daisybloomer
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Posts posted by daisybloomer
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Chronalis Rexen wrote:
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“Skill Game”or“Skill Gaming”shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law.
as quoted from the policy . . .Line 1 states a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance.The outcome of a gatcha . . . is pure chance, by the policy no gatcha game legal as your outcome is wholy by chance. If at any time LL decides to get rid of gatchas they can use this policy to do so.
The definition of a Skill Game requires all 4 conditions to be met in the part you quoted. Gatchas do not both take and pay out L, so it would not fall under the new skill gaming policy.
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Sorina Garrigus wrote:If by cracking down if you mean they are cleaning up the mess they were signficantly responsible for and profited off of your right. But it is pretty clear someone cracked down on Linden Labs.I didn't misnterpreted anything. It was written by people that don't even know what the word gamble means. Additionally I never said that a semi colon is a decisive factor of how to interpet the policy. Either you are EXTREMELY confused or just trolling for fun. I said the exact opposite about semicolons how they are not words and they are not making things clear. The policy is NOT clear. It was written by someone that should not be doing writing such things. 62 pages of questions and comments clearly demonstrate thatIf you have to make BS and crap your not helping anything. I am done talking to you. Clearly you have alterior motives other than the facts, policies or reality. So good luck with the trolling just to get your naked picture in the forums
Do you ever read anything you write? If there's anyone that's trolling and having ulterior motives, it's you. Post after post after post you keep taking a whack at Linden's policies, writing abilities, and their competence at managing their products and continually attempt to create misleading gray areas that don't exist. Their policies are CLEAR and written in the appropriate legal format that they should be. As big of a company that Linden Labs is, any policies including their Terms of Service is very likely written and carefully reviewed by their legal team. Professionals who have heaps of experience and formal education dealing with legal documentation, more than you'll ever have in your lifetime. So when you say that it is not clear and that someone should not be writing such things, do you know how ridiculous you sound?
Also, keep in mind that Linden Labs is a company dealing in games for a considerable amount of time on a large scale, so I think they know and are well versed in the subject matter as much as you do (maybe even much more) or they wouldn't be in business. And as far as this thread is concerned, 62 pages of it doesn't mean the policy is flawed or poorly written. It's a discussion thread where anyone is suppose to be able to talk about it good or bad in a respectful sense. Did you think when a policy is good or well-written it would only have a 2 page discussion thread?
You may want to be a little less critical in your comments, as all of us in this thread are looking to gain knowledge on the subject matter at hand.
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Ayesha Lytton wrote:Yes, but you can have skill games - and even chance games - that don't accept L$. For example a free poker table is allowed. We know they have not allowed chance games for which you exchange L$ for tokens and vice versa. But what about a skill game that uses tokens that are NOT purchased with L$. For example you buy them on a website that is not connected to SL. It seems that LL is concerned with the usage of L$ for games. If L$ is not used at all, they shouldn't care, right? I'm asking them to answer. All the rest of us can do is speculate.
Again you said "skill game that uses tokens" so you've classified it as a skill game. And like I said before in the previous posts, those kinds of games all need to make it through the approval process with Linden, and chances it would get refused as they also have the power to prohibit it based on the general TOS even if it doesn't fall under the new gaming policy.
Also as for the idea of buying tokens or some kind of currency on an external website...that is super risky territory. By doing that you are probably putting yourself out to greater scrutiny in RL with RL laws and take on heaps more legal risk. Not worth it in my opinion, just to have a game machine in SL.
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Ayesha Lytton wrote:I'm talking about a game that is not a chance game, neither accepts nor pays L$ but accept US Dollars or some other currency added via an external website. Would that be allowed?
I don't think there is a game that would have no chance and/or skill in it. If I am thinking of all the games out there, either in SL or RL, they either have an element of skill, chance, or both in it.
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Ayesha Lytton wrote:
- Ensure that the “llTransferLindenDollars” Linden Scripting Language function will be used for all outgoing Linden Dollar transactions for each Skill Game; and
- Verify that each purchaser of its approved Skill Games has been approved by Linden Lab as an Operator through the Skill Gaming application process. Linden Lab will maintain a."
But if a game neither accepts nor pays L$ it wouldn't have this function.- Skill Gaming is not permitted in the Second Life area in which Linden Lab is the estate owner (the“Mainland”).
- It shall be a violation of this Skill Gaming Policy to create, operate, or offer Skill Games in Second Life without a License or outside an approved Skill Gaming Region, or to circumvent the prohibitions set out in Section 6."
Yes but they define a skill game as accepting and paying out L$, so any game that doesn't would not fall under the definition. See what I mean?
Yes, but you said "skill game" that pays in and out in US Dollars. And I quoted the first part about the approval, because with the new policy all skill games need to be approved by Linden and its highly unlikely that the kind of skill game with the design you are talking about would make it past the approval process. And again for the second part, you said "skill game" so it says there that you can't operate skill games outside of the Skill Gaming Regions.
Now if you end up saying it wouldn't be a skill game and pay in and out in US Dollars, then it likely would be a chance game. And in the Wagering Policy it specifically says chance games doing transactions in any currency is prohibited.
"It is a violation of this policy to wager in games in the Second Life® environment operated on Linden Lab servers if such games:
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Rely on chance or random number generation to determine a winner,
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- Rely on the outcome of real-life organized sporting events,
AND provide a payout in
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Linden Dollars (L$)
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- Any real-world currency or thing of value."
So by logic, it still would be No and No to your two-part question unfortunately.
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OhanaGaming wrote:I have spoke to the attorney general kentucky, the common wealth attorney, and even the kentucky state police head quarters on this. They have told me that yes there are some sights that can be played from kentucky online and that not sure why there is a issue upon this game second life. I have read also in several articals of how online is fine just as there no casino's physically built in real world. I am going to continue to look into it. I know they said it is something that has not been completely decided upon. I just do not see how this whole time it was fair for all to enter and play and now they put a restriction and ban on certain states.
I don't know how they came to the current list of prohibited jurisdictions so far and I imagine that is not the final list, but they do have the full right to limit access to their service based on the general Linden Lab Terms Of Service. So doesn't matter what we think or what the local laws say in our areas, we waved that power to dispute it when we agreed to the TOS signing up for SL.
Here's where it states it in the TOS:
"11. GENERAL PROVISIONS
11.1 The Service is a United States-based service.
Linden Lab controls and operates the Service from its offices in the United States. Linden Lab makes no representation that any aspect of the Service is appropriate or available for use outside of the United States. Those who access the Service from other locations are doing so on their own initiative and are responsible for compliance with applicable local laws regarding your online conduct and acceptable content, if and to the extent local laws apply. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we reserve the right to limit the availability of, restrict access to, or discontinue the Service and/or any content, program, product, service or other feature described or available on the Service to any person, entity, geographic area, or jurisdiction, at any time and in our sole discretion, and to limit the quantities of any content, program, product, service, or other feature that we provide."
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Ayesha Lytton wrote:Question for Linden Lab:The definition of a Skill game for purposes of licensing specifies that it accepts/allows AND pays out L$. If a skill game does not accept or pay L$, but uses US Dollars or another currency and does not in any way involve L$, would it be permitted a) at all, and b) on a non-gaming region?
Ayesha, I think Linden already answered it in the Skill Gaming Policy & Wagering Policy:
for Part A of your post -
"4. Creators
- Should you wish to create a Skill Game for use in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) have received, and paid for, a Creator License from Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; (ii) will only offer Skill Games that have been approved by Linden Lab through the Skill Gaming application process; (iii) will abide by, and remain in full compliance with, the Skill Gaming Program Terms and Conditions; and (iv) will maintain accurate, current and complete information about yourself and your Skill Games through your Second Life account and the Skill Gaming application process.
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Each Creator shall:
- Ensure that “[slgaming]” will be included as a prefix in the root object name field of each Skill Game;
- Ensure that the “llTransferLindenDollars” Linden Scripting Language function will be used for all outgoing Linden Dollar transactions for each Skill Game; and
- Verify that each purchaser of its approved Skill Games has been approved by Linden Lab as an Operator through the Skill Gaming application process. Linden Lab will maintain a list of Operators."
for Part B of your post -
"By operating, accessing, using, or participating in Skill Gaming in Second Life (including permitting others to operate Skill Gaming in a region in which you control), you agree to and accept this Skill Gaming Policy, including all policies and terms linked to or otherwise referenced herein. If you do not so agree, you decline this Skill Gaming Policy, in which case you are prohibited from operating, accessing, using, and participating in Skill Gaming."
"7. General Terms and Conditions
- Skill Gaming is not permitted in the Second Life area in which Linden Lab is the estate owner (the “Mainland”).
- It shall be a violation of this Skill Gaming Policy to create, operate, or offer Skill Games in Second Life without a License or outside an approved Skill Gaming Region, or to circumvent the prohibitions set out in Section 6."
Going outside of that would then be a violation of the policy and subject to the actions they would take for violations.
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Perrie Juran wrote:
First of all, see all comments between mine and yours.But since you asked,"Affidavits may be written in the first or third person, depending on who drafted the document. If in the first person, the document's component parts are:-
acommencementwhich identifies the "affiant of truth",generally stating that everything is true, under penalty of perjury, fine, or imprisonment;
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anattestationclause, usually a, at the end certifying the affiant made oath and the date; and
- signatures of the author and witness.
Ifan affidavit is notarized or authenticated, etc, etc"Pay attention to that big word "if" in the last line. It does not say "required."Now can you show me a source that says, "All affidavits in the U.S. must be "notarized?" And even if you found one that still wouldn't answer what form the affidavit must take for International users.So it is again a question that Linden Lab needs to answer IF there is a required format for the affidavit.disclaimer: IANALeta:shpelllingFirst off, I hope you are not using Wikipedia as your legal source and guideline. Here are a few (of the many) legal-oriented sites and articles that state that a "sworn affidavit" should or preferably be notarized:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/legal-difference-between-affidavit-declaration-3194.html
http://research.lawyers.com/depositions-and-affidavits.html
http://formswift.com/affidavit
Quoting from one of those links it says:
"Notarization is another legal consideration pertaining to these affidavit forms. In most cases, an affidavit is only considered legally valid if it is notarized, meaning that is must be authenticated by a licensed notary public. This means that the affiant will need to sign the document in the presence of a notary, and the notary’s signature and stamp will need to be applied to the affidavit. Otherwise, the legal weight of the document could be called into question."
With that said, it means it's in the best interest to get the affidavit also notarized, which is why I erred on the side of saying yes they should be notarized in their best interest legally. To notarize means it ensures the authenticity of the signatures on the document and gives it more legal credibitlity if you have to end up getting legally challenged.
For you to give people the idea they can or may be able to go without notarization is not wise, as if they do skip it and end up in court they are in real serious trouble.
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Perrie Juran wrote:daisybloomer wrote:secrets88 wrote:A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ?
Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized.Bullshiat. Stop giving legal advice.The requirements for an affidavit will vary by State in the U.S. and I'd have no idea what it is for other Countries.That is a question that needs answered by LL.Really, I have it incorrect Perrie? Care to back it up? Go look up the definition of what a "sworn affidavit" is and let me know.
Most if not all sworn affidavits all have the same component and procedure, which is have it signed before a witness (or notary) and having it notarized. The requirements that you might be talking about that differ by state may be those outside those two main things I mentioned.
You might be getting mixed up with a "sworn statement" or "pledge" which don't require a notarization. On the e-Application Linden makes it clear that they want a "sworn affidavit" from the person applying to be a creator and/or operator.
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Liska, the best way to address that and all the other items people have been asking about in this thread is through the definition of "Skill Game" and "Skill Gaming" in the new Second Life Skill Gaming Policy.
Here's the definition in it's entirety as posted by Linden a few times here too:
"“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law."
For simplicity sake, I'm going to rearrange it into a form that everyone can use as a litmus test to figure out if the object or game they have in question falls under as a skill game.
“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming”
1) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play2) provides a payout in Linden Dollars
3) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance
4) legally authorized (allowed) by applicable United States and international law
If all four (4) parts above are TRUE, then the object in question is a skill game or involved in skill gaming and subject to the new policy that starts on August 1st.
If any or all of those four (4) parts are FALSE, then the object in question would not be a skill game or involved in skill gaming and either:
a) "chance game" which is prohibited in SL as stated in the Wagering Policy
b) "freeplay" object which you don't have to input any money to play or use
c) other object that has no game aspect (like vendors, tipjars, etc.), illegal or legal
This is the evaluation that Linden wants you to do and is another reason (aside from liability) why they reptitively paste that section of the policy.
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secrets88 wrote:A sworn affidavit must be notarized, I believe ?
Yes sworn affidavits must be witnessed and notarized.
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WDL Bayn wrote:Hi LL,Coming back to my original question, and I'll have to agree with Gaia Gabe here, how would we know what games should we apply for if the approved game list is still empty? It's creators 1st, then operators. We can't have both the same deadline as it's nonsense. What is no game will pass your validation until Aug. 1st?Thanks,WDL Bayn
I think you're thinking about it more complicated than it really is. I would say for the current time since there are no approved creators or games listed on the corresponding listing pages, I would just have the lawyer state for that part that you would be lawfully abiding to and operating any games (from their approved creators) that make it to the Linden list only, citing the link to that page. And you would state the same in your affidavit also. Getting the extra legal piece from an attorney is a safeguard to them, where if you were to have the guts to operate unlawfully outside of the scope in which Linden sets, not only would you be 100% liable but your lawyer as well since giving that "reasoned opinion" translates to a confirmation that you would be running your business correctly within policies and laws that are in place.
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Also everyone keep in mind the August 1st deadline is when they are switching to the new policy and procedure, and not the very last day you can apply as an operator and/or creator. You can still do so after that date, only you may have to temporarily close your business starting August 1st until you and the games you have get approved, assuming you submit your application after that date.
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Gaia Gabe wrote:I would ask for end of September about Creators and other 2 weeks for operators.I live in UE and during Agoust is a desert here. Courts are closed and attorneys are in holiday. I do need a US attorney but I also need a UE sollicitor.Thank you.
One previous poster just before yours mentioned start of September (1 more month), now you mention going even two months out from the original date set by Linden and on top of that a different date for operators. Be careful what you ask for. Consider there may be a valid business reason on their behalf why they have set a hard deadline for August 1st and not to make the applying process more difficult.
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Anabella Mosely wrote:So let me get this straight....If you live in one the prohibited states you won't even be able to get onto a sim that is considered "gaming" Which means even if you don't play the games but work as a host then you are out of a job and can no longer make L's within the realm of SL without doing something else...Like stripping...hosting at a club..and/or dj'ing....At least that is my understanding of it. That those that currently work at gaming places and live in one of those states won't be allowed to get on the sim once it goes into a "gaming region" Correct me if I am wrong on this...Can see how this is going to hurt a lot of the regions that do gaming.I already know of one place that has said they are going to shut their doors for good.
Anabella, that would be correct as I understand it based on the policy and information they have out. And it's really not SL's fault on that, but would rather lay the onus on the legislation and government of that prohibited state.
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PaisleeRose wrote:Does anyone know where I can get a cheap lawyer for this? Please let me know. I have know idea who to contact for legal advice on second life skills games.thank you
Paislee, if you don't have a personal attorney that can do that then you are probably going to be looking for an attorney that is practicing internet law. Best would be to start looking local (assuming you are in the USA) to you that practices that kind of law to do the drafting of the document that you need. The lawyer also has to be USA based as well.
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Clint Scorfield wrote:Yes but wouldn't my main account being owner of the sim be a part of the buisness for he has the land holdings that my alt account that holds the bank and games goes onto those land holdings. As I said it is a very confuseing situation that is not explained very well.
That's going to be Linden's call to make in the application approval process. I have to admit with this new policy and process, while it's good for organizing things more, it's quite a gauntlet both in the application process and financially for someone to get through and maintain going forward unless they have the large financial capacity to do so. So for the small to average business owner it would end up being more stress than it's worth. And judging by the type of information they are asking for in the application and the need for a clear money trail, I can only educatedly guess and say it is paving the way for taxation somewhere down the pipeline.
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Clint Scorfield wrote:Yes that's what i'm reading from the files as well which also means it doesn't really matter what we do since we cna't spend the L's we also can't purchase new games from creators with the L's we earn as an operator and since 95% of the skill games that have been and wil lbe created are non-trans we cannot purchase any new games that we may see in the future. As well as that means that only creators can be operators which also means they have to be the sim owners if I'm reading it all correctly. As to which a friend told me that the Operator account can name some accounts that the lindens can be sent to I beleive they said 6 when they filed there paper work. But that would mean out of the hundreds of game creators we might get to use 6 in my case needing to give money from my operator account to a sim owner account would make it 5. I wish we could get more clarification on this all together so that is why I'm asking.
I think the operator accounts would be able to buy and be the only account able to buy the approved skill games from approved Creators based on Section (3)(e)(iii) in the e-Application. Also the bit you mention about naming some other accounts the L can go to, that falls under the Exceptions part in Section (4)©(i)(1) in which those accounts would be those that are working for your business if you have hired a staff. I am not sure if alts of the owners qualify as that would circumvent the whole idea of having an operator account strictly for the machines. If I have to err on one side, I would say Linden doesn't approve those additional names unless they have a work function within the framework of the business.
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Clint Scorfield wrote:My question is this. I have my main account which has all of my land holdings then I have my alternate or bank accounts that control my businesses. So the question is this is my alt who is not premium and has no land holdings able to be the operator and continue to run the business on a skill games sim owned by my main account. Or is it best that my main becomes the operator and then begin the entire business from scratch? I also have no issues turning the alternate account into a premium account to follow the validation process with up to date payment info.
After re-reading the "Operator Account" section on the e-Application a few times, it's best to use the account in which there is no other activity going on with them, as an operator account cannot use the L it makes from the machines for anything else other than the activity that goes on with the machines (meaning no other commercial activity or gifting with the L in that account). Also even if you decide which one to use, it still is going to be subjected to the applying and approval process by Linden.
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Phil Deakins wrote:daisybloomer wrote:-That's right, hence why I said that it would have to be "pay-to-play games." I do not think there is a "game machine" in which it is one way in either direction, either paying money in and don't get anything or not paying anything and getting money.
Whether you think it or not, it's always best to be accurate or you could steer people wrong. You don't know that pay-in only games don't exist in SL. You only know that you haven't seen any. LL saw fit to include both pay-in and pay-out, and, if LL thought it necessary to include both, so should you. There's no point arguing about it. What you wrote was wrong, and would mislead anyone who took it at face value.Also, this isn't about "game machine"s. It's about gambling games, not all of which are machines."Your sim with games - If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play (pay L in and it pays L out) and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's license and either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license."
Ok, in that case just a few words to add in and has been edited in the original post as such. So now it is correct and your argument or gripe is now moot.
How about now adding some productive infoirmation to this thread instead of picking/policing what people post here, like you did with someone else also. Have a nice day.
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Phil Deakins wrote:daisybloomer wrote:Phil Deakins wrote:daisybloomer wrote:amanda Carousel wrote:Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank youTotally confused lol
amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far.Your sim with games -If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's licenseand either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license.The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy:"Gaming Residents- Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction.
- In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted.
- If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions."
You are mistaken. Pay-to-play games are nothing to do with it. They are only something to do with it if they also pay out to the players.Paying to play is not gambling.Receiving winnings is not gambling.Paying to play AND receiving winnings is gambling.Gambling is only allowed if it's a game of skill. Those are the games that the new setup is about."“Skill Game”or“Skill Gaming”shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law."Based on the definition of a skill game in the Skill Gaming Policy, very high likelihood pay-to-play games are skill games. If not then they either are a freeplay game (no money needed to play) or a chance game (prohibited by TOS). There is no gray area about this. And if it's a one way pay into the machine and no money comes out, then only thing I can think of would either be a vendor, rental box, gacha machine or tipjar.There may be a very high likelihood, but that's not the point. What you wrote was wrong, so your advice to the person you were advising was wrong - as #3 in the part you quoted clearly shows. If it doesn't pay out as well as pay in, then it's not gambling and doesn't come under this new stuff. If anyone took what you wrote as being right, then they might easily remove perfectly legitimate games from their land.Someone suggested that you leave LL to answer the questions. It's not a bad idea.I am not sure if you carefully read my response to that person and the Linden materials they put out on skill gaming.
"What you wrote was wrong, so your advice to the person you were advising was wrong - as #3 in the part you quoted clearly shows."
-The part I quoted was for the second question she had about child avatars trying to enter Skill Gaming Regions. The quote was the rules set forth by Linden in their new gaming policy, so I am not incorrect there.
"If it doesn't pay out as well as pay in, then it's not gambling and doesn't come under this new stuff."
-That's right, hence why I said that it would have to be "pay-to-play games." I do not think there is a "game machine" in which it is one way in either direction, either paying money in and don't get anything or not paying anything and getting money.
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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:I wonder.. Is a gatcha machine technically a game of chance? Its like those claw games at the mall.
It's a good question, though I think the distinction is in where the element of chance is. In a skill game, you put money in and you can end up with nothing coming out. In RL, those claw machines you are talking about, you put money in and you can end up grabbing nothing and end up with nothing coming out. Gacha machine, you put money in but you do get sometihng out every time. The difference is the first two is chance "of winning something" versus the last is chance "of what you win."
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Phil Deakins wrote:daisybloomer wrote:amanda Carousel wrote:Hi, I am not the creator of the games I have on my sim, I rent a sim that has these games on them, I am not sure if that makes me the operator sorry am a little confused on this stuff. Do need to fill out an application just because I have the games on my sim? Also am hearing a lot of rumors such as child avis are not going to be allowed on these sims? Is this true or not. Thank youTotally confused lol
amanda, I am going to try and break my response into two parts for the two different questions you have. I am going based on what is stated in the policy, faq and wiki Linden has issued so far.Your sim with games -If you did not rez these games there and they are pay-to-play and someone else did, then that other person needs to apply for an operator's licenseand either the games have to be moved to a Gaming Region or the current sim it is on converted to a Gaming Region. If you did rez them in addition to being the renter of the sim, then you need to apply for an operator's license and also subjected to the Gaming Region conversion or would have to move them off to one that is. This is also assuming that the games that are rezzed there have been approved by Linden and the creator also has been approved for a creator's license.The child avatars - If they don't meet the Gaming Residents requirements as stated in the policy they won't be allowed into any Gaming Region. In general, it doesn't matter if they are Santa Claus or a goat avatar if they don't pass the requirements Linden has set then they won't be allowed in. Here's the definition of Gaming Resident as posted in their policy:"Gaming Residents- Should you wish to participate in Skill Gaming in Second Life, you represent and agree that you: (i) are at least nineteen (19) years of age; (ii) have the legal authority to agree to this Skill Gaming Policy; (iii) reside in, and are accessing a Skill Gaming Region from, a jurisdiction in which participation in Skill Gaming is legally authorized; and (iv) are of legal age to participate in Skill Gaming in your jurisdiction.
- In order to enter a Skill Gaming Region, you must establish and maintain a Second Life account with accurate, current and complete information about yourself, including a valid payment method. Any Skill Gaming conducted in a Second Life region that has not been recognized as a Skill Gaming Region is not permitted.
- If you fail to satisfy any of these requirements, you are not permitted to enter any Skill Gaming Regions."
You are mistaken. Pay-to-play games are nothing to do with it. They are only something to do with it if they also pay out to the players.Paying to play is not gambling.Receiving winnings is not gambling.Paying to play AND receiving winnings is gambling.Gambling is only allowed if it's a game of skill. Those are the games that the new setup is about."“Skill Game” or “Skill Gaming” shall mean a game, implemented through an Inworld object: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; 2) requires or permits the payment of Linden Dollars to play; 3) provides a payout in Linden Dollars; and 4) is legally authorized by applicable United States and international law. Games in which Second Life residents do not pay to play are not within the scope of this Skill Gaming Policy. “Skill Games” are not intended to include and shall not include “gambling” as defined by applicable United States and international law."
Based on the definition of a skill game in the Skill Gaming Policy, very high likelihood pay-to-play games are skill games. If not then they either are a freeplay game (no money needed to play) or a chance game (prohibited by TOS). There is no gray area about this. And if it's a one way pay into the machine and no money comes out, then only thing I can think of would either be a vendor, rental box, gacha machine or tipjar.
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JasonBaller wrote:I am an owner of a full region and I'm looking to list it as skill gaming - I need a few clarifications pleaseWhen would the fee get applied - on the Sim tier due date or immediately? I think Support can also answer that but a public posting would help all those region owners.Some profit share operators are saying they will offer that arrangement after August 1st - Does it mean you need to apply as an operator to host such machines?to "continue to operate your skill games until your application fee is rejected or approved" means what exactly ? business as usual until you hear from LL?
The section of the FAQ you quoted, here's what I understand it means:
If the operators of the machines apply and submit their application and the additional required materials before August 1st and they don't hear back from Linden with a decision until after that date, they can continue to run business as usual from August 1st till the date they receive a decision from Linden.
If the operators of the machines apply and submit their application and the additional required materials after August 1st, then they have to cease business starting August 1st until they receive a decision from Linden.
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You've Got Till November 1st...........................
in General Discussion Forum
Posted
Your lengthy post was a good read sloowdown. I do want to add my 2 cents to this and say that the part I quoted above with your mention about the large % hold has been a big concern with customers going to the gaming sims both before and after the new Skill Gaming Policy. The concerns are even more amplified now since many are now more aware or pay attention hoping the new policy would create a much more "fair" environment for both the customers and operators. Unfortunately, with some customers experiencing losing more money than before (low win ratio) and LL's lack of enforcement after the gaming policy went into effect September 1st, it has gotten rather messy.
I think though that there is a bigger issue also at hand that you also touched a little upon with the application and any fees to LL associated with gaming on SL. It will have to be seen come November 1st, how actively and effectively LL goes about enforcing the Skill Gaming Policy. This has been rather absent since the new policy went into effect on September 1st as there are still some unapproved gaming sims still in business and a couple approved ones running some unapproved games. If after November 1st, LL fails to effectively enforce the policy in its entirety they set forth and continue to collect fees, I do believe this would amount to being a scam or fraud from a real life legal point of view. They would have essentially made game operators and creators spend a lot of real currency for application and legal fees collecting them under the false idea that LL was being serious and would actively do their side of things.
Important thing for everyone to keep in mind is that no matter what version of the TOS or additional policies is drafted up and implemented by LL, any state, federal or real life laws would supercede them and have the final word at any time.
Hopefully, there will be a much more noticeable change for the better come November 1st...