[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

1 hour ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

But your complaint should more generally be directed, not merely at gachas, but at the whole economic system. In RL, for instance, people choose, quite deliberately, to buy stuff with corporate logos on it: they want the "status" that wearing Converse, or whatever is hot now, gives them. And, yeah, they are doing free advertising, and also feeding the hype machine that makes logos so desirable in the first place. (Probably you should read Naomi Klein's No Logo -- you'd probably like and agree with it.)

First of all, thank you for this constructive reply. It is based on arguments and this is sometimes refreshing. I want to say to this that wearing a logo is a choice that comes with buying the product, which you agree to before you buy it. The gacha system makes you end up with products you don't need, for which you have paid, and turns you into a vendor or when you don't want that hassle, into a sucker because you have paid more for the goods you required.

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If there are gachas that are fraudulent -- i.e., "rigged" -- then, yes, LL should step in (although god knows how they'd determine that), but mostly neither of those two things applies in SL. No one's health and well-being is at risk because they can't get a "rare" from a gacha.

Someone already pointed out that there is completely no transparency on this. Who knows if the system is rigged to have a higher chance on certain colors or objects?

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What would really be useful is a public information campaign so that those who don't understand how they are being exploited by gachas get it. They would then be in a position to make an informed decision about whether they're alright with that, or not. And for that reason, I'd very much like to see the odds published for each machine: I think an argument can be made that LL should require that.

I completely agree with that. And not only should the odds be published but also verified. If not, the vendor has virtually any kind of freedom to rig the system in any kind they want.

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But, really, your complaint here is about capitalism and consumerism, not gachas. That's fine, of course . . . but also probably rather pointless here.

I am not against capitalism as I am not against prostitution or certain kinds of drugs. But I am against certain types of prostitution, and certain types of drugs. And yes, so I am against certain types of capitalism. What happened with over the counter derivatives, subprime mortgages, S&L scandals, false advertising, horse-meat scandals, false labeling, not labeling at all... the list of corporate trickery is very long. All of them started small didn't they? And because of the lucrative nature they mushroom into something enormous. Eventually the public has to play catch up with such practices, and in the meantime the damage is done and the profits already cashed in.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

19 hours ago, Beth Macbain said:

There is a thing called personal responsibility. If someone can't control themselves, that's not really my problem. That sounds callous, but just because someone has a problem controlling themselves doesn't mean I should have to suffer.

Certainly, but there is also thing called public responsibility. We don't always have to think about ourselves.

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You are doing that exact thing when you play a gacha. You are agreeing to pay a specific price and the seller is agreeing that you will get one of the items in the machine. Do you get pissed when you put a nickel in a gumball machine and don't get a red one?

Only the price is agreed upon, not the item! Because the item is random to eternity and you might never get what you want. You can get the same item 10 times and still not get the exact color you want. This constitutes the nature of gambling, not a sound commercial transaction.

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If I'm willing to pay that $20-$30 to get the burger I want, and I know up front that this is the way McDonald's is selling their burgers, there is zero problem with that. The thing is that it's never going to happen.

I mentioned that whether it is likely to happen is not the issue. It is the to show the nature of the unfair principle of gacha.

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Now, if McDonald's kept their regular menu, as SL merchants do, and also made a food gacha with special burgers that couldn't be bought off the menu and it was a game of chance to see which one I'd get, knowing that for $2 I'm going to get a burger of some sort that is worth at least $2, and might be worth $10, I think that sounds super fun! And if I can turn around to the guy behind me and he happens to want the burger I got, and is willing to pay me $3 to ensure he gets the burger he wants, why is there a problem with that?

I agree with that. But I wouldn't have an issue with gacha if it was a third option besides a fatpack and the option to buy an individual outfit. I would rather spend 1000L on one outfit, or 3000L for a fatpack, then to keep pushing 75L in the machine because it leaves me no other choice. I wouldn't be bothered with gacha if it was a gimmick option besides the regular options to buy.

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Also, there are many gachas that are beach houses and SL pets. It literally is okay for anything to be a gacha.

Then it can also be ok for McDonalds. If that is the attitude, anything could be gacha, from real estate to your health care. My issue is... do we want that. And this isn't about you and me, but think about future generations. Do we want 50% of digital economy to be gacha by 2049? 50% of our normal economy by 2100? Do we want it to exceed some more?

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I would absolutely pay L$50 for goofy random teleport like that. Sounds like super fun, too! Somebody make this happen!

That is a personal attitude. Also for your comments about the colors black and purple. I think from this as the general perspective. These are no arguments against the unfair nature of gacha's and how they operate.

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Dude, neither of these things are about making life easy as possible for customers. McDonald's employees are cleaning those tables because people are gross and won't do it and McDonald's has visits from  health inspectors that will shut them down if the tables aren't cleaned and it attracts roaches or mice.

And why do you think these health inspectors exist? To protect the interest of the customer!

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You don't put clothes back yourself because the store is making sure that you aren't stealing them and that they're put back in the right spot and in the right way so they don't have to spend hours and hours (which they do anyway) to put everything back where it goes. It's for their ease, not yours.

That is not true, because if it is a mess in an apparel store or McDonalds or anywhere else, the customer stays away. It is for the customer that they put effort in their operation. In SL under the gacha system, this has been reversed without any supervision, legal aid for the customer, the right to sue a company, to appeal to higher institutions, and so on.

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Both of those things are lethal and will kill people dead if used incorrectly. A gacha is not going to kill anyone. People can become addicted to anything. SL in itself can be addicting for some people. Should we just close it down to protect those people? How about eating? There are plenty of people who are addicted to food. Let's make food illegal! Sex? There are support groups and treatment facilities all over the world for people addicted to sex. Let's make that illegal, too!

Sex and food are inalienable rights. That is not the case for the company to sell gacha.

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if the market bears that 10% or 25%, then clearly we're okay with that.

Then it can also be 50% or 75% or in the case of Horntail, a 100%. I am not ok with that.

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You don't get to be the arbiter of what is morally or ethically wrong. You don't get to take away something a lot of people enjoy because you don't like it. I hate mushrooms. Can we get rid of those? If people didn't enjoy gachas and put their lindens in them, there would be no gachas.

I don't get to be an arbiter, but I do have a say in it. And that's what I'm doing. Having a say in it.

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You're being incredibly over the top with this whole thing.

That is subjective. If all commercial activity on SL exceeds 50%, and there are no limitations from a legal standpoint, it could happen, and then more people will ***** about this.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

I would also like to add that in a normal situation a vendor should put effort in selling their wares. In the case with gachas, the consumer is set up with items he don't need from the vendor, which turns him into a vendor as well, doing the work for the vendor. After you bought something, in a normal situation it is your choice whether  you want to advertise for the company by means of mouth-to-mouth or otherwise. In the gacha situation you are forced to advertise for the company you bought from. A normal company has normal exposure. A gacha situation forces the consumer to do the exposure for them.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

37 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

Glad I never played gachas, as I have an addictive personality.

I'm glad to hear that. But sadly there are those who do. Someone with an addictive personality can spend 10K on a gacha, do it the next day again and so on. Do we really need that? Who or what is benefited by that? We can say that those people have to smarten up, or we can try to protect them.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

Ok I've read everyone's comments and I have a few things to mention before I'm ready to move on.

People say often that you have a choice not to play. But sometimes you encounter something that is perfect, beyond your dreams. This can happen with clothes yes, but also with a car, a piece of furniture, anything. You choose not to play unless you meet something that you really want. That is the power of gacha. Of all the items to be sold as such there is always someone who got to got that item because it is not featured anywhere else.

Then there is the argument that you will get something in return, and so it can't be gambling. But if you get the same outfit twice or for the 3rd time, in a color that is hard to sell (which is often black and purple), the item is useless anyway and not of any value. Also, the nature of gambling remains the same, because you don't know what you will get for the price you play. In a fair market, the buyer and seller always agree upon a specific price and the goods to be traded for that price.

If for example, you stand at the McDonalds counter, and they strip the burger from the bun, the ketchup, lettuce, onions in different random items to be gained for the price of one dollar, you can imagine what will happen. You will sometimes have to pay 20 or 30 dollar before you will get a complete burger. That is exactly the nature of gacha's. Why is it that gacha's are ok for clothes and not for food? Suppose meals are split up in a restaurant, or the supermarket will start having gacha's on things you want. If gacha's are ok for clothes, then from a legal point of view, it can be ok for anything. What if secondlife pets become gacha. What if your favorite beachhouse becomes gacha. What if you have to pay 50L for a certain 'premium rare' teleport and you don't know where you are teleported to.

Then people say that you can look on the marketplace. But the only items you will find there are the ones that nobody wants. The vendors create certain color choices that are hard to match with any outfit or avatar, which is often black and purple. So you cannot resell them. Suppose you are in McDonalds again and their burgers are gacha. Then a resellers market will arise close to the counter but at a certain point this market will plummet because not all the items are available to make a complete burger. New customers will not buy items on the reseller market because they have the chance to get that item when playing gacha themselves, or have to wait ages before that item becomes available as reseller.

What is commercial activity based upon? It is based on lots of activity from the vendor to make life as easy as possible for the customer as part of the service. This is why they wipe your table at McDonalds and don't have to do the dishes . This is why you try an outfit at an apparel store and don't have to put it back yourself. They are supposed to make life easier for you, not harder. With gacha you end up paying more for the items that you need, and you end up with items that you don't need, for which you have to spend time and effort to resell them again. For some people this might be fun, but for others it is a huge pain in the ass, especially if they can pay any reasonable price if the price was fixed and listed.

Finally, the argument that gacha's are legal. Yes, they are legal. But once it was legal to sell heroine as cough syrup. Not so long ago asbestos was legal, and over the counter derivatives. Anything can be legal or illegal, we just have to think about if it is desired to be either legal or illegal, and what it is based upon; do we feel the need to protect commercial activities, or do we need to protect the customer and the individual.

Any market that is lucrative has the potential to become big. Now let's say the total amount of products (or income) from gacha's is currently 5%. Would we be ok with it, if that figure would be 10% in 3 years and 25% in 10 years? Would we be ok with it if real life follows suit, appreciating the example of secondlife, and these figures will also be realized in normal society?

Do I think these things will happen? That's not the issue, hopefully it illustrates the point I'm trying to make.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

6 hours ago, Bree Giffen said:

There is a bill introduced in the US Congress to ban the sale of lootboxes in video games. It takes a long time to turn a bill into law (note: do not post schoolhouse rock video). If this ever happens I think LL would ban gachas just to be safe.

If that's the case I'd be happy with that. Also videogames are indeed well known for dragging customers into paying more and more. This is a form of aggressive capitalism that I'm really unhappy about and on Steam the complaints about it go through the roof.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

3 hours ago, Skell Dagger said:

If you'd bothered to search Marketplace for it first you could have had it for almost half what you paid, and without the unwanted spares. The pink and white set is this 'Blossom' one:

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/products/search?utf8=✓&search[category_id]=&search[maturity_level]=G&search[keywords]=horntail+AND+noumi+AND+blossom

Cheapest prices there (as of Jun 8th) are:

Skirt & Szorty = L$249
Leggings = L$200
Boots = L$222

Total cost = L$671. Sell the spares and you'll more than cover that.

(Currently 8 search results at that link. As they sell, they will disappear, so if you don't come back to this thread for a few days don't expect those items to still be there.)

No, that was not the outfit I wanted. I posted a  picture of another one because the outfit I wanted looked very skimpy

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

Just now, Fox Wijaya said:

in case of cacha it's the script what you get, not what you need, and most likely not what you want. Deal with it before the temp rizes and you melt.

I find it really strange that people would take the side of the vendors, and not the customers. But that is probably something that creeped in from RL into SL.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

2 minutes ago, Fox Wijaya said:

think you mean "want"... life won't change when you don't get that item.

Should you or the vendor decide what I want or need, or should the customer?

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

3 minutes ago, Fritigern Gothly said:

Since the spares are resellable, and since there is a HUGE and thriving market reselling these items, check out the marketplace and find the pink version, pay the (cheapest) reseller for that items and walk away happy in the knowledge that you got the pink version!

Nobody forces you to play the gatchas. I don't play them either (except for literally one time only). If there's one that I want, I check the MP and if the one that I want is too expensive (perhaps because it's a rare) I check back one or two days later and see if someone had put a cheaper one on the MP, or I simply forget about it and just don't get the stuff.

Yes, playing the gatchas is bit of a gamble, but in an actual gambling game, if luck isn't on your side you will be out of your money. With a gatcha, you always get something for the money you pay. Show me a gambling game where the same is true.

 

 

But if it's not available on the MP and you really NEED that item then you are still forced to play!

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

1 minute ago, Digit Gears said:

And there is unfortunately a LOT of stuff being funneled into gacha's lately, it's rather hard to ignore. There's even some avatars that are released only through gacha's, but those atleast use a little voucher card thing that can be passed around, which gives you the avatar in copy/mod perms.

Yeah I wish that the Lindens would revise this. See if they can get an official point of view on this.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

2 minutes ago, moirakathleen said:

If you think it is a scam, then don't play gachas.   

But sometimes there is something that you really want. If it's only available through gatcha you're kinda forced to play it.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

My girlfriend did 15 attempts and we settled for the blue and winterpink outfits from Horntail. That's 2 outfits for 1125L which is not bad, however... we wanted the full pink one, not the winterpink. So we spend 1125L and still didn't get the outfit we wanted and now we have to quit because it can take ages before you get only the pink one, a 2x (1out of 24) chance.

Can't we do something about this? I still see it as scamming customers.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

Thank you for your replies. Still I am against this, only if its optional I have no problem with it.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

Well I clearly don't know anything about this. If it's possible to resell the items you don't want then it is not that bad, however... how can you resell items when they are No Copy?

Where can we go for these second hand markets?

And can you get the same item twice? I believe it is vital to know that.

[Gambling Game in SL Stores for Outfits]

Hi all,

I would like your opinion on this: In two stores I found so far, Horntail and Moon Elixer, there are outfits shown without a price. There is only the possibility to pay 75L for which you randomly get one item from the board, in a color that is also random. See attached files.

Horntail presents 6 possible colors on 4 possible items, presenting a total of 24 possibilities. Moon Elixer, on this example, list 22. That means that 24x75L the total would be 1800L, which is fairly high for a fatpack, but how do you know if it is not possible to get the same item twice? Then the possibilities are virtually endless and you might not even get the item in the color you want.

So I would like to know how the community and the Lindens TOS thinks about this. This is probably a form of gambling, but you will not get Lindens in return but a random item instead. Also, should vendors not clearly state the price the buyer should pay and the items listed to be acquired for that price?

I may not be bitching about this if there is a possibility to buy one costume color for the board, for a price mentioned and a range of items listed, and/or a fatpack option. If there is on top of that a possibility to play this 75L random item game, I wouldn't even mind...

So please, tell me your thoughts on this and if the TOS provides any regulations against this and if not, should there be any?