Prim Bonuses and LODs

[Chic Aeon]

Some folks benefiting from extra prims are already -- well complaining is really too nice a word but I'll go with that. It definitely makes me sigh. BUT, along with the bounty which I am thrilled over comes some veiled suggestions from The Lab. Will content creators embrace those suggestions ? Time will let us know that answer.

 

I think there are a few faulty premises to the "more prims - better LODs" equation (see this video and Patch Linden if you missed it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZr6VwBDlVg , the biggest being that many folks with powerful machines and using up to LOD4 don't care at all about LODs as they see everything beautifully including some items that break apart from two meters away on LOD setting 2. Are they going to opt into buying items that are higher land impact for the good of the grid? 

Some will. Just like some people in real life buy organic, support wind power electricity and drive old cars that still get good gas mileage. Sadly I don't think the thinking of the future folks' numbers are all that high.  As content creators we have always had a choice on how we upload our models. Do we want 1 land impact beds with pillows? After all, the folks using said beds will likely not be looking in from a distance and MORE than likely not be all that interested in the pillows.

 

If we go the virtuous route  and design for LOD1 on an old tablet, are we limiting our sales, hence our revenue and possibly killing our business leading to our journey out the virtual door?  While I agree that the suggestion to look at our uploading methods and LODS is a good one, I am wondering how many content creators are going to change their methods.

 

I have been designing for LOD 2 (sometimes lower but not always) for at least a year. I typically make fairly low poly mesh anyway so this isn't really a chore.  I really don't plan on making any changes other than uploading some new walls on one older mesh building giving folks a CHOICE of high or low LODS.  I am certainly not a model of perfection in the LOD area. Somewhere between "ohmygoditisgorgeous--whydoesitdisappearwhenIwalkaway" to "man I can see that mushroom all the way across the sim but it pretty ugly close up". That is MY comfort level.

 

Should anyone want to chime in, I would be interested in any changes on the horizon that might appear in their uploading strategy. 

 

Here are a couple of examples. Just shots of my building pad. No fancy lights. Taken from aways away --and my thinking. Not trying to pull anyone into my camp, I just think it is an interesting philosophical question. I already know some of your positions of course :D.

 



This is a set I completed today for an advent event in December. I am definitely farther away than I would be within a normal house. The tree which could go outside can be seen in its complete shape from farther away. The tall shelves have the least holding power, but are good up to this distance.

 



 

Further out most of the furniture has disappeared but logically we don't need to SEE furniture at this distance - LOL.  The house on the left uploaded a week or so ago has stellar LODs and can be seen clearly much further away than this shot. The roof by the way IS curved with a flat roof in front so that isn't the roofline breaking up *wink*. 

 

The skybox windows break up about here. The pretty complex house is 83 land impact (the siding is REALLY siding and there are interior additions that you can't see). Edit: I forgot that the house on the left is actually SIZED DOWN to fit in an event pad area so it is much smaller than it would be for use. The model HERE (smaller) is only 34 li. The skybox is 4 with perfect physics and a gorgeous bake (thank you Blender 2.78 which has made BIG strides over 2.75 in baking). I could have uploaded with better window trim LODs but the person inside the skybox will never see them at that distance and most of us aren't trying to impress our sky neighbors.

 

Just kinda felt like putting my thoughts down on paper.

 

I don't believe the whole LOD issue is about prim savings. That is certainly part of it. But some designers have I li items that could EASILY have been uploaded using the sliders (no custom LODS) so that they could be seen further than a few feet away. The download number is like .2. I can only assume they just use the default uploader settings and have their own LODs setting at 4.

It is particularly disconcerting to see our HAIR disappear at a short distance away LOL. Someone wrote here on that today I think and I have had a few hairs that preformed said feat. I did not feature them on my blog (smile). At Cloud Party you were only allowed so many models with long distance LODs so you had to THINK about what you wanted to be seen far away and also make choices. We don't have to do that here and so that leads to items that might be too heavy or items that disappear in the blink of an idea.

 

Happily I do believe that more folks are paying attention these days. I certainly am. Spell check not working so if Google didn't catch it, forgive me please.

[arton Rotaru]

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Chic Aeon wrote: I am wondering how many content creators are going to change their methods.

 

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1 or 2....perhaps. Probably less even. :matte-motes-dead:

[Nalytha]

((General Reply))

I didn't even know what LOD was (in relation to how it can be manipulated) until recently. I bought a house and realized it distorted when I was zoomed out a little. It came with a note card that said to raise your LOD. Mine was on default. I have a good gaming computer, so yes. I run around with it set to 4 now. However when I shop, I lower the setting. LOD is important to me because I want OTHERS to see my stuff. This is especially important to me when I buy anything for outside my house like landscaping.

I bought some trees lately that included a low LOD tree and a high one. Wow. That is awesome. In a perfect world it would be great if every creator did that. But I've also learned that making the higher LOD stuff takes significant time which is why I assume this isn't popular.

To sum up. Yes I can run SL with LOD to 4. But I will pay more money for an item with a better LOD because I want others to be able to see.

[Callum Meriman]

I always run on LOD4, never even thinking about the lower ones. My PC is fine with that - and 500K ARC people in a busy sim, with ALS and shadows and 400M draw distances and 30+ fps - to be able to do this.

But I know  a lot of people still run on potatos. So the mesh I make though I have always tried to build as LOD sensative as my meagre skills allow, but importantly and more on topic than my meagre blender skills... I don't buy items thinking of others, I buy it for style. And that is my sole determining factor. 

 

But... will the Lab's premise of "hey guise, use these to up your lower lods for the good of the potato users" hold? Nope.

People will still move to the lower LI items, and jam more in.  A GTX1050 is less than US$150, potato users need to start upgrading.

[Chic Aeon]

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Nalytha wrote:

((General Reply))

 

 But I've also learned that making the higher LOD stuff takes significant time which is why I assume this isn't popular.

 

 

 

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I can't see where the code is picking up the italics OR get it off so I am going to put MY reply in bold.

I am not really sure why someone told you that or what they are getting at. Trying to wrap my head around it. IF you make more complex items (like adding bolts and other small details) then yes, it would take a bit more time. But in general that is only a small part of the process.

A good model will most often be something with a reasonable amount of detail but not with so much that the uploader will choke (metaphorically of course). That tends to happen mostly with clothing where folks have become entranced with ruffles and stuff and made things SUPER smooth where they really don't need to be.

Many of the differences happen in the upload process. Whether someone makes their own LOD models or uses the uploader wisely (AND TESTS), it comes down to choices. IF someone is actually testing their models (obviously not everyone is) then there is still the question of "how far" you want folks to see that tree. Do they need to see it from half way across the sim? or a couple of blocks away?  

There is not real CORRECT answer because each person using an item will be using it in a different way. Someone in a tiny skybox isn't going to NEED great Long Distance Viewing even at a low LOD setting. They can't get far enough away to cause and issue --- unless of course it has REALLY been made pourly *wink*.  That same object (let's call it a plant in a pottery jug) might go outside on a sim where there IS the ability to view it at a long distance.

I think you are right about having high and low LOD models on some things (other things like general furniture not so much). I have two things now that I think on it that I am going to make high LOD models of. That only means that I need to upload them again at -- let's call it stronger -- settings. One I will need to take apart and add the parts that are problematic, but that's not a huge thing.

There is of course a COST involved in higher LOD goods -- on larger itmes mostly. 

If you can remember the reason given behind the "harder to make high LOD settings" idea I would be very interested to know. 

Thanks for being a good citizen!  *wink*

PS. Venues (events) are a great place to shop for good LODs because most are vast and items are out and can be seen from long distances. Sometimes in shops, that isn't the case -- even when there are demos.  Happily I rarely see any faulty LOD items in the venues I am in. Now and then sure, but the BUYERS also get to see that!

 

 Edit: I think I figure out the 'harder' part of your comment. If people make CUSTOM LODS for their models (the very best method if you are good at it) then yes, it takes more time. BUT even if creators simply use the uploader more carefully and not just accept the default setting (which in my experience really only work well on certain simple and large models) they could make better LODS -- often with no land impact changes. They just need to be aware and test their models at different lod settings.  That really doesn't take all that much time.

[Chic Aeon]

LOL. I pretty much agree with all of that except that ---

 

Even though I have a fairly new and pretty smoking desktop and can run lots of programs all at once and multiple avatars I turned down my LODs to 2 last year. And my computer -- hefty as it is -- seems thrilled .    Also it is a personal reminder to keep aware.

 

I have a few personal items that are LOD disasters, but not many. And I am much more warry of blogging said items. I know there is a buyer beware thing going on but I would like to applaud the folks doing it "right" and not the other way around.

 

And no, I don't see a lot of changes happening. I too  -- as a consumer, not a creator -- feel like the folks at LOD 1 really just need better machines, and that likely much of the world does look bad. I don't feel that I need to give up my details because they don't have good hardware. Selfish? A bit.

 

I suspect many designers are split with their alliances -- go with style or be practical.  I pretty much split the difference in a compromising manner.

 

[Nalytha]

Thank you for your response. I'm sorry. I don't build. My comment about it being harder was based off of a comment I've seen on this forum. I can't even remember the thread and since I'm not a builder, I'm sure I didn't fully comprehend the comment. It just left me with the impression that it took more time to make. Perhaps it was in regards to the custom LODs you mentioned.

[Nalytha]

Are you saying that to make something like this an option, it probably didn't take much extra work? Because if that's the case, I wish more folks would do it. I love having the power to decide whether I want to be prim concious or not. In addition, to also have the power to change my mind should the situation change. 

 



[Chic Aeon]

Yes in general anyway. Not sure about that exact product.

 

OK I looked up that particular tree and it is only partial mesh (the trunk no doubt) so this isn't a good example. Let's take another one -- one that I am going to do maybe tomorrow.

 

I made some filler buildings a couple of years ago. They are very low land impact (the ones without stairs that is) and they work fine in some situations. But at LOD 2 they have to "rez in" meaning the shape doesn't come on clearly right away. So I am going to make HIGHER LOD buidings for those that need longer distances. These are all out on display so I am not feeling guilty or anything . The folks that buy them apparently can tell they will work.

 

All I have to do is find the file on my computer and upload making sure that the further distance LODs are high enough for good long distance viewing. If my first test works, that takes maybe three minutes. If not another try and another three minutes.

Once I get the high LOD model, all I need to do is unpack the ones I have at the shop, rez them and copy over the textures to the appropriate places. It is a pack so there are quite a few of them, but really shouldn't take a lot of time. Would have been LESS of course if I did it all at the same time --- but who knew?!?!?!? 

 

Again, I only think this is important in some situations -- mostly outdoor items.

 

So -- ONE upload (if it is a single mesh) at a cost of $11 most of the time -- for me anyway. Hope that helps explain.

 

Edit: Well of course it wasn't THAT easy. Finding a 2014 file is tricky for me. Finally got the RIGHT one. Then the texture on the buildings were part of that big loss of textures (my **buildings folder) from the nasty database grimlin. Happily my friend made those textures so she sent me copies (whew). I also (of course) found something that I felt I needed to change as it would be better, so did that. AND Blender 2.78A crashed along the way NOT leaving a backup file or a recovery file. It took me back to yesterday's work. All odd.

But it COULD have been that simple LOL/

 

The new ones are 15 LI instead of 3 but you can see them all the way across the sim and further; there was no middle point unfortunately as they were VERY simple to start with.

 

 

[Nalytha]

Thank you very much. I can see that I really didn't understand the situation well at all. This helps.

[Callum Meriman]

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Chic Aeon wrote:

LOL. I pretty much agree with all of that except that ---

 

Even though I have a fairly new and pretty smoking desktop and can run lots of programs all at once and multiple avatars I turned down my LODs to 2 last year. And my computer -- hefty as it is -- seems thrilled

. 

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Hehe, I would, but my planes and ships almost all become unseeable flying triangles - and sailing/flying is most of my time in SL now. Stripping out those lowest three LODS reduces the LI and gives a huge amount of saving for the vehicle maker to use on other things.

Quality/Number of scripts and LI are very important for a vehicle crossing a sim border. The lower LI is, the better the changeover happens, especially over 15 knots. Over 15 knots and especially over 30 knots a higher LI vehicle could crash you, needing you to relog and restart from scratch.

That's a lost race.

 

Mind you, I love sailing my 512 LI Frigate, but she tops at 12 knots and is so large that you don't see the rubberband.



[Devriv]

Thank you for this post Chic

I have a small store, but most of the time I’m building for friends or helping them convert their builds into mesh for reasonably lower LI.  I’d like to reply then if I may as an amateur builder and regular SL resident.

Those with their viewers’ LOD set to 4+ and with powerful computers will probably not buy better LOD/higher LI objects for the greater good of the grid (Nalytha being an exception ).  With their viewer LODs set to 4, they will only see differences in the land impacts, and will therefore choose the lower LI, not knowing they’ve perhaps cast aside a build with proper LODs for one with none.  But this group of people is a minority.  I think that the majority of residents whose viewers’ LOD is set to 4+ do not have powerful systems.  These are the people who, having set their viewer LOD to 4 in order to compensate for poor mesh LODs, are additionally rewarded with extra lag.  That’s natural of course, because with viewers set to 4, they are likely rendering all mesh object within the radius of their draw distance at their highest level of detail. These people are much more likely, I think, to look for and buy items with proper LOD/higher LI. In an environment where objects have proper LODs, they’d be able to reduce lag by lowering their viewers’ LOD setting to something less taxing on their systems.

There are residents of course with computers capable of the LOD setting of 4, but who choose to leave it at default.  They want to see what others see, and if builders, they don’t wish to build only for those with powerful computers.   

The category of people you mention should be conscious of the greater good and feel some responsibility to that end, yes, but the responsibility and obligation ultimately lies with the builders. 

I also think that the more LODs are discussed (with friends, inworld, while shopping, by bloggers, etc), the more there will be cause for optimism.  

“If we go the virtuous route and design for LOD1 on an old tablet, are we limiting our sales, hence our revenue and possibly killing our business leading to our journey out the virtual door?”

This can be considered the other way too of course:  There are those of us who won’t purchase mesh objects with poor or zeroed lower LODs.

One quick note on indoor and outdoor mesh.  There can be strong arguments against it I’m sure, but I think where an object is assumed to be rezzed is irrelevant, that all or nearly all objects should be ready for use outdoors.  Why do I say this?  Because I see “indoor” mesh objects that come apart when viewed from across the room they are placed in.  A mesh object may be made for indoors, but not every room is 7x7meters!

[Chic Aeon]

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Devriv wrote:

 

One quick note on indoor and outdoor mesh.  There can be strong arguments against it I’m sure, but I think where an object is assumed to be rezzed is irrelevant, that all or nearly all objects should be ready for use outdoors.  Why do I say this?  Because I see “indoor” mesh objects that come apart when viewed from across the room they are placed in.  A mesh object may be made for indoors, but not every room is 7x7meters!

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I do agree and I, personally, try to be good about indoor items *wink*. I cam WAY out and see where things fall apart. If it will work in a venue event, then it should work in most every house in SL. There are no doubt exceptions to that but I am thinking that the folks with those GIGANTIC hoomes (like a quarter of a sim) probably are running at LOD4 anyway . I could be wrong there of course.

There is a balance and that was stressed to me in comments when I was new to mesh making. I don't remember who it was, not Drongle or Aquila as those guys I would remember -- but someone said just because you CAN make the (vase) at full LOD for the top three settings and still come in at 1 impact, there is no reason to do that. If all objects are set at longer LODs than necessary then that is too much stress on the server. I think that is pretty wise advice. You really don't need to see a pot full of flowers from 64 meters away  LOL.  

 

So in general my idea of inside and outside encompasses that advice. I fully support each creator to decide what is correct for themself and for their customer base. There are a few very popular H and G designers that only design for the LOD4 crowd. It works for them. Some folks are still making prim items and those will work for the lower powered citizens certainly. There is no one perfect answer IMHO.

 

[Medhue Simoni]

IMHO, the problems of bad LODs is 1 of a lack of education. Yeah tho, no matter what, there will be bad LODs in SL. Heck, I'm sure I have some too, from some of my first models that I ever made. That's SL tho. It's a place of learning and advancing, with hobbyists and professionals. Some of those hobbyists becoming professionals in the process. Like I said tho, the LOD issue is really something that is solved with better info and education.

All that said, I'm working on a video now, going over my views and techniques related to LODs.

[Medhue Simoni]

I keep seeing people talking about raising your LOD level in the viewer. Looking into it, it is my opinion that this is convoluted and completely unnecessary. Simply adjusting your Object slider in the Advanced Graphics settings will up the distance the LODs change. My PC is easily in the top 5% of machines used to render SL, and even my object setting was set extremely low, to the point I have to zoom in to see anything at it's highest quality. Don't ask me why LL sets this as the Default, because it's pretty ridiculous.  

[Drongle McMahon]

In the LL viewer, the Object detail slider will only raise RenderVolumeLODFactor to 2.00, the default for Ultra graphics. That isn't generally enough for the products of the extreme LOD abusers settings used by some creators.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

In the LL viewer, the Object detail slider will only raise RenderVolumeLODFactor to 2.00, the default for Ultra graphics. That isn't generally enough for the products of the extreme LOD abusers.

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I'm confused by how the LODs can be abused. I've just never looked into it. Can you explain a little?

[Drongle McMahon]

Sorry. I guess that's a biased adjective that I should have avoided. It is the outcome of my view is that setting the second (medium) LOD to a single triangle is essentially an abuse of the intended application of the facility to define LODs, becuase it forces users to use viewer settings outside the normal range to preserve acceptable appearances. I do realise that others don't share this view, and that they are as entitled to that opinion as I am to mine. I'll change it.

ETA. In fact I could go further. If LOD meshes are provided, instead of using the defualt LOD generator, it is possible to make sure that a single triangle is invisible (e.g. upside-down, underground). The effect is that the object disppears entirely, rather than collapsing into an ugly state. Although I don't think this is as good as a properly crafyed LOD, it is more acceptable than the ugly collapse cases.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

Sorry. I guess that's a biased adjective that I should have avoided. It is the outcome of my view is that setting the second (medium) LOD to a single triangle is essentially an abuse of the intended application of the facility to define LODs, becuase it forces users to use viewer settings outside the normal range to preserve acceptable appearances. I do realise that others don't share this view, and that they are as entitled to that opinion as I am to mine. I'll change it.

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WTF! People do that? And then tell everyone to turn their LOD levels up? OMG, how much more convoluted can people be?

I'm not sure I'd label it as abusive, but more like an extremely uneducated monstrocity.

In the first place, the medium level has almost no effect on your ending land impact. So, why would anyone start there?

Well, all I can do is make my video on the topic and hope that creators make better choices. I hope I can show creators that spending just a few minutes and making their own LODs, as well as understanding how the upload calculates Land impact, can get them much greater benefits than what they are currently doing. This is not to say everyone will agree with my conclusions, just that mine aren't as convoluted as this crazy example. lol

[Drongle McMahon]

"the medium level has almost no effect on your ending land impact."

Well, that actually depends on the size of the object. I was really simplifying to keep it simple, and had trees in mind. The same sort of considerations apply with the single-triangle trick at different LODs depending on the object size. It's fair to say it's more common at the lower LODs.

I'm looking forward to seeing your video, wondering how you will cover such potentially large subject. :matte-motes-grin:

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

ETA. In fact I could go further. If LOD meshes are provided, instead of using the defualt LOD generator, it is possible to make sure that a single triangle is invisible (e.g. upside-down, underground). The effect is that the object disppears entirely, rather than collapsing into an ugly state. Although I don't think this is as good as a properly crafyed LOD, it is more acceptable than the ugly collapse cases.

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I think even better is to have a single plane as the last LOD, with maybe a plane for each face/material. In most cases, an object is resting on something, hence you can avoid people seeing the back side. Really tho, I don't think we even have to go that extreme with it. Yeah, if you gotta save 2 land impacts, then you can do that, but with all these extra prims we are getting, why not spend those 2 prims on a little more detail? At some point tho, whether a plane, or a box, or a set of triangles, there is little benefit to trying to go lower.

[Medhue Simoni]

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Drongle McMahon wrote:

"the medium level has almost no effect on your ending land impact."

Well, that actually

depends on the size

of the object. I was really simplifying to keep it simple, and had trees in mind. The same sort of considerations apply with the single-triangle trick at different LODs depending on the object size. It's fair to say it's more common at the lower LODs.

I'm looking forward to seeing your video, wondering how you will cover such potentially large subject. :matte-motes-grin:

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Ah yes! Large objects! Yeah, not really something I've played with all that much. Gosh, I really have bento stuff I gotta do, lol. This topic is news now tho, and people are listening, so I'm compelled to do this now. Maybe I'll have to only address smaller object in the video, until I can dig into larger objects more. Unless.... you'd like to give me your observations of how best to handle large objects, or how to cover that in the video?

[Drongle McMahon]

Probably best to stick to one scale for now. Essentially for intermediate sized objects (5m..30m, say) the same decisions and LI consequences apply, but they just move up the LODS scale to higher LODE switches. Then for the very largest (60m+) objects, LOD has no effect on either visible object or LI.

Then there is the whole area of breaking large objects into smaller pieces to change their LOD behaviour and LI, including splitting iterior and exterior parts of buildings. That's a whole other story, but it depends on understanding the basic behaviour of single objevts first. So that is probably best left to another vide, if you feel like it after the first one :matte-motes-dont-cry:.

[arton Rotaru]

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Medhue Simoni wrote:

WTF! People do that? And then tell everyone to turn their LOD levels up? OMG, how much more convoluted can people be?

I'm not sure I'd label it as abusive, but more like an extremely uneducated monstrocity.

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 :matte-motes-little-laugh: Besides telling everyone to up their LOD settings, they advertise their models as highly detailed with super low land impact as well.

In such cases I do label it as abusive. :matte-motes-smitten:

[Chic Aeon]

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arton Rotaru wrote:

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 :matte-motes-little-laugh: Besides telling everyone to up their LOD settings, they advertise their models as highly detailed with super low land impact as well.

In such cases I do label it as abusive. :matte-motes-smitten:

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LOL. That gave me a laugh. Actually the things that I see with horrible LODs are mostly smallish  home and garden furniture type items -- which really can almost always use the same LOD as the highest setting -- at least if the original model was low poly.

 

And as Drongel said SIZE does make a big difference.

I just added  some high LOD houses, putting both in the vendor now (did not replace).  Even on a small house which HAD been broken up into several pieces, the land impact doubled from 37 to 72 or something like that. It seems like ONLY making the 72 long distance viewing house would be just as "wrong" as only making a 12 land impact version which could only be seen reasonably with LOD 4 set.  If someone is in a  skybox or one of the ubiquitous blue balls there is no need for any long distance viewing so that would simply be a waste of primmage.

 

If creators turned down their LOD settings to 2 (or less) they would see the world a lot differently. Actually I think many of them have.

 

I don't think there is a perfect answer that will work for all solutions, but whatever creators do when they upload (even if they just use the default settings - cringe) -- they should TEST to see what things look like at lower LOD settings.  I once had a well-known fancy house creator tell me to turn my LOD settings up to 20 ( I don't think you can do that any more) because I wasn't seeing all he had created. This was a blogging event. I replied that I refused to turn my LOD past 4 as that was the "high" setting for most people who had raised their setting.  End of story.

 

 Edit: If anyone else is having constant issues with spellcheck. I just discovered that posting and then checking again get's things working as they should.