is only one good way to create on Second life, it is not true, there are many ways depends the users wish, customers wish too.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

4 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

What a lowly method to avoid answer, by editing an already answered comment after a while. Anyway, as i said already, i was asking for feedback to improve the guidelines for a tool that anyone could replicate since i was sharing the method and there was NO name reference to identify the product, therefore as opposed to what you did in the past to get your post deleted that you were complaining about time ago, that's no hidden advertisement and yours was. Face the fact that you can't recognize context and that this is the reason for your post being deleted and mine is still standing, as proved by this and the fact that your condonating practices that degrade user experience in the name of freedom is the same as griefing, with the little detail difference that a griefing device can be made on purpose or be the result of inconsiderate resource hogging. It still cause grief, regardless of the intentional or unintentional purpose. 

I can only answer if you don't make difference between beginners or low skill with griefing, it is a point of view I can't share. About your tool for maya, you know there are lot of mesh simplification tools. Good to know there is one more.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

4 hours ago, OptimoMaximo said:

First, a customer wouldn't even respond to feedback request as long as the product meets their expectations in a way or another, therefore putting both items in the same package wouldn't give you any preference data, as opposed to the other method where their wallet becomes the voting tool. 

Secondly, you show a lack of comprehension on the subject matter by saying "of course with the same materials". The low poly needs to have a material set of textures that include the highpoly extracted normal map and AO in the diffuse, and a normal map for an highpoly extracted from itself always is a flat normal map with no details, since their surface match 100%. So the materials can't be the same, inherently, whereas the highpoly can only take the base material texture tiled a few times, resukting in a high resolution texture, and the low poly needs to be 1 tile in each direction mandatory, resulting in a lower resolution. 

Please, please...learn what "context" means an see as many example of it as you possibly can before you come back posting BS of such proportions

Hello,

I saw how you answered to a Linden employee in Sansar forum, your way to answer is not something I am able to understand. And I don't share your point of view about customers. I prefer trust customers point of view, I prefer ask them what they need, and I prefer explain.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

29 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

The customer has no idea what's a lod and the claim has beem, is and will keep being 1 LI for a full sim worth of objects. At a price next to nothing too. Reality check Motoko, reality check. 

It was true, but since last year many users ask about good LoD, it is not yet thousand, but many more than before. So, I can say there is good progress.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

21 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

I agree. I would do an experiment and make 1 item in two versions, version 1 mmade right with materials to provide normal mapping and good lod set at 7 LI for 100 L$  and the second version high poly just pulled out from zbrush, textured with no materials, no lods and 1 LI at 1 L$. Extended description to explain tje difference. Which one would sell more? 

And if the price is the same, it could be interesting to see how customers react. Or better put both versions in the same set, and ask your customers what they use ? of course with same materials

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

55 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Beginners have never been the problem. I had experienced creators tell me before that they don't care because if their customers aren't paying for it, they are not going to go through the effort of doing it.

In this case, I agree with you it is not the best attitude. Of course, customer has the right to ask for low Li, but it is to the role of the  designer to explain the implications. And the designer musts be able to provide the Li / LoD ratio asked by the customer.

 

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

I prefer explain, encourage and show the right path. It seems some posts show some users want to punish more or less. It is not my way.

I repeat again, I am in favor about new mesh with new Li formula as mesh V2 , with formula inspired by animesh with the goal to encourage better LoD, but not to exclude beginners.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

6 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

Everything you do, even content and its components. Following your reasoning, anyone would be free to create sim crashing devices and all would be fine. 

I hope you can yet make the difference between a beginner skill who experiments 3D creation on Second life and griefer. I really hope.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

7 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

So even without a direct quote, you know that it is forbidden to hinder or degrade other user's experience of the platform? Because that's what you're condoning instead

You can ask to add something about LoD in the TOS, but the TOS is the code of conduct.

And maybe allow only people to build if they prove they can make perfect LoD under the criteria of the "closed LoD AD club"

Good luck.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

Code of conduct is the TOS on Second life.

 

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

Then I am sure you understand why beginners are allowed despite they risk to make more mistake than experimented drivers.

I never seen a beginner with tank on road, but I understand what you try to say. In any case, how avoid "tank" object on Second life ? there is Li formula for this, actual formula is not the best, we can agree on it, but we must live with it and create a new mesh V2 as animesh was done.  It can be quickly done, and I repeat I am sure, plenty of designers will go on it.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

You are right, it is a shared environment, as road is, with profesional taxi drivers, professional truck drivers, beginners, experimented drivers, foreign peoples, motorcycle and so one.

On side note, I never spoke about softwares I created and continue to support, despite an excellent LoD generator based on model knowledge for mesh and animesh, with full automatic rig and skeleton converter from Sansar to Second life, and more.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

21 minutes ago, OptimoMaximo said:

You keep advocating for such a freedom, but that type of freedom is what causes the tragedy of the commons. The bad practice of one for personal advantage reflects on others by damaging them who in return will apply the same method to recoop, so in the end the new bad practice is going to affect everyone, including the first individual. Other game engines are also used for product or design display, but then the scenes end up being composed of only the product/design and not really usable in the context of a realtime application that's more complex than that. So the freedom you're advocating for is something that damages the experience of the community as a whole, because of the same principle described as the tragedy of the commons. The others release at machinegun rates by neglecting the principles that drive the content creation specs of a platform that can't fancy the same rendering features other engines can, therefore being a uv specialist as you call it, is a necessary skillset. Everyone wants the baked lighting for extra details, then materials to go with that, at a distribution speed rate that such necessary practices can't really meet within a deadline. Add then the bloated lod factors as a standard suggestion/requirement, and the overall performances go down the sink. Paying the rent for your apartment doesn't give you the right to destroy it, the same goes with renting a simulator. Simulators are hosted on shared servers and even if you have no neighboring sim visible inworld, technically you have neighbors on the server that hosts your sims and boggling resources on yours has an impact on the performance of others'. You mention Vray and other render engines, but you seem to skip an important detail: over there, there is no need for a 0-1 uv range and you can tile materials as you wish without the need of static lighting maps, exactly as it happens in Unity or Unreal. The enviroment you choose has an impact on the degree of freedom you can or can not feel/be entitled to. Please refrain to post any further advocation to this kind of freedom of use, because we all as whole, you included, are suffering from the fruits of such practices and this may, although slowly, lead SL as a platform down a path of self destruction with users leaving or anyway not coming back again after their first lagfest. 

As I know, you can download Unity for free and make the 3D objects you want with Blender, for example.

User can create on Unity their own little game for personalm use with their objects, even objects with no LoD. And I don't think someone will say something about this.

Is it for personal advantages ? of course no, it is very common beginner will work in first on design, and after on technical details. I am on technical side, my main goal is to remove the technical work from designers, so they can use the time to create and not make LoD, and I can say, I have good LoD generator because my softwares know work with model description and not triangles, so the generation of 3D objects triangles and LoD are not linked to the design. So, I am very easy with LoD, contrary about what you think I think good LoD formula will help Second life but Second life musts welcome beginners about build, because plenty of users like Second life for this.

I prefer freedom than inquisition, true. I prefer users informed than obliged, I prefer creation and design than push LoD and LoD again, and again more LoD subjects as "hidden"  advertisement too.

 

 

 

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

Hello,

I think the best way to help beginners is to have a clear and easy to use formula, I modestly advice something like animesh for a new type mesh, mesh v2 or arctan mesh, with a checkbox to use the new formula,

We can imagine a formula like 1 prim = 1024 triangles in size 0 to 32 meters , add 1 prim for upper size , and for LoD the same rule as animesh, triangles 1024 / 512 / 256 / 128 in the 4 LoD. I am very sure lot of designers will use it to make better LoD because the fair and understandable formula and to promote even their skill and design. And I am sure, for the users, who take care of FpS in their Second life activities, will like it.

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

29 minutes ago, Kyrah Abattoir said:

Why do people keep bringing up this idea that detail and optimized content are at two opposite ends of a spectrum?

 

Within the constraints of what Linden Lab allows, this is still their system, we just rent it for a while.

We can see this from a lot of point of views, the fact is with the mandatory respect for TOS, a sim owner is renting a server with a large freedom to use it for a lot of purposes. During the rent, the owner is a customer who pays and so deserves the service. As it is the case actually, and really Second life is working well.

Details and optimization can go together of course, but a designer is not always an engineer or an uvmap specialist or a LoD specialist. And for some use of Second life, as make art or nice pictures , LoD is not a top priority. A lot of peoples use Second life as Bryce was used, as a "photorealistic" render engine for beginner, because Second life is versatile enough. I am not saying Second life can be compared with Bryce directly or photorealistic render engine as V-Ray, I am saying lot of users are using Second life instead of using photorealistic render engine, and for them FpS can go at 8 or even less, if the camera moves well and they see all details they want, all is good. They have this right.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

19 minutes ago, ChinRey said:

I wasn't trying to compare SL to Unity as such, only mentioned that Unity is one of the game engines that use adjustable LoD swap distances.

Beyond that I'm a bit confused about what you mean. I get the overall impression that you want to criticise the idea of adjustable LoD in SL but all your arguments are actully for it.

I said, I am in favor about better LoD management as an option to help create better objects for sims with game / role play action goals.

But as an option, not mandatory. It is why I think deeply the best way is to create a new type of mesh, let say mesh V2 or arctan mesh, as you wish with LoD management as we already have for animesh.

 

[Why beginners don't learn the basics first?]

Hello,

Second life is not Unity, Unity has one main goal, despite we can use it for more than game. Second life has infinity of possible use.

Second life is significantly more easy to use than Unity. LoD is important for game, of course, but on Second life it musts stay an option for the users who need good LoD. For this users, I agree a better LoD system is necessary to have better FpS on their sims.

But a lot of peoples on Second life use this platform as a platform as Bryce was used in the past, and so LoD is less important than details and very detailed objects, even avatars and outfits of course. Because they like to reproduce environment with lot of details. An other main point is Second life is for everybody, beginners and more experimented users. I am in favor about better LoD management as an option to help create better objects for sims with game / role play action goals, for many other use, LoD is not a top priority, very detailed objects are more important.

And I forget an other point peoples have yet the right to use their sims or lands, to create and use what they create, they pay for this.

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

5 hours ago, jimbozman said:

Hi Motoko,

I was reading this thread hoping to find answers to some of my mesh house building problems. Your mention of SketcUp caught my attention because I am a SketchUp user and then I export it a DAE for Blender to create AO and Texture maps in Blender. If you don't mind I would like to seek your advise or tips in making mesh houses in SketchUp. 

1. I have a problem in uploading the finished house in Second Life wherein the Texture maps and the AO maps doesn't show inworld when I export the house I created from SketchUp from Blender with the baked textures and AO. The house is all gray and some faces are scattered around even though I ticked the "include textures" when uploading.

2. My avatar cannot enter the house when uploaded it. It's like as if the mesh house is a solid block even though there's an opened door on it.

How can I upload a finished mesh house I created from SketchUp then exported as DAE for Blender to bake the AO and texture maps then exported as DAE to be uploaded for Second Life? Help!

Hello,

This topic will help you a lot, I guess. 

 

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

To make easier example for my attempt to explain

Let say we wish to make H2O molecule on Second life.

Model is ( draw ( molecule  'H2O ) 'plot '3d )   ok, it is done   , What ? don't tell me you use blender for this   no seriously ? you don't use Internet knowledge ? you don't use standard RDF file and SparQl language ?

Ok my 3D model is done, at least for me it is perfect. Ah and yes, it is so easy to be sure the model will tell the composer, O has not same color as H on the uvmap itself

Now, the composer, (setq myModel ( draw ( molecule  'H2O ) 'plot '3d )   ) and of course, something like (compose myModel ('realTimeEngine ( 'LOD 3 ) ) )

I decomposed a lot, but the fact to assign the model to a variable calls the composer automatically, of course. Function draw can take a lot of parameters, and of course you can ask myModel to be rendered as preview, and the nice thing it is possible to edit it by hands ! and the variable myModel will memorise all change made by hands.

And finally export it , ( export myModel ('secondLife 'LPE 'SLLODRulesName 'Dae ) )

All done   I made the demonstration at SLB, in the past, some years ago with more complex stuffs

 

 

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

I will take the risk to say, for example a cloth software with name begins by M ... and ends by R is a good example.

Ok, I know already it is the worse example for lot of peoples here, and I already opened my umbrella, but there is nice tools to create a true composer with auto rig for real time engine for this software. 

Same things for Sketchup, a clue with Sketchup is to use this software to create elements of the house, and not the all house, so you can use these elements easily under Cinema4D and even blender, yes even blender which has a nice function with grid magnet

 

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

Hello,

There are many ways to design 3D objects, but there is one almost never mentioned here, for purpose ?

I am doing it in this post.

A 3D object implies 3 steps :

1, design , a design totally disconnected of the final render engine you target, really totally disconnected. I will take examples after1. By design, I speak about the precise description of the objects, by formulae, by pure design, by program, by hands too. Or a mix of all of these.

2, how the model will composed by quad / polygon. In this step, it is important to target the render engine you choice, but with the composer musts to work even if you return on step one and change the model, no matter, the composer will generate new quad / polygon. It is where you create LOD too, and as the composer has a deep knowledge of its task and model, no need to waste time of human designers here.

3, exporter, an important step where you will explain to the software the format you wish and how to assemble or disassemble all the parts of the design to generate the format of your choice.

Examples :

Step 1, a simple model, let say a tube deformed to make a nice bottle, I will describe my tube with a formulae, it is an example, you can do it manually, by hands and mouse or Wacom .

Let write something as ( tube ( splinecurve ( x,yz) (...) (...)  ) additional parameters as nocap )  nocap to keep the hole of the bottle  

So my model is a formulae, but I can add manually on the 3D model a break point and curve by hand the upper part of the bottle as example.

An other example, a wall , I make a simple schema of a wall, almost a cube and I add by description 3 windows, by default the windows will have a standard shape, I can change it of course, and I can of course change the position of windows by formulae, by hands, randomly even for the fun.

It is how the first step musts to be done. At this step, it is pure design, and at no moment I need think about mesh composing.

Now step 2,  I will choice firstly the type of render engine, real time, half real time or photorealism sometime called "offline".

After this, I will choice many parameters, quad or not, auto adaptation, number of LOD, and so one. Of course, the composer knows the model perfectly and creates perfect LOD for my wall or tubes, because composer and designer are disconnected but composer knows the model enough. It is why the same model will use 1500 polygons or 15000 polygons or more depends the render engine I target. It is why for example, a displacement will generate polygons for photorealism engine and will generate texture for real time engine ! it is why there is checkboxes to select the render engine, and of course, why not add Second life and Sansar, as we added Infinite Sim on 2014 / 2015 largely before Sansar   And of course, I can change the model and ask to the composer new generation and change the render engine at any time.

Step 3, the exporter, it is where I will select the file format and many parameters to be sure the file will be uploaded easily and with minimal effort on the target platform.

 

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

Hello,

On the past, SL was used a lot for architect preview, it is a reality, and really we don't care the dae file is on SL platform, because there is no problem with TOS, the dae file is not the model.

Now, there is Sansar, of course, I need add CAD preview uses more and more real time render engine, or half real time engine.

[What program use to create a mesh house?]

16 hours ago, Pandora778 said:

What is your opinion in using live home 3d for creating houses for SL any thoughts please before i do spend money. Thank you I appreciate it

Hello,

Sketchup from Google is nice too, and there is somewhere too a piece of software to adapt the Obj / Dae file exported by Sketchup for Second life and Sansar.

And so, we can even use Sansar or Second life to use professional architect design and even on professional area.

Now, it is time to run away before blender clan drops on me