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Join the Discussion on SL Enterprise

by Honored Resident Blue Linden on ‎11-04-2009 09:06 AM

Talk with us about the news of SL Enterprise, the behind-the-firewall solution for Second Life.

by Recognized Resident Segun Arriaga
on ‎11-05-2009 03:56 AM

I think there are advantages from either side of the coin and really it will come down to total cost of ownership and value.  The LL Enterprise solution really isn't bad value for business at all if you're deploying at a base license cost of around £45 or $78 per user (based on the concurrency recommendations 700 max) of course if you deploy to a wider user base for staggered use this decreases quite considerably to a level that's comparable with other workgroup and collaboration tools, even email servers.  If, for instance, you were using the solution to replace just one annual physical meeting/conference within an organisation that has a disparate geography it could easily pay for itself and make a healthy cut to your overheads first time out when you consider costs of moving people around in the physical space.

The open source solution is of course another option and if you can use it pretty much out of the box or with a little tinkering the costs would reduce somewhat, to put together a similar offering in terms of the Lab's product performance you would be looking at around £10-15k ($15k-$25k) of hardware plus any required infrastructure updates for bandwidth and of course bandwidth to service remote users which could cost another £10-15k ($15k-$25k), more depending how bigger pipe you have and then of course any initial tweaks etc. to the code, development to put in place monitoring etc.  In terms of reliability you're still going to be depending on your own IS&T resources and your network provider if you want guaranteed levels of service/high availability etc.  It all comes down to what you want to achieve and how much of headache it will be once you roll it out.  One thing I can see is the possibility of third parties offering the platform as an outsourced resource for organisations that would use it ad-hoc rather than as a permanent presence.  Again there are third parties who offer that with Open Sim right now as well as Linden Labs.

*Note - Above rough costs are based on readily available enterprise grade hardware (Dell in this instance) but exclude ongoing maintenance contracts etc. this is to draw a reasonable comparison with the LL offering and is based upon what an enterprise level customer would expect/accept.

by Honored Resident Sharie Criss
on ‎11-05-2009 04:18 AM

Does Enterprise offer integration with enterprise messaging systems (XMPP, AKA Jabber?) Unless the answer is yes, it's not ready.

by Honored Resident Sharie Criss
on ‎11-05-2009 04:37 AM

In case you haven't noticed, opensim has a long way to go to match the functionality of SL. Case in point, check the LSL status page on Opensim's web site. You will see that it is just a little over half way there. Don't expect it to be complete even by the end of next year at this rate. I'm not dissing Opensim, it's just a fact. If you want a private version of SL there is only one solution that matches the feature set of REAL SL, and that is LL's new Enterprise product.

That said, I wonder how many enterprise users will upgrade to the Emerald viewer for a MUCH better in-world experience.... LL is way behind the alternative open source viewers at this point, being more concerned about adult content limits than performance or usability.

by Recognized Resident Segun Arriaga
on ‎11-05-2009 05:29 AM

I'd be curious to know that too Sharie, along with integration options for existing IP Telephony.  Would like to see more details of the web services and available APIs in the data sheets, though obviously this is still a beta, not entirely sure XMPP absence out of the box would be a show stopper though, would certainly be advantageous to be able to implement some form of unified messaging/presence/voip integration though, I think that would benefit the SL client as a whole which is where it should most likely sit as a component.

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 05:47 AM

Sitearm.Madonna wrote:

1. content creators behind the firewall - these would be employees or contracts of the enterprise who bought SLE - and usually they sign contracts saying the enterprise owns any of their work done on their premises - so "no resale" (ka CHING!)

Maybe not, if the company has ethical policies and pays reasonable wages to their employees.

I work in RL for a company that owns 8 SL sims. I am not part of the department that owns the sims, but am in another division of that multinational corp. A while ago, I contacted that group, told them of my own experience in developing multi-sim projects in Second Life, and said that if they were interested, I could arrange for their department to contact my department to contract for use of my time to develop SL content for them. They were overjoyed to find an experienced SL builder / terraformer / LSL Scripter who already worked for the company, and who was interested in their SL project. And my own department was willing to allow part of my time to be scheduled to assist this other group, as long as company policies and procedures were followed..

Then came the barrier. Company policy says that you can't hire a company employee as an independent contractor to do work for the company, in any endeavor that resembles their normal work. That is called conflict of interest. Any work done for the company has to be set up as a regular work assignment, or as an interdepartmental work order, where they pay the department that the employee actually works for at a rate that covers the employee's wages and benefits, and usually a small profit for the employee's department.

Now, consider this situation: You can hire an SL Solutions Provider whose Real-World typist does NOT work for your corporation, at whatever rate is agreeable to both parties. At typical SL pay scales, that is far less than minimum wage in most developed nations. OR, you can hire a talented existing employee, and pay them their normal full-scale wages and benefits, which are probably FAR higher cost!

Which would you hire?

The department I contacted loved my work in-world. But after they got the info on what it would take to LEGALLY arrange for me to do the work, they never took it further.

It looks to me like the one thing most Corporate clients are most likely to do is to NOT use their own employees to develop content, but instead to hire that out to comparatively cheap labor among the Solutions Providers.

by Honored Resident Seven Okelli
on ‎11-05-2009 05:51 AM

Will the Enterprise users be limited to using only the avatars you've shown?

by New Resident Jessica Qin
on ‎11-05-2009 06:46 AM
I heard from various people that this enterprise solution has features residents have wanted for a long time such as text on prim.

Hi Ann -- contrary to what you may have heard, no, SLE doesn't provide any extra API goodies like text on a prim. Frankly, from working with LL on the SLE alpha and beta, it's pretty obvious to me that they are doing their very best to avoid server/API forks. Yes, there's a web-based admin interface that gives the extra function you'd expect to need for sysadmin activities. But from a user/builder/scripter standpoint, it's *exactly* the same as maingrid Second Life.

(except maybe a bit less laggy than maingrid SL -- we've had 80+ people in a single region with no appreciable lag)

by New Resident Jessica Qin
on ‎11-05-2009 07:02 AM

Ceera, I think it probably depends on the company involved. My own experience in building large (8 and 16 region) SL projects for my company has been that it's very difficult to hire external contractors. And so we tend to rely upon volunteers and / or hiring designers / developers within the company. No doubt it helps that I work for a very large company that has actual designers on the payroll, and that also has a large and active Virtual Universe Community of volunteers.

Also, my company has trouble getting past anonymity: our beancounters have issues with cutting checks to pseudonymous people who don't have SSNs. And there are a surprising number of really good builders in SL who don't want to go public.

I'm not disagreeing with you -- just saying that every corp will have it's own story in this regard.

I think it would be very nice if LL managed to put together some kind of "iTunes App-Store" model that allowed developers and content creators to sell to the SLE marketplace, perhaps negating a lot of the red tape that you and I have seen.

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 07:04 AM

Before the announcement, I posted several serious questions about the product. Some were answered, most were not. Here's those questions again, and my recap on what we know so far. :

1: What will it cost? What is included in that cost, and what is not included but is required? If there are tiered fees based on any factor, such as number of sims supported, number of residents supported, tens of thousands of assets supported, number of processors per server, what are those tier levels?

OK, we know it is $55K USD for an 8-sim setup that consists of an SL sim server and a Voice server, both 1u rack-mounted appliances, at 8-cores per server. And we know it is completely NOT expandable. You can't spend twice that, buy two sets, and make a 16 sim continent. We know they are claiming it supports a full 100 avatars per sim, which any existing SL user will tell you is a gross exaggeration, since much more than 40 becomes a lagfest in most realistic settings. So call this point mostly answered.

Are their any tiered fees at all? Has anyone ever tested this at full load, 8 sims and 800 users? What was lag like? How do these servers compare to the 4-core Class 5 servers that only support 4 normal SL Sims? What are the actual server specs?

2: What is the minimum setup (how many sims does that provide, and what other servers), and what hardware does it require to run it?

Also generally answered. Minimum and maximum setup are one and the same, an 8-sim, 2-server stand-alone setup, non-expandable.

Not answered - What are the server specs? Operating System? CPU speed? Hard Disk Capacity? Sewrver manufacturer?

3: Does it include a separate behind-your-firewall asset server and a separate login server? Or does the package include Linden Lab managing some portion of the required infrastructure?

Very vague here. Nowhere in the announced materials were the words "asset server" or "login server" used. Supposedly the second server is ONLY a Voice server? An 8-core server just to handle Voice? Then where are the asset and login servers living? What are their capacity limits? We know this function resides in the setup for each stand-alone grid, and doesn't tie back to LL, but where is it?

4: Will there be ways to migrate existing main grid accounts from the main grid to these behind-the-firewall grids and back again? With any portion of our inventory other than a Ruthed avatar? Or will the people on these grids need to set up completely new accounts and inventory for that grid?

Generally answered. Accounts: NO, Content: Only if you own all the IP rights or have a written agreement from the person who does own all the IP rights. In general, I think they will require all-new content, since most existing SL content uses elements created by multiple creators, and not licensed for export to other grids. (Example, a chair made by one user, with textures by someone else, and animations by someone else, and scripts that may well be under the GNU Public License...)

5: Will there be a way to identify and export specific items that you created, from the main grid to these behind-the-firewall grids? For example if, as a content creator, I already have business-appropriate clothes, or furniture, or buildings, or textures that I created and which I want to sell to these grids?

Answered: Yes, via the Enterprise Marketplace next year, if you are a Gold Solution Provider. Later, maybe, for a regular Solutions Provider. Much later, tentatively, for other content providers?

6: How would a Solutions Provider or Content Creator be able to contact the owners of these behind-the-firewall grids, to contract for work to create sims or content?

Not answered. Once the Enterprise Marketplace opens, Gold Solutions Providers apparently can place content there, but apparently with ZERO control as to which SLE grids can buy the content? And I guess all purchased will have to be in US Dollars, since those other grids DO NOT HAVE MICROCURRENCY THAT CAN BE CASHED OUT. Oh, they have L$, and Lindex. But it's Play Money, like on the Teen Grid? No way for us to know who may have work for us in-world on their own grids, unless they seek us out via the Solution Provider's Directory or via other means?

7: Once you buy the package, will there be annual fees to license continued use of the environment? Will those fees be tiered in anyway?

Not answered at all.


What if the Corp already has plenty of high-end server hardware laying idle. Can they get just the software, if they have suitable hardware already to run it on. Or superior hardware?

What do you mean by "Starting at $55K US", when there is no expandability in this offering? Or will the post-Beta version be expandable, with tiered fees for expansion and adding new servers?

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 07:13 AM

Jessica? In that actual use situation with 80 people in an SLE sim, how sparsely was the sim set up in terms of prims, scripts, and the like?

From what I have seen, the provided sims use an absolute bare-bones minimum number of prime, sparing very little even for landscaping. I doubt most of them even use more than 1,000 to 2000 prims for the whole sim. And the ten stock avatars look very plain, and obviously wouldn't have laggy prim hair or bling or scripted attachments.

Were any load tests run with avatars weraing complex prim hair? Or with several scripted things in the area, like multimedia systems and presentations systems and whiteboards? Or with the sim loaded down with 70% or more of its prim capacity in use? With graphics settings and draw distance maxxed?

I can get pretty great performance in an isolated Class 5 sim, with only 1000 prims for structures and furnishings, almost no scripts, and a batch of Ruth avatars, all running minimal graphics settings and draw distances.

What were your load test situations like? Minimal? Or more like typical SL users?

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 07:22 AM

Jessica Qin said: "Also, my company has trouble getting past anonymity: our beancounters have issues with cutting checks to pseudonymous people who don't have SSNs. And there are a surprising number of really good builders in SL who don't want to go public."

True, to some degree. But most will be happy to privately provide that information to a paying client. I certainly did when I submitted bids for Rutgers University, or for University of Houston. Tax forms and all. Just like when being employed by any other real-world business as a contractor.

Yet at the same time, my in-world presence and my website for my business efforts remains anonymous. That personal information is provided on a need-to-know basis. Someone paying me $1.25 US for a sarong or $30 US to build a custom house in SL probably has very little need to know my real details. Some corp contracting for $3,000 USD or more for a multi-sim project certainly has a right to the legal information needed to issue the checks and obey the tax laws.

by Member Meade Paravane
on ‎11-05-2009 07:38 AM

/me doesn't see anything about maintenance or other monthly costs. Is that because there aren't any??

A US$55k starting point puts this outside the possibity of even bringing it to my company. Hopefully LL will have lower end product offerings in the future.

Best of luck with it, LL!

by Member Zena Juran
on ‎11-05-2009 07:56 AM

As far as transferring ip/content from the Main Grid to Enterprise:

1. Is there a software switch preventing this from occurring?

2. Requires proprietary software for the transfer?

3. Any viewer with Import/Export capabilities and Second Inventory should work fine?

by Member Darren Oates
on ‎11-05-2009 08:22 AM

Intresting chapter in second lifes journey of expansion I am sure that the lab carnt discolse everything on this new product as some things have to stay behined closed doors in any biusness venture especially new products until a time they can be .  I really do think that new package will be more of a letter and telephone call type sale where these buyers expect more of personal introduction to this service infact the best approch would be to contact the lab directly by phone if you need more info blogs tend to get muddled when info is involve but knowing these lab guys they will try to blog the full info if they can even down to what colour the lights are that flash on the servers.

by Member Kathmandu Gilman
on ‎11-05-2009 08:23 AM

Buwah? $55k? Good luck with that. Now, if this "toy" could actually import Solidworks objects or other CAD formats then maybe. Being able to walk around and kick the virtual tires of a product and seeing it in operation might very well have a $55k value but the reality of it is this, companies are losing vast amounts of work time already due to distractions inherent to computers and the internet. Imagine a virtual world setting and the time required for the typical luddite cubical drone to figure out how to move in the game and you see dollars flowing out the window similar to a fire hose.

by Member Meade Paravane
on ‎11-05-2009 09:08 AM 8-sim setup that consists of an SL sim server and a Voice server, both 1u rack-mounted appliances, at 8-cores per server. And we know it is completely NOT expandable...

Really? We know that the max config is 8 regions?

Personally, as I've sorta said already, I'm surprised (and a bit disapointed) that they're talking about something that supports 800 people online at once. Unless they're just trying to manage the rollout to only large enterprises (ie: not sell in volume)  this seems like serious overkill. How many companies have that many people that would both be more productive in SL and be online at the same time? I'd think that shooting for something that can get 100 online at once would be a much sweeter spot to start at. 50 would be even better but I think that's below the point where LLs margins would suck...

by Member Deltango Vale
on ‎11-05-2009 09:21 AM

Ceera, your post demonstrates a perfect example of what I meant when I said:

If one of the goals of SL Enterprise is to decouple the IT platform
(with its associated functions, norms and culture) from the virtual
world (with its very different functions, norms and culture)....

The motherload of talent and expertise is within Second Life itself, yet there are 26 ways to Sunday why large organizations won't or can't connect to that talent and expertise. Paralytic megabureaucracy and free-flowing micro-markets - like cats and rabbits - do not mix.

by Advisor Medhue Simoni
on ‎11-05-2009 09:26 AM

Haha, rofl, now I get it. Why the new marketplace. I sooo understand now. Don't know why I wasn't thinking that way. Thanks every1 for all the clues. Sorry, I'll stay out of the SP. I like my freedom. It is sad that things will work this way tho. Sad that people who compete in the freemarket and have proven they are the best will never be part of this. Kinda sad for the SLE's too.

Also, large corporations steal IP all the time, and they have the lawyers to do it. Who is to say that 1 of these SLE will not go right out and copy all of our stuff. LL has not said a word about the latest content stealing, so why would we expect LL to protect us from large corporations.

by New Resident Jessica Qin
on ‎11-05-2009 09:55 AM

Ceera, I'm not sure I can answer all of your questions, but in the two specific large (80+ attendees) events I'm thinking of, one was in a region that had >3K prims, the other was in a region that had >8K prims. Both regions were highly developed and landscaped. I didn't notice any difference in performance between the two regions. Many of the AVs attending were based on the default SLE male/female AV, but these aren't the same as the maingrid "Ruth" default -- they have prim hair, for instance. I'd guess at least 50-60% of the participants performed some kind of customization on their AV, such as switching clothing, hair (LL provides a number of prim hair styles)(sorry, I don't know the hair prim counts offhand), or body shape. Very few AVs had scripted attachments. The regions at large contained a moderate number of running scripts of various kinds.

Lag can be a highly subjective thing, and I do not know the specifics of everyone's graphics settings. There were a wide range of different machines in use; as you'd expect, people with older, less powerful machines didn't get the performance of someone with a shiny new system (basically the same situation as on maingrid SL). Personally, I was running on a two year old T61 notebook, fullscreen 1920x1200, drawdistance 512 and all other settings maxed out, and I didn't suffer any lag issues. No, I don't check my FPS rates, sorry. But I've been in many crowds on maingrid SL, I know how it feels to walk through "soup" -- I didn't encounter any "soup" during these events.

All that said -- these events weren't "minimal" events set up to try to maximize performance. They weren't set up to mimic maingrid SL, either.

While I'm writing this, I'd like to comment on the stability of the system, which is very impressive: in the almost 9 months I've been using SLE, I've *never* suffered a region crash.

by Member Rachel Darling
on ‎11-05-2009 10:44 AM
(recall the real reason LL had to ban real currency gambling was because of the current, controversial laws about internet gambling in the United States and because LL's servers run on US land)

Agreed that the OP had a brilliant question there. Re: the above, I believe the most relevant laws had to do with the funding of internet gambling accounts, which was what was recently legislated as being illegal. LL also had the issues of servers being located on US territory, but ultimately even if they set up in the Bahamas or on tribal land, if you have to buy Lindens in order to "gamble" you'd still have to buy them from LL, which would put them in shaky territory (no pun intended.) Though since "lindens" are not an official currency and I'm sure the court case would go on for some time while the judges tried to figure out all the implications of virtual money, the cost of defending themselves is not something any corporation is going to set themselves up for.

So just to recap, you'd not only have to set up your servers on your tribal land, but you'd also have to enable your own in-world currency, as well as tie in with some of the clever and most-likely-still-illegal means of funding that virtual currency.

by Member MadamG Zagato
on ‎11-05-2009 10:56 AM

I have not "read between the lines" here.  Overall this looks good for large scale businesses.  Reading, it looks like businesses will be able to use the Second Life platform in their own work environments without being "in Second Life".  Am I correct?  That sounds awesome!  What's the problem?  They will be disconnected from Linden servers right?  How does this affect us and the way we live our second lives and operate our in-world businesses?

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 10:57 AM

RE Meade:

Yes, it's limited to a max of 8 sims per SLE Grid. This is from the FAQ:

How many people can be in the Second Life Enterprise workspace at the same time?

As an 8-cluster system, the SL Enterprise Beta supports up to 800 concurrent users with an optimal maximum of 700 concurrent users. The best rule of thumb for bandwidth planning is 100 Kb/s per concurrent user.

Can I connect SL Enterprise systems together to create one unified virtual world?

Although this is not possible today, this capability is in our road map for future development.

by Member Rachel Darling
on ‎11-05-2009 10:58 AM

Thanks Blue however your price point is way too high. I work for an organisation that deals with waste and environmental issues and runs training courses for individuals and public/private organisations. This would have been an ideal training medium for us, opening up distance learning possibilities.

But that price point is way to high, we are a registered UK charity and just dont have those funds available. I suspect this is aimed squarely at large corporates and the smaller organisations have been ignored.

I was waiting to see what the pricing of this would be however we'll now investigate using Opensim as an alternative, its free, I have a spare machine to install it on and I can import the content I built in SL directly to it. It wont have the bells and whistles you crow about in SL Enterprise and wont look as slick but as an IT manager with a shrinking  budget I have to live within my means.

As an environmental demonstration platform SL Enterprise would be superb, however I'd rethink the positioning of your price point to take into account the SME's of this world. (RL that is lol)

I suspect that the initial pricepoint is based on the level of interest from a certain set of corporations that the Lab has been in discussion with, who can afford this price point for a secure and complete solution. In addition, it takes into account that the model is still in its early stages. As more "Gold Solution Providers" (as well as the Lab) smooth out the model and expand what can be offered, you'll see tiered-price solution packages become available that will be more affordable for smaller organizations. This is simply the first iteration of the solutions that can be provided, and will fund the next goal of making the offerings repeatable and templated. The current targeted corporate clients will be looking for completely customized solutions and integrations, and that will trickle down to being able to template more standard offerings for smaller clients.

by Member MadamG Zagato
on ‎11-05-2009 11:13 AM

Deltango.Vale wrote:

  • 3. Creeping Disneyfication

Hey, Disneyfication is not always a bad thing.  Especially for those of us with small kids who would LOVE to explore around SL and build stuff.  (I have a 10 year old who loves to hover over my shoulder sometimes while I am scripting and is fascinated with LSL.)  But he can't play yet, neither can his little brother or sister.  He'll just have to keep soaking it in until he's old enough.  I WISH there were a "Disneyfied" grid for very young ones who have an interest in SL!  I would pay for access for my little ones.


by Member Rachel Darling
on ‎11-05-2009 11:14 AM
What were your load test situations like? Minimal? Or more like typical SL users?

Valid points, Ceera, about performance. But I have to believe that one of the core competencies for a successful "gold solution provider" would be that they have some expertise in managing and maximizing sim performance vis a vis the content they create or subcontract. It would be one of the reasons why LL would want to limit the service provider offerings that are being presented to their big corporate customers. The last thing you want is to sell them a 55k solution and have it borked or abandoned because the customer ends up implementing content that you see on typical SL avatars and sims.

The fact is that there are a lot of talented creators out there, but a lot of them are "self-educated," and technological or performance concerns have not been a part of their training or focus. Such people typically create and implement what they are technologically allowed to create...ergo, 1024x1024 textures when a 128x128 texture would have done just fine, etc.

by Honored Resident Bristle Chesnokov
on ‎11-05-2009 11:38 AM

a department manager cannot sign off more than $10,000 - $15,000 without getting involve with more paperwork and their budget. and some people will look at stuff and then get busy with their real job so the server sits there collecting dust.

but what about "InsideSL". its not the individual applications, but the stuff that that makes it work. the problem is the way SL was designed, they cant go backwards, not only forwards.  i saw that with the proposal open source server. and i thought that what 2.0 was about.

but InsideSL there could be a relatively cheap version that can handle up to 6 people.  that doesnt sound a lot but the SL servers now average about 3 people per server.  from there, it can be enlarge. hypergrid for you friends (with their servers), more regions, more whatever.  and a full blown enterprise level for 55k or 550k. it added services, more capablities.

then LL can have a "dealer version" of the gold or whatever vendors, but other people would be free to do services to anyone anywhere as long as they follow the rules, protocol-wise. and they dont have to use lindens.  paypal works nicely.


i didnt mean to reply to a person

Message was edited by: Bristle Chesnokov

by Member Prokofy Neva
on ‎11-05-2009 02:13 PM

I just hope at least a few of these new virtual offices will want a virtual office cat     errr...  that is, once I am allowed to offer it to them I guess....

just joking there, but this looks like another really great business product.

_________________________________________________________________________________ "The LOLO Pet Shop" Providing SL Solutions: Virtual Animals, Simulated Weather, & More!

*Peeks in*.

This sure looks ike an advertisement to me.

Where's Blue Linden? Where's Maggie Darwin?

by Honored Resident Glenn Linden
on ‎11-05-2009 03:07 PM

The fee is a yearly license that includes hardware, installation and support. There are no monthly fees.

by Honored Resident Glenn Linden
on ‎11-05-2009 03:28 PM

Right now, only full regions and their content can be transferred from Second Life to SL Enterprise.  So the answer is, you take a region and populate it with your content.  Content is transferred to SLEnterprise in a special package form that can be read by the administrative application and uploaded into SLE.  SLEnterprise purchasers sign a license agreement that prohibits them from distributing or selling content - including to SL - that has been downloaded, modified, or created on their SLEnterprise installation.

by Honored Resident Danball Tureaud
on ‎11-05-2009 03:57 PM

Hmm, really?  Sounds like you want the computer to be the babysitter for your kids.  In my opinion, no one under 13 should be on Second Life, and at that, they MUST be on the Teen Grid until they are 18.

I've heard of rumors about merging the Teen Grid with the Adult Grid, and the new Adult continent and moving all the adult stuff over there is because of this, as well as this post might have something to do with it.

by Member Nany Kayo
on ‎11-05-2009 04:11 PM

Sitearm, I don't have a clear use case in mind, but I do have questions about how profits are accounted for in Second Life.  I would expect annual profits exceeding US$10,000 to attract the attention of the IRS. Any business in Second Life that pays full time salaries will be handling more money than that.  But I still have never heard a clear explanation of how the money is accounted for in SL, or how shadow economies that could be used for money laundering in SL are controlled.  I am concerned that when the IRS finally does start looking closely at the Linden Exchange, it will suddenly start imposing penalties in a manner that may not be fair or reasonable at all.  My inclination would be to try to avoid that proactively by having close control of my own bookkeeping.

by Advisor Ann Otoole
on ‎11-05-2009 04:27 PM

Nany.Kayo wrote:

... I would expect annual profits exceeding US$10,000 to attract the attention of the IRS. ...

The Bank Secrecy Act of 1970 (or BSA, or otherwise known as the
Currency and Foreign Transactions Reporting Act) requires U.S.A.
financial institutions to assist U.S. government agencies to detect and
prevent money laundering. Specifically, the act requires financial
institutions to keep records of cash purchases of negotiable
instruments, file reports of cash transactions exceeding $10,000 (daily
aggregate amount), and to report suspicious activity that might signify
money laundering, tax evasion, or other criminal activities. It was
passed by the Congress of the United States in 1970. The BSA is
sometimes referred to as an "anti-money laundering" law ("AML") or
jointly as “BSA/AML”. Several anti-money laundering acts, including
provisions in title III of the USA PATRIOT Act, have been enacted up to
the present to amend the BSA. (See 31 USC 5311-5330 and 31 CFR 103.)

The $10,000 number that gets bounced around comes from there.

Most people don't even know of that government entity. Call it the NSA of the banking and finance sector if you like because that would pretty much describe the scope. Indications are the FBI doesn't like the idea of people using currency anymore and wants all financial transactions performed electronically so apparently the granularity of the surveillance has dropped down to *all* monetary transactions.

As for the IRS they care about one penny of profit. I don't recall hearing anyone complaining about having to file a 1099 or any other form with Linden Lab so Linden Lab should not have to file any reports.

Paypal on the other hand...

PayPal will be required to report to the IRS the total payment volume received by PayPal customers in the U.S. who:

  1. receive more than $20,000 in payment volume in a single year; and
  2. receive more than 200 payments in a single year.

Most likely that $20,000 number has been dropped to $10,000 by now.

by Honored Resident Dillon Beerbaum
on ‎11-05-2009 05:43 PM

And yet again, LL simply does everything wrong.

As per usual.

I totally understand where they're going with this. I do. But honestly, it's such an esoteric, risky product that a lot of "professionals" would look down the extent that I only see A ) A few companies utilizing this, and good for them and B ) The price turning away companies/organizations with a small/sprouting interest. I don't see anyone making the purchase if their organization isn't 100% commited to something most unenlightened people would glance at and call a "stupid videogame" or a novelty.

If it works, it won't be utilizted to the extent LL wants, and it definitely won't be utilized by a large number of parties.

And this isn't "I-can't-have-it-anger". I love what they're trying to do. I just don't think it'll work as well as it deserves to

by Member Toysoldier Thor
on ‎11-05-2009 06:06 PM

SL Enterprise...

From what I have read on what it is and how it might work and the market niche they feel SLE will fill, I think its a cool tool but a completely micro-niche solution that will have VERY limited success in the enterprise space.  And being that I am a past employee of one of the interested corporate customers that LL has name-dropped as well as have worked and am working in the IT Space at a solution development level where we have to look at new ideas to solve business demands - like collaboration...  I think LL might have rose-colored glasses on if they think SLE will be anything more than a niche component of their overall revenue stream.  If that is all they see this will end up becoming when it "grows up" - then COOL.

LL is basically going after the corporate collaboration space.  This is a VERY VERY hard space for any solution provider to gain any significant marketshare in, much less a solution like SLE.  Why?

  1. Lets face it, SL is currently perceived to be cartoon-ware and an entertainment / hobby solution to most in the real world.  Trying to sell the SL world / environment to most corporate decision-makers for anything other than a SMALL and possible creative department of a large enterprise account would have this HUGEEEEE stigma to overcome.  LL will have trouble getting through the FRONT DOOR / wont be taken serious by most enterprise accounts.
  2. If SLE is just SL PRIVATE then I believe SLE is missing key critical components that are must haves or critical "want to haves" by larger customers looking for serious collaboration.  i.e. if a gang of 20 employs get together in a SL virtual room - and they want to work on a Microsoft Powerpoint or visio or Wordstar or a corporate vertical application together.  HOW?  Video collaboration?  How about high-availability (i.e. what if that server crashes)? Just a few quick ones I can think of.
  3. SLE @ $55K/year is not only competing againt less sexy but much more business functional ENTERPRISE scaled solutions, they are also competing against low cost and even FREEWARE collaboration solutions - is just one of dozens i can think even our international company uses it as a collaboration solution among many.  Why? its free and effective and easy to work with.  I can say from experience that $55K/year would be hard to justify for sexy but limited business function solution compared to all the free alternatives.
  4. So... lets talk about the price vs its scale.  $55K/year for a solution that can only support 800 concurrent users?  I dont know the current number but IBM had about 360,000 employees world-wide.  So at least for IBM... I am pretty sure the only interest in SLE at IBM is coming from some very small and elite group within IBM (likely for the rare free thinker group in IBM that are spoiled and can play with new ideas - a VERY small portion of IBM).  I would fall over if SLE became even a departmental solution at a company like IBM.  I am also pretty certain that the other names that LL dropped on this announcement that likely wow'ed many of you are also of interest by a VERY small niche of those organizations as well.  A cool toy for a few in these organizations.  How does LL see SLE supporting the larger population of these corporations - in the 10s or 100s of thousands of employees?  I am laughing as I think of this...a large group of staff get together and the SIM LAG that we all in SL enjoy daily hits this business meeting where the CEO of the company shows up.  The CEO local SHOUTS to the crowd... please take off your laggin corporate suits so that we can reduce the lag in this room!!
  5. Now... LL and they historically proven poor customer service, poorly QA's product releases, flip-flopping on policy changes.  LL.... unlike us poor residents in SL that have to suffer with LL's immature business practices, customer service, and weak product development,  Enterprise customers wont tolerate this immaturity and "experimenting on the customer" that us residents must live with.  When I think of LL entering into the corporate solutions space - I am visualizing DEER IN HEADLIGHTS.  From all I have seen, experienced, observed on LL practices... I believe LL doesnt even know what they dont know when entering this space.  They are clearly the Industry leader in personal/hobby/gaming Virtual World solutions where their mistakes are taken by the residents.... but in this space where they are only the latest new pretty-boy collaboration entrant in a TOUGH corporate market... DEER IN HEADLIGHTS.
  6. So.... if SLE is too under-functional, too cartoonish, too under-service oriented, and too small scale for the large enterprise.  Then what about the much much larger market of SME (Small to Medium Entities)?  Well, by their sheer number, they might get SOME traction here - specially since the approval process to accept new cool technologies might be more lenient and they employee populations are closer to the limitations of SLE.  BUT, then SLE will run into the much tighter budgets of these SME and at $55K/year... I suspect the low cost / freeware solution of collaboration will pinch SLE out of this market.

Anyway... i could go on but I think this is just a few reasons why I personally see that as COOL an idea that SLE is.... it will not be a big factor on the bottom line of LL's financials.  a cool experiment.  Some limited success.

As for all my fellow MERCHANTS that are ticked off that LL is once again going to isolate us creators from these elite SOLUTION PROVIDERS... I wouldnt be too upset since the market that these providers will be servicing in this new marketplace is going to be a marketplace with a lot of empty GOLD PROVIDER shops and Providers that are tapping your fingers on their virtual tables waiting for the IM to ring from all those enterprise customers that I suspect wont be showing up.

Just my humble opinions.

by Honored Resident Sindy Tsure
on ‎11-05-2009 07:32 PM
SLE @ $55K/year

I read it as US$55K initial cost then some yearly maint fee. I've read the yearly is around US$14K but haven't seen LL say that yet.

edit: err.. or is it really US$55K a year?

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-05-2009 08:10 PM

Glen Linden said:

"The fee is a yearly license that includes hardware, installation and support. There are no monthly fees."

Which fee, Glen? The $55K USD initial setup fee? Or the $14K USD fee some of us have heard about as a follow up?

Honestly, if it's $55K USD to set up and an additional $55K a year after the first year? I suspect all but the most hardcore Corp and Military users are probably going to tell you to go jump in the lake... so you can sober up and come back with a more realistic proposal.

by Member MadamG Zagato
on ‎11-05-2009 09:19 PM

Danball.Tureaud wrote:

Hmm, really?  Sounds like you want the computer to be the babysitter for your kids.  In my opinion, no one under 13 should be on Second Life, and at that, they MUST be on the Teen Grid until they are 18.

I've heard of rumors about merging the Teen Grid with the Adult Grid, and the new Adult continent and moving all the adult stuff over there is because of this, as well as this post might have something to do with it.

Hmm, how do you translate my kids would love to play SL into I want the computer to be a babysitter for my kids?  Just because someone makes a comment about their child(ren) does not open their parenting skills up for your open discussion or critisism, especially when:

  1. There is no way you could determine how often my kids play on the computer.
  2. There is no way you could determine "what I want".

So what it "sounds" like is that my kids would love to play SL.  How often more or less is something I determine. 

As for what I said, if you read you'd have noticed the words "Kiddie Grid" which was not indicative of any current grids already available.  I was making a suggestion.  Much like there are other kiddie worlds for the kids to play in, I was making a suggestion to LL.  That was the purpose of the post I made.

by Member MadamG Zagato
on ‎11-05-2009 09:49 PM

Deltango.Vale wrote:

I sympathize, but Second Life is the wrong environment. The mains reasons are:

1. Legal liability.

2. Second Life was designed and built for adults.

3. Disneyland and its virtual equivalents already exist.

'Disneyfication' means more than just creating a playground for children. It is an attitude of mind that promotes safety, security, stability, orthodoxy, authority, comfort and conformity at the expense of risk-taking, bruised-knee learning, variety, diversity, intelligence, adventure and individuality. Disneyfication is about wrapping people in cotton batten to protect them from themselves.

By contrast, Second Life is an adult entrepreneurial environment and, by definition, entrepreneurs are unorthodox risk-takers. They seek opportunities outside of the mainstream, they peer into the future and invest money, time and creativity into projects that others eschew (if they see them at all). Without entrepreneurs, there would be no content in SL. Drive out the entrepreneurs through Disneyfication and SL will stagnate and die.

I'm very much in favor of virtual worlds for kids, but Second Life is not one of them.

I disagree.  But just so you know, I am not petitioning for a Kiddie Grid.  I just don't think it would be a bad idea.  Second Life is adult in nature because the residents have made it that way.  Do you think LL marketed and encouraged sexual activities, products, or other x-rated adult related content and services on the grid?  I don't think they did.  As a matter of fact, they have been working hard to remove it from plain view as others have stated in so many words.  Second Life is becoming more and more like real life.  It's constantly merging with various aspects of the real world...slowly but surely.  It's not merging with some imaginary world where children don't exist.  SL is becoming less of an adult playground every day.  Businesses are taking notice and they are spending lots of revenue on these products that LL has made available.  If there's a market for the younger crowd do you think LL will cash in on it?  I'd say they most likely would.  But I would imagine that it would be something completely separate of the main grids/private islands.

The thing is, they could never launch something so fragile right now because there is still so much adult content in the foreground.  When you think of all the K-12 school districts that could benefit from something like SL, LL is missing out on a lot of revenue!  But so long as the school board members will go home upon hearing a sales pitch from LL about their SL Kiddie Grid product (lol on the name) and Google "Second Life" and create an account, log into the grid just out of curiosity and find the adult content, accusations of residents using child avatars questionably, and other issues that raise a red flag, the answer will most undoubtedly be a unanimous "No" from the school systems.

I don't believe that "Second Life is an adult entrepreneurial environment" as you say.  Second Life is and always will be "Your World. Your Imagination".  Everyone in SL is not an entrepreneur.  Everyone does not partake or even *want* to view adult content.  If this is the case by mere vote, then I can understand why LL has moved adult content to its' own area.  I don't think they intended the voice of Second Life to be the "Adult Entrepreneurs" which speak loudly across blogs, forums, and other websites boasting and cackling about BDSM, sculpted penises, and other dirty words that project on the reputation of LL.  I think most see SL as an adult grid because that has been the general consensus for years.  That's how it has been, but I think LL sees this and is pushing for a change (in the right direction) and I applaud them for doing so.

But it's because of this consensus that I don't think we'll ever see any type of Kiddie Grid LOL.  I think it would be great though if schools could afford a private product to use independently.

by Honored Resident Kwame Oh
on ‎11-06-2009 05:57 AM

Congratulations on your new venture, and hope it gets the response you are looking for.

Could you answer a  question for us please.

With regard "SL Enterprise is the most secure, content-rich, and flexible enterprise-ready virtual workplace solution available today, built on the world's leading 3D virtual world technology platform--Second Life."

The content you refer to am I right in saying will be created by Linden Lab, or will it be taken from the main grid and sold to new customers on Enterprise?

I ask this as there is a rumor going around that Linden Lab owns rights to all creations on the grid, and as such can use said content can be sold or monetized by Linden Lab in any way they see fit, and in a case like ours where there is an obvious conflict of interest between any company getting into the business of marketing London who would get the content we have created.

We would be most grateful if you could give us assurances, that no Second Life Enterprise purchaser, would  be furnished with an out of the box London, and or Iconic buildings created by Virtual-London, as we all know as we fast approach 2012 and the exciting buzz around London, not only secondlife but every business in the sphere of virtual worlds is gunning for this market.

Julius Sowu Marketing Director Virtually-Linked London

by Contributor Ceera Murakami
on ‎11-06-2009 06:41 AM

Glen Linden said:

"Right now, only full regions and their content can be transferred from Second Life to SL Enterprise.  So the answer is, you take a region and populate it with your content.  Content is transferred to SLEnterprise in a special package form that can be read by the administrative application and uploaded into SLE.  "

So, you've somehow made it impossible for them to use any of the several third-party clients that spoofs all client ID information and enables IP theft? Wonderful! How soon can that be implemented on the main grid, please? You can't do that? Then what is to prevent the client from using the readily available third party clients for SL to transfer their content into their Grid, piece by piece?

And why should the owners of a private grid NOT be able to freely move content back and forth between their grid and the main grid, IF they are the creators of all the IP involved in the content? Why only a whole sim at once? It is a virtual certanty that most of the Corporate and Military owned sims on the grid today are using at least some content that was purchased from SL Content Creators. So they can NOT pick up those sims, whole, and transfer them to their shiny new private grids? Not without first identifying every last tree, desk lamp and chair that they didn't create 100% by themselves and removing said items? Or obtaining in-writing permission to export from all involved Content Creators?

Glen Linden said:

"SLEnterprise purchasers sign a license agreement that prohibits them from distributing or selling content - including to SL - that has been downloaded, modified, or created on their SLEnterprise installation."


Glen, you're saying that they can not use their behind the firewall environment as a secure place to create and validate their own creations? That makes no sense to me at all. If a major car maker wants to produce an SL model of next years hot new car, there is no way they are going to create that on the main grid, not even on a locked down and isolated private island. But here you're saying that they also can't pony up the money for your new product, develop the model and scripts in-house, in a secure environment, and have the SL car ready for release the same day they announce the real car at the Auto Shows? Why?

I appreciate the restriction on not being able to resell what they may have obtained from someone else. As a content creator, I wouldn't want to sell a product to a Corp grid for their grid's use, and then have that product modified by them and set up for sale on the SL main grid. And that would also generally protect us from them using a third-party clients that spoofs all client ID information and enables IP theft to grab stuf on their own from other grids, and modify it in secret on their grid, and then push it back out to the main grid or other grids as their own products. But honestly, someone paying $55K US up front for this product is relatively unlikely to care about the micro-profits they might make by stealing IP from SL content creators. They may steal stuff for their own use (who would ever know, since only they have access to their own grid?). But the bad PR if they get caught selling that stuff on other grids wouldn't be worth it for a legitimate Corp that can throw that kind of money around.

by Member Deltango Vale
on ‎11-06-2009 06:46 AM

Apologies for the confusion. I have removed the word 'adult' from the relevant post. The sentence now reads: "By contrast, Second Life is an entrepreneurial environment..."

For people living outside of the United States, an 'adult' is defined as a person who has passed through puberty, has learned to relate to people and become responsible for one's decisions. An adult recognizes and accepts that people have different lifestyles, tastes and preferences and that rudeness or harassment should not be confused with sexuality. Unfortunately, the American (and generally Anglo-Saxon) usage of the term 'adult' is to equate it with 'pornography'.

Having made that correction, I refer you back to the relevant post.

by Member Sorina Garrigus
on ‎11-06-2009 07:31 AM

Disnification is a bad thing for SL in general as it translates into harsh censorship of SL and flys in the face of the spirit of SL which LL seems to be doing on its own. There is of course a teen grid but a toddler SL? I dunno its kind of a gateway drug sort of thing. SL is flooded with underage kids already since accounts were completely free not even a one time charge. That created a huge mess with the land rating system with the new adult rating, mature rating being PG now and PG being G. Just can't wait for the next muddled mess Linden Labs comes up with

by Member Sorina Garrigus
on ‎11-06-2009 07:47 AM

Can we all chip in and buy LL a newspaper or something? I would so hate to go to my CEO and say Hi sir I have a brilliant idea I know we layed off a thousand people last month we are cutting back left and right the ecomomy is on the edge of a depression but how about if we spend $55,000 so we can look at some cubes and spheres. 55k  is a joke for most companies given the benefits of the program. I can start a small business with that much money. Just use video conferencing and save 54k. Get a clue already and stop being so greedy to the point that you lose cash. Realistically after all this time sims should be able to support over 100 avatars bare minimum by now. They would be better off just using open source and do it themselves for free also.

by Member Sorina Garrigus
on ‎11-06-2009 08:11 AM

M linden apparently hasn't seen a movie in 50 years. In a nut shell heres the rating system before and after

PG: Effectively anything you might see in a Rated PG movie or below

Mature: Anything you would see in a Rated R movie or above


PG: Basically this is not PG now its G. Though they still call it PG. And should be noted PG stands for Parental guidance suggested if under the age of 13. Last I checked you had to be 18 in SL

Mature: Things like dance halls, social (not strip) clubs, art exhibits etc. basically Mature went from R plus to PG and almost G really. Sounds like a old Kevin Becon movie to me. We now have to drive outside of town to have our school dance because the preacher thinks its evil.

Adult: Extreme violence, nudity, simulated pot leafs, fake non drug depictions Basically PG13 on up when the name implies XXX

So in a PG is G but still called PG and mature is PG some aspects kinda G. Adult is R plus the old mature lower level.

Can I ask a favor of LL. Can we please cut down on the wtf momments I am not one to attack peoples intelligence but honestly a few more there will be no other options

by Member Sorina Garrigus
on ‎11-06-2009 08:13 AM

You been listening to many of the "for the betterment of the SL community" manipulations. It doesn't.

by Member Sorina Garrigus
on ‎11-06-2009 08:19 AM

This is fine for some insane company who wants to through out 55k when it could do the same on open source themselves. The price point seriously limits any use for 95% of the businesses that might consider it. Get a realistic price point so businesses will take LL seriously.

by Member Deltango Vale
on ‎11-06-2009 08:25 AM

I sympathize, but Second Life is the wrong environment. The mains reasons are:

1. Legal liability.

2. Second Life was designed and built for adults.

3. Disneyland and its virtual equivalents already exist.

'Disneyfication' means more than just creating a playground for children. It is an attitude of mind that promotes safety, security, stability, orthodoxy, authority, comfort and conformity at the expense of risk-taking, bruised-knee learning, variety, diversity, intelligence, adventure and individuality. Disneyfication is about wrapping people in cotton batten to protect them from themselves.

By contrast, Second Life is an entrepreneurial environment and, by definition, entrepreneurs are unorthodox risk-takers. They seek opportunities outside of the mainstream, they peer into the future and invest money, time and creativity into projects that others eschew (if they see them at all). Without entrepreneurs, there would be no content in SL. Drive out the entrepreneurs through Disneyfication and SL will stagnate and die.

I'm very much in favor of virtual worlds for kids, but Second Life is not one of them.

Edit: "By contrast, Second Life is an entrepreneurial environment..." replaces "By contrast, Second Life is an adult entrepreneurial environment..."

by Honored Resident Bristle Chesnokov
on ‎11-06-2009 10:05 AM

now i will argue against free servers.  as good as opensim is and the clients like hippo, they are not ready yet and maybe will never be.  it an open source project will a lot of volunteers.  but companies dont want that.  they want something will will run of out the box and when they had a problem have a telephone number with people that have answers.

so give a price of "free" with no support and "some xyz" with support, they will chose the support.  also a lot of business look to see if the vendor is going to be around next year or the following.  they do everything they can to see their investment succeed.

many years ago microsoft did it with operating system, windows 1.0 & 2.0.  at that time i had to justify why would need windows at all since there was another GUI available.  so my product planner and me had a rough way to go.  the big marketing director said 16 color text was good enough. well we manufactured all the computers in europe (Olivetti) and branded with hp and at&t in the us.  now of course, its on pc everywhere. you cant buy a linux system in the retail places.

i worked for a company that sold $6000 middleware systems.  of course, they had licenses for more, and that how they made they money.

i worked for a loral company that was forever in beta with some promises from clients including a system that had a 100 machines.  that company was rolled back into loral eventually and never made any money. their problem was simple -- they had no business plan.

so forget about "free". it is tough to do.  and forget about 55k anything.  have something that a deparment manager can sign for and have him/she appoint someone that is really into virtual stuff.  and then go on from there.

by New Resident SarahJane Maidstone
on ‎11-06-2009 10:34 AM

Second Life, Second Life release candidate and Second Life Snowglobe applications, which were developed and launched by Linden Lab are all free of all costs. So what makes Second Life Enterprise facing a large bill of US$ 55,000 for just one account on the programme.

We are all still in the worst Recession since the great depression of the 1930s, so can't you (Linden Lab) at least make the price something more affordable, like say US$ 50 or even free, like the other application names that I have mentioned?

I feel that my comment here about the very expensive licence fee for Second Life Enterprise stands well, because:-

1 - The main Second Life clients are still on back-up servers, therefore, meaning that it could take up to 5 times longer to do the basic things - such as walking on the virtual grid land, dancing in a virtual club, chatting to people from around the world etc.

2 - Too many people using the other Second Life clients choose to lag other users out, with Avatar Rendering Costs well over 1000. I (SarahJane Maidstone) have experienced a heavy round of lag in most cases at least 5 times every hour, sometimes a lot more times. Until the time when Linden Lab can re-stabilise the grid servers which are needed to sustain a huge influx of users on the mentioned programmes, then maybe we (the users) will elect to upgrade to a premium version of Second Life.

3 - There should be more advisers who can help Second Life users in the first languages of all users. Most users can't speak a word of English, so there should be at least 5 advisers to accommodate the needs of users from Sweden, Japan, France, Russia and the rest of the world.

by Honored Member Shockwave Yareach
on ‎11-06-2009 11:21 AM

Second life USED to be about "Your world, your imagination."

Today it's "Your world, your imagination * "

*except for cases of gambling, random event generation, role playing, acting scenes from Gor, inworld banks, open sexual activity even in your own home, nipples, any and all deviancies that begin with the letter K, and anything that might squick some conservative redneck senator from Kentucky -- gotta save the children after all...

It used to be build and do what you want, which is the only reason for us to be in SL to start with.  Stability?  Graphics? Lindens know not what these are.  Today LL's tune isn't for us to act out inside a video game and pay money to have a good time.  Today LL wants mindless drones who obey without question, pay their money and then do nothing with their purchases, as evidenced with the voidsim debacle (How dare we actually have a home and put out prims on "our" land, even when LL told us to do so!)  And the more LL takes Second Life and turns it into a limp version of Real Life, the less reason anyone will have to bother with SL in the first place.