Denver Ghost

*edited for singling out for negative commentary*

Darren Scorpio wrote: I have already said enough on this issue but let me just tell you this. About a month ago on the sim I rent there were hardly any vacant plots but since the start of this debate and the emergence of the Greenzone HUD the sim has remained at about 50% vacancy because one resident there is using Redzone. On another note I truly respect the estate owners who have chosen to ban such tools from their sims, it shows a high level of professionalism and integrity, just the kind of people I would rent from. Thank you. All of the arguments from Rz users are fallacious. But the voyeurs just aren't worth arguing with. They find out soon enough when their businesses begin failing as the grid freefalls in spending and attendance.

In our sims, Redzone and any other IP data collection device or HUD is banned. Anyone caught using it, resident or visitor, will be banned. Signs are posted to that effect. I might also add that we do not allow anyone to impede general transit by using the land option "age verify" or "payment information only." Individuals may be banned but not entire classes of people. Owners DO have the right to deny all public access and use their whitelists because that applies equally to everyone.

I don't attend clubs in SL any longer. Thank Redzone and the other data miners, thank the lindens for allowing the activity even to this day, thank clubs like Gol Element 8 for using Redzone. Greenzone no longer has a detection there, but someone needs to go by there with the new patch and see if they get any suspicious media requests. Most are merely hiding Rz or using another like alts pro that can not be detected. This will be the death of SL and its economy (especially the music economy) if LL doesn't ban these devices and remove them from the grid. The RZ HUD is still out there being worn and scanning anyone anywhere. No, until LL does something more than talk, you can keep your music. I would think club owners, instead of shutting their eyes and criticising those who care about privacy, would be the ones on the forefront of the fight against these detectors because YOU have the most to lose, as does anyone who lives off tips, because you won't be getting mine..not possible if I'm not there.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: well, you certainly worded your question quite diplomatically, Ciaran! You should give a tutorial on that. Of course it reduces sales. People are hotter than....(oh, I could plug in some phrases here, but not allowed).....a wet hen.... The most recent "enlightenment" of a particular style of security system, which equates to having your privates groped by the TSA.....only electronically.... then stored for future groping!.... Will be remembered by many as the day their adventures in Second Life came to a screeching halt. Was in the middle of collecting my own database, some nice little handwritten memos in a notebook, jotting down the people who ruined SL for me and others... Unfortunately, my resource got pulled....hopefully someone else will take the initiative. If they're going to collect my "stuff"....and treat me as a criminal the minute I set foot on their property, then I sure as heck am going to do the same in return. Unfortunate thing is....that because some chose to operate that way....it will reduce sales across the board, as people have had to adjust their thinking and mode of shopping inworld. Not to mention attending live music events and some extracurricular activities. I'm not paranoid - I'm pissed. And so are others. If the others unplugged for good - that effects us all. Could go into a lengthy list of how that all pans out, but don't want to make the new forum system crash! This week, a neighboring business had a botched security system spamming my store with "You are being ejected" five times a minute, for two solid days, until the dipshiz Yahoo came online to shut it off. I had IMs in my box all day long, and they were NOT pleasant! It wasn't just about the annoying spam, but moreso the fact that people thought I had a security system, and what that implies. If the people using the systems think that their stuff is so valuable and precious that they can justify destroying the adventures and exploration of those taking full advantage of an amazing world.....and thus mess up the economy, while they are at it..... Well, can't really say how I feel about that, here.... Except that no way in heck am I going to support them with dollars. And it ain't about a few lindens....they are going to lose some Real Life Dollars. And those that are hiding it? There's a place for people like that. An extraordinary post Mickey. I'm with you.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Regardless of thread title, still a lot of ground to cover on the redzone issue. People who traveled throughout the grid in the last 6 months pretty much got their IP address collected and stored, considering the names of stores that were appearing on the name and shame lists. Went to most of my haunts, and sure enough. These were popular places. And I do mean "were." Damage was done. Reading comments on dude's forum, doubt that information will be disposed of, (quite the contrary, in fact, with a ban)....and doubt there won't be some trials and tribs coming down the road for some people exploited with that info. Recently, it was brought to attention that some places are hiding the devices, and curious on how we can determine that, without the aid of the site that was collecting that information. It seems to have disappeared. Many more questions concerning the hiding of this device and how to detect that, and how those continuing to hide the device will be dealt with. Talking inworld, most people have never even heard of redzone. But you can betcha these people dropped their IP address in several locations over the last six months. Hate the fact that they don't have a clue. Took a solid week of reading to get hip on what the issues are. Most people won't do that. Long way to go. Thanks for all the twitter postings and RTs. 1. damage was done...GOOD! This is the most despicable thing LL has ever ALLOWED. CDS,RZ..all still there and threats to the grid. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has ceased spending in SL or buying lindens/visiting clubs (why without music)/tipping Djs or peformers (goes without saying). I can't make a difference by withholding my money from LL, but ALL OF US CAN. 2. Yes they are hiding it, which is why as much as I love ya Theia, I disagree with your white list..because it isn't and can't be proven. I've found several places who are "hiding" RZ by increasing the scan time. If you are merely checking lcoations, you TP in, get an all clear from Greenzone, and either leave or open music and proceed. If you'd just waited a minute or two, you would see the warning alarm from Gz...too late. Some are also lowering the can distance to a small zone one must walk through to enter the area, but from the landing zone, it looks clear to greenzone. One complaint I have is Greenzone maker is not forthcoming with help at all!!. They attempt to obfuscate the limitations of greenzone, and never will make it clear even in IM just exactly how redzone can hide from Gz. They could help by being more transparent. Many think Gz can find Rz in every case and it's not true. However, there was some MISinformation posted here once that said Gz could give a false positive. That is just NOT true. This thing and all others like it need to be zapped from the grid and all inventories. Until then, all of this LL corporate speak has no teeth and means nothing. Absolutely nothing. Actions speak louder than words LL. Pull the devices and do the right thing. Until then, you won't get another thin linden from me and neither will the SL Economy. Redzone is not dead and it's not banned. It's still collecting your information for disclosure in SL or RL and there is nothing you can do to stop it. ARs are simply a joke. This does not address the fact that SL is now totally destroyed without music. Lindens do only as much as needed to silence the bad press, never caring to solve the problem. Up yours SL. YOu're killing your own world. But then what else is new. BTW Linden Lab, DISCLOSURE to the OWNER of the device whether he tells someone or not is STILL DISCLOSURE YOU IDIOTS!!!!

Theia Magic wrote: There is no reasons to keep Redzone alive. None. It's the epic failure of copybot detection being as only .025% of banned avatars are banned for copybotting. Then, take into consideration the number of those avatars banned because they were incorrectly linked as an alt to copybotter, the success rate gets even more dismal. As for griefers? Again, do you have any idea how many innocent people have been banned because of bad avatar links? Thousands of them. Thanks to LL's action to make revealing alts against TOS, at least it can't be used to violate privacy anymore. However, it's very important that everyone realizes it's still out there, it's still active, and it's still collecting IP addresses. It's crucial that you leave media and cookies disabled unless you're 100% sure you're in a Redzone free area. Considering the fact zFire has threatened to make the alt list viewable on a website separate from Linden Lab, for payment via Paypal instead of L$, it's all the more reason to keep your IP out of his corrupt database. ^THIS^// RZ is NOT bannedand this headline probably did more damage to the cause against redzone thanall of zfire's protests.

Redzone is NOT dead and it's NOT banned, but thanks to your headline, most of the SL grid now thinks they're safe. Great piece of misinfo to make people think it's over and stop fighting. RZ is still there, still scanning (as is CDS) without asking consent, and it's not banned or it would have been removed from the grid by Linden Labs.

"What more can we do now" you ask? Keep ARing the people still using this, keep ARIng the other products that do the same things or a derivative thereof..geo-locate IP trackers, CDS, etc. It's ALL disclosure violations. I fear greatly that people will let down their guard and stop caring now that the lindens have come out with this. It is NOT over by any means. You are still not safe and my music is still off...Unless you want to be tracked and your private information disclosed, I suggest you do the same. I'll feel much better when I see LL remove these things from the grid and from inventories (under any name and any functionality including geo-locate and CDS) using their magic poofer button.

Congrats on trying to fix the ONE thing in all of this that was really important: Sim crossings. As for the rest of the "stuff" that requires viewer 2 to use, I just could care less. It's all money wasted. Glitter; no meat. I won't use Viewer 2 no matter what types of "new capabilities" you try to force into it in order to get us to switch. It's just that awful. If LL had taken all the money they wasted on viewer 2 and it's voice morph,lag on a prim,group limit increases,display names..etc etc...and put it towards making SL work, this would be a fantastic place by now. Viewer 1.xx and the now Phoenix based on it, was and is simple elegance. I will never switch to the fail viewer 2 and no amount of marketing will change that. Display names, children on the grid, facebook links....SL has lost its way..and its identity.

Second Life is an immersive, pluralistic, international, New World virtual country. As such, it is 10 years ahead of the market. Think Windows 3.0 or Netscape Navigator or even cellphones. All were considered niche products when they first came out. Because Linden Lab cannot grasp this concept, the company has been trying to convert Second Life into a 3D Facebook, a virtual Disneyland, a corporate conferencing system, a virtual schoolroom and now a teen chatroom. All attempts to turn an apple into an orange have failed. The apple is now starting to rot. Rod this is the core problem that SL has suffered from as far back as I have been around. LL never understood that they were already successful, that they already won and beat out all competition. If you can understand this, if you can talk to early residents about the SL they joined, even as recently as Aug '07 when I created my first avi, you will find that SL was the future and over the years that future has been whittled away until most of us are leaving. It's sad; I found a place that was the embodiment of all the wonderful possibilities I wished the RL could be. Everywhere I went, people were being who and what they wanted and no one gave each other a hard time about it. I often commented how I wished the RL was more like SL. But now I see the RL is encroaching on SL, the "moral majority" (vocal minority more like it) has threatened LL, the corporate clients have expressed their fear of a wild west environment not understanding the vast potential of representing themselves in it. Not to sell product or host virtual conferences (yet another losing idea from the brain trust that is LL) but in simply getting to know the customer, being more accessible. I am more likely to buy products form a company I can gain a personal connection to. And that is what SL is all about. Personal connections in a way that is not facebook, not chat, not the Sims. SL is a vital, real community of people interacting through avatars in a virtual world of their own creation. I will miss SL when it goes through its final sanitization and becomes just another MMORPG to be sold to the highest bidder. But by then I’ll have moved to another GRID and the money I would have been paying to LL will go elsewhere. Rod, I hope you will shake up LL, teach them that customer service is important and restore SL to its glory days. Sure you will hear some who will say that SL is finally a wonderful place for the family, but the reality is, 99% of the people who came here don’t want a place for the family. We want our adult world and we are leaving because that is what LL is taking away. We want what was, not what is. Oh and for crying out loud, I don’t want to have to buy a $5,000 gaming PC just to be in SL, let’s kill the over the top reflective water and dial the graphics back to say 2008. I remember the days of TPing to a sim and seeing it all appear on my screen in one or two seconds, not bloody minutes. Shoppers don’t want to have to stand in the landing zone waiting for the building and venders to rez, they want to get in, shop, and move on. May I suggest you get a 4 year old PC running Windows XP pro and log into SL. If you can move about without lagging every 5 seconds, if you can see all the sim as far as the draw distance can be set within seconds of landing, then SL is fine, if not, then you will know what half the world is experiencing on their older PC’s which they can’t afford to update yet. Remember your customers are not just here in the US, but also in the favelas of Brazil, the small towns of the Czech Republic, and the islands of the Philippians. I really don’t want to lose those people, they enrich my life in both ‘verses. All my best to you and with that my hopes for the future of SL. Honestly I don't want to leave, please don't push me out the door. Amen to all of that. And kids on the grid will destroy SL. It's already segregated. People have already turtled and found their own private place and put up walls. This decision to allow kiddies will finish SL off. Just wait.I know several people who REFUSE to answer ANY IM from any person they do not know to be a verified account/adult adn who refuse to ever go to PG land. TEENS ARE HERE NOW AS ALL NEW ACCOUNTS GO TO THE MAIN GRID.. I think new CEO or not, it will be bad business as usual from LL. Too much damage has been done.

Basic members. 80% of that population are alts for accounts that already exist as paying or unpaying members. The fasted and esiest way to get rid of them is to not allow a basic member to have retained inventory or rez an object anywhere but an SL sanbox. No inventory, lower storage demand on the servers. No ability to rez anywhere and there is less debris scattered all across the grid and malicious scripted objects that take down sims drop by 90%. The simple truth is, and SL can verify this, if you are not a paying account with 30 days of coming here, you never will be. --posted by galileo M That attitude sir is the biggest danger to the survival of Second Life...more than any other..and it's flat out WRONG on all counts. Rod I hope you don't listen to people like this.

Welcome. One thing I hope you will do in your explorations is FLY AN AEROPLANE. Do some high speed descending turns at altitude and then pull the nose up slowly...and feel yourself suddenly sucked under the sea (or into outer space) as the server loses your vehicle and avatar. You will learn first hand about the hoplessness of sim crossings, lag, the mess that mainland is, and the other limitations of vehicle use in SL, which will also illuminate the basic things that are broken. FIX THE GRID. MAKE IT WORK. Nobody asked for mesh, viewer 2, media on a prim, voice morphing, new marketplace...we do NOT want more REGRESSIVE features...but they were forced upon us. You have no idea how many will leave SL if the Viewer 2 UI becomes mandatory. Stop that train now before it crashes! And kids on the grid....my my what a tangled web LL has woven for you...so many things have been Broken before you arrived.... SL's future is in danger. Don't believe the corporate hype they feed you. I hope you see that. I hope you save it. I hope you take a lesson from the airlines. Present customers are more important than new ones. Losing them has a much more negative affect than gaining new ones. Keeping old ones costs LESS than finding new ones. Good luck with it.

Alexios Donardson wrote: does anyone have any clue when the 1.23.5 viewer be removed from the viewers directory and thus LL will disable logins with 1.23.5? i think viewer 2.xx is very stable and better than some early releases and much better than viewer 1.xx. LOL!!! I won't be using V2 or any TPV based on it's UI. If there are no 1.23 based UIs as TPVs, I will leave...not that anyone here gives a fook..seems that day is approaching quickly..enjoy your silly bells and whistles while SL dies a slow death with display names, lag on a prim, IP Addresss sniffing HUDS, automatic bannning devices that ban innocent people as bots/alts/copybots, vast paranoia about everything and everyone, voice morphing and legal children on the grid.

the Most stupid idea ever...the end of SL It very well may be the end of SL as you said. What kind of fun can adults now have when they are afraid to speak to anyone who IMs them? SL will become further compartmentalised and people will further isolate themselves. This will destroy the grid. Yes, there are teens here now I speculate that have bypassed the rules; however, these teens do not present the legal risk to adults that the professed and legally present teens will. It's over, unless you enjoy living locked in a cave on your own sim and never speaking to anyone new unless they are standing next to you. Suspicion and paranoia, already way out of hand, will only increase exponentially. It is also the death knell for all PG sims and any business in those sims because adults will stop going there.