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We Need To Talk About Gacha And Its Spam


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'Gacha" and "Gasha" are shortened versions of 'gashapon" and 'gachapon" and orginated from vending-machine-dispensed capsule toys.

"The terms gashapon (ガシャポン?) or gachapon (ガチャポン?) refer to variety of vending machine-dispensed capsule toys popular in Japan and elsewhere. "

"Gashapon" is a Japanese onomatopoeia composed of two sounds: "gasha" (or "gacha") for the sound of a crank on a toy vending machine, and "pon" for the sound of the toy capsule dropping into the receptacle.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon

 

Kompu gacha, or “complete gacha” is a monetization mechanic in social games that heavily incentivizes the practice of gacha — paying a small amount of money to get an item at random, similar to purchasing toys from a vending machine.

Japan’s Consumer Affairs Agency has officially declared kompu gacha illegal.

Jin Matsubara, Japan’s minister of state for consumer affairs and food safety said “significantly increasing the passion for gambling is not appropriate to the education of children.”

- http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/japan-officially-declares-lucractive-kompu-gacha-practice-illegal-in-social-games/525608

 


Suddenly I'm coming across a lot of products with the same image over and over again, and an influx of 'gacha' based item sales.

This can't be good for SL. Since when is purchasing things you don't know what you will recieve, basically equating to gambling on the marketplace acceptable?

On a practical note, many stores are opening up to do the very same thing, which appears to be a reseller type of money profiteering venture.

This is filling up many sections with spam images that are all the same, yet sell different kinds of items.

Is this where we are heading our sales schemes now?

Thanks for your feedback and consideration on this issue. What are the benefits to SL users and merchants alike to have this now?

 

Examples below:  (All marketing/business identifications scrubbed, no prejudice intended, used for examples only)




Ok, so even as spammy as I still think this is, especially when;

1) It is listed 10 times on the MP for each color it comes in

2) The same image and similar descriptions will be used for EACH product in the image - also with possible multiple colors

3) The same image can/will/is used by multiple sellers, creating an exponential presence of said image....

This is acceptable by LL guidelines.

 



Quite a bit less clear, no product highlight, description only

1) Using multiple images that are, to the eye, exactly the same

2) Tons and tons of products in the same image, no clarification as to which you are actually getting

3) Descriptions only, vary

4) Same image used with multiple products and multiple sellers

5) Opinion: Very spammy.

 

But this is acceptable by LL, correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Here is where it gets interesting, and where many people here want to deny there is a problem;

1) Same images used

2) No clarification

3) Description only

4) Same brand, multiple sellers

5) Different prices

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone can find these examples doing a simple search for [item], put to 96 images per page, click on 'Newest' or "Best Selling" or whatever sorting scheme you want - and find this going on.

My position was that many of these sellers and examples are at the least pushing the boundaries of the guidelines, and even going outside of them.

It was my opinion only that this is an ugly and spammy practice, and only contributes to the confusion of the average shopper - and annoys the veteran ones.

Really, if this is how people like to shop, by making the purchase of a simple item into a Grand Easter Egg hunt, and they want to gamble with their dollars trying to guess which item they get, and having to search through multiple sellers and repeated images and listings for the same exact product - all power to them.

For the rest of us, it amounts to effective (not LL legal) spam, and either the practice needs to be strictly monitored, or another way of sorting these products so as not to turn the MP into an ugly cesspool.

Much like those spamming demo and rental products using the $0L Category - which is also currently acceptable, but also pushes at the boundaries and guidelines and also creates effective (not LL Legal) spam, we need a way to keep products in the categories they truly belong in - especially if it's filters or other methods.

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The benefit to merchants is pretty obvious. They'll make more money per item, as people will pay far more trying to get the special widget than they'd ever pay for the item if it was directly for sale.

What the customer gets out of it is rather more debatable. When gachas aren't too common, and every item would be great to have, they can be fun. But when there are gachas everywhere for everything, a lot of the fun is lost. In Second Life, it's also an odd choice for items that would be better off as copy. But clearly some people like them as they keep on buying the stuff, so I just boggle at the whole thing.

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I agree that gacha's are like gambling, other than you will get something all the time.  You generally end up paying more for things than you would if you just bought them outright, unless you are lucky and get what you want on the first try or two or the price per try is very low.  I think people like it for the same reasons they like slot machines.

Merchants like it because as already said, they earn more money from them than they would if they sold the items for what they are really worth. 

Personally I don't like gachas.

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entity0x wrote:

Suddenly I'm coming across a lot of products with the same image over and over again, and an influx of 'gacha' based item sales.

This can't be good for SL. Since when is purchasing things you don't know what you will recieve, basically equating to gambling on the marketplace acceptable?

 

On a practical note, many stores are opening up to do the very same thing, which appears to be a reseller type of money profiteering venture.

This is filling up many sections with spam images that are all the same, yet sell different kinds of items.

Is this where we are heading are sales schemes now?

Thanks for your feedback and consideration on this issue. What are the benefits to SL users and merchants alike to have this now?

The marketplace listings are for resale of gacha items. They all have the same picture because gacha items are typically displayed with all the possibilities on one image. If you read the description you'll find out exactly which item you're getting. If you want to avoid seeing them an easy way to do that is to filter only for copyable items.

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entity0x wrote:

Suddenly I'm coming across a lot of products with the same image over and over again, and an influx of 'gacha' based item sales.

This can't be good for SL. Since when is purchasing things you don't know what you will receive, basically equating to gambling on the marketplace acceptable?
But, you know what you will receive.. one of the items listed. Its kind of like a claw machine game..

 

On a practical note, many stores are opening up to do the very same thing, which appears to be a reseller type of money profiteering venture.

This is filling up many sections with spam images that are all the same, yet sell different kinds of items.
It's not spam and you had better not flag it as such. That would be an abuse of the reporting system.

Is this where we are heading are sales schemes now?
No, people can now resell the gatcha items they don't want on the MP.. You couldn't do this with the previous version.

Thanks for your feedback and consideration on this issue. What are the benefits to SL users and merchants alike to have this now?
Users can sell the items they don't want and become a merchant. Merchants can sell the items they don't want and stay merchants, i guess.

Gatcha sales are like a big flea market.. Wander around hoping to find something  useful in all the crap.

As to the title of the OP.. No we really don't need to talk about it.. And it isn't spam. Before anyone says anything i have seen it spelled with and without the T. I have seen it spelled as Gotcha and Gocha as well.. We really need to come together and have one spelling..

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


entity0x wrote:

Suddenly I'm coming across a lot of products with the same image over and over again, and an influx of 'gacha' based item sales.

This can't be good for SL. Since when is purchasing things you don't know what you will receive, basically equating to gambling on the marketplace acceptable?
But, you know what you will receive.. one of the items listed. Its kind of like a claw machine game..

 

On a practical note, many stores are opening up to do the very same thing, which appears to be a reseller type of money profiteering venture.

This is filling up many sections with spam images that are all the same, yet sell different kinds of items.
It's not spam and you had better not flag it as such. That would be an abuse of the reporting system.

Is this where we are heading are sales schemes now?
No, people can now resell the gatcha items they don't want on the MP.. You couldn't do this with the previous version.

Thanks for your feedback and consideration on this issue. What are the benefits to SL users and merchants alike to have this now?
Users can sell the items they don't want and become a merchant. Merchants can sell the items they don't want and stay merchants, i guess.

Gatcha sales are like a big flea market.. Wander around hoping to find something  useful in all the crap.

As to the title of the OP.. No we really don't need to talk about it.. And it isn't spam. Before anyone says anything i have seen it spelled with and without the T. I have seen it spelled as Gotcha and Gocha as well.. We really need to come together and have one spelling..


Oh we do need to talk about it, and will, if people want to. You will not dictate what gets talked about on a public forum.

You can put to rest your concern with the spelling, as a simple Google search for yourself would have gained you a quick answer, and the realization that the term 'gacha' I used, is correct.

-https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon

Having a flea market idea is fine in theory, as one would 'wander' about a sim seeking little treasures not found elsewhere or even on the marketplace, and in limited quantities.  A 'flea market' reselling of items on the marketplace is not where it should happen - even if it is popular. It's cluttering up the search engines with a lot of 'crap' - as you have defined it - so needs to be addressed.

When one searches the marketplace for a certain item, very, very many results are from seeminly unrelated or unable-to-ascertain the actual relevance of the Gacha type listings. You will find many times that there may be 20-30 Gacha and similar sales schemes and their images cluttering up their page.

Since each image is EXACTLY the same, the ad made in haste and laziness, and each item's product is not CLEARLY displayed or even described, and when done repeatedly is called 'spam'.

Are people all that desperate for money that they are willing to destroy the convenience and use of the marketplace to find things they want to use in SL?

 

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entity0x wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:


entity0x wrote:

Suddenly I'm coming across a lot of products with the same image over and over again, and an influx of 'gacha' based item sales.

This can't be good for SL. Since when is purchasing things you don't know what you will receive, basically equating to gambling on the marketplace acceptable?
But, you know what you will receive.. one of the items listed. Its kind of like a claw machine game..

 

On a practical note, many stores are opening up to do the very same thing, which appears to be a reseller type of money profiteering venture.

This is filling up many sections with spam images that are all the same, yet sell different kinds of items.
It's not spam and you had better not flag it as such. That would be an abuse of the reporting system.

Is this where we are heading are sales schemes now?
No, people can now resell the gatcha items they don't want on the MP.. You couldn't do this with the previous version.

Thanks for your feedback and consideration on this issue. What are the benefits to SL users and merchants alike to have this now?
Users can sell the items they don't want and become a merchant. Merchants can sell the items they don't want and stay merchants, i guess.

Gatcha sales are like a big flea market.. Wander around hoping to find something  useful in all the crap.

As to the title of the OP.. No we really don't need to talk about it.. And it isn't spam. Before anyone says anything i have seen it spelled with and without the T. I have seen it spelled as Gotcha and Gocha as well.. We really need to come together and have one spelling..


Oh we do need to talk about it, and will, if people want to. You will not dictate what gets talked about on a public forum.

Just my opinion, untwist your panties.

You can put to rest your concern with the spelling, as a simple Google search for yourself would have gained you a quick answer, and the realization that the term 'gacha' I used, is correct.

-

That is for a RL toy... And a very specific one at that. Seeing as it is widely used in SL under many names, your assumption that that applies to SL is mistaken.

Having a flea market idea is fine in theory, as one would 'wander' about a sim seeking little treasures not found elsewhere or even on the marketplace, and in limited quantities.  A 'flea market' reselling of items on the marketplace is not where it should happen - even if it is popular. It's cluttering up the search engines with a lot of 'crap' - as you have defined it - so needs to be addressed.

You see the same thing with cats and horses and all sorts of breedables.. Your point is?

When one searches the marketplace for a certain item, very, very many results are from seeminly unrelated or unable-to-ascertain the actual relevance of the Gacha type listings. You will find many times that there may be 20-30 Gacha and similar sales schemes and their images cluttering up their page.

Refine your searches.. What exactly are you searching for that pops all these gatcha hits? I rarely see any.

Since each image is EXACTLY the same, the ad made in haste and laziness, and each item's product is not CLEARLY displayed or even described, and when done repeatedly is called 'spam'.

Not always, sometimes they circle the item on the image.

Are people all that desperate for money that they are willing to destroy the convenience and use of the marketplace to find things they want to use in SL?

Seeing as you are the only one bitching about it.. Perhaps it isn''t that big of a deal?

 

 

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I know what you mean I was looking for some stuff for a little coffee shop set-up I had on my home sim and good lord page after page of rare Gacha stuff buildings cups bikes complete and not complete set-ups after about page 5 I gave up and built it myself.

When they say rare it is that because it will be rare they get any of my linden but the couple times I have played them I set a limit for how much I'm willing to lose and play. If I get what Im trying for before my limit good for me. If I get junk I dont want I just delete it. I have no problem flushing unwanted gacha stuff down the trash can.

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Pamela Galli wrote:

And once again you demonstrate that you are impervious to enlightenment.

Once again, you demonstrate how you cannot simply participate in a conversation properly and instead resort to unwanted and antisocial personal attacks.

If you have no comment or opinion on the original post, keep your assumptive and inflammatory responses to yourself.

 


Torrie Mint wrote:

I know what you mean I was looking for some stuff for a little coffee shop set-up I had on my home sim and good lord page after page of rare Gacha stuff buildings cups bikes complete and not complete set-ups after about page 5 I gave up and built it myself.

When they say rare it is that because it will be rare they get any of my linden but the couple times I have played them I set a limit for how much I'm willing to lose and play. If I get what Im trying for before my limit good for me. If I get junk I dont want I just delete it. I have no problem flushing unwanted gacha stuff down the trash can.

Just seems like a horrible system to have in  Second Life, and reminds me of the gambling schemes of old. If anything this needs to be observed and strictly enforced, as I can see this could cause great confusion amongst users, and a decline in confidence in shopping in the Marketplace.

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'Gacha" and "Gasha" are shortened versions of 'gashapon" and 'gachapon" and orginated from vending-machine-dispensed capsule toys.

"The terms gashapon (ガシャポン?) or gachapon (ガチャポン?) refer to variety of vending machine-dispensed capsule toys popular in Japan and elsewhere. "

"Gashapon" is a Japanese onomatopoeia composed of two sounds: "gasha" (or "gacha") for the sound of a crank on a toy vending machine, and "pon" for the sound of the toy capsule dropping into the receptacle.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gashapon

 

Kompu gacha, or “complete gacha” is a monetization mechanic in social games that heavily incentivizes the practice of gacha — paying a small amount of money to get an item at random, similar to purchasing toys from a vending machine.

Japan’s Consumer Affairs Agency has officially declared kompu gacha illegal.

Jin Matsubara, Japan’s minister of state for consumer affairs and food safety said “significantly increasing the passion for gambling is not appropriate to the education of children.”

- http://www.adweek.com/socialtimes/japan-officially-declares-lucractive-kompu-gacha-practice-illegal-in-social-games/525608

If you had read the entire wiki page from top to bottom, your understanding of where 'Gacha' and "Gasha" came from, and further used Google to expand your knowledge on the matter, you will find that each spelling is dependent on the source of the Gacha scheme.

The vending machine Gacha is fine, but the use of such in online multiplayer games, that group which SL belongs to, has been outright banned in Japan, because it is recognized as gambling.

Such machines in the game world I wouldn't trust anyway, and don't think belong in SL. And they most certainly don't belong on the SL Marketplace.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It's not spam...


Once again, you seem to not understand what 'spam' is.

When a seller posts multiple listings using the SAME image, usually consisting of images of 20 products, but only 1 is available, and only 1 item of the picture is presented, AND can be found repeating the same images for 20 products in the search window... looks like spam to me..



Which product is which?

I see 5 images listed:

Each image has a teapot, an ornamental frog, a lunchbox, a spatula and a dandelion in a vase.

Each image is exactly the same. There are 10 other images of other sets on the same page, with the same arrangement and color hue and style. No defining picture to separate one product from the other.

Which image do I click on to get the ornamental frog? All the images are the same.

Ok, this must be the ornamental frog. Or is it? **bleep**, I clicked on the lunchbox listing.. **bleep** these images! Why is this not spam?

You seem to keep asserting it is not spam, when the use of similar images to promote different items (as in advertising that ONE item in the picture of 20 items - the re-using this image in multiple listings creates VISUAL spam), then it cannot be good for a online marketplace, which needs to be clean and efficient for finding items.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

... and you had better not flag it as such. That would be an abuse of the reporting system.

If one were to report the numerous and growing listing infractions on the marketplace, it would be a full time job.

No. Instead I come to the forums to talk about it, and hopefully affect change, or at least see other opinions on the matter.

However, with a loose interpretation and tightening up of policies, the listing practices of many Gacha sellers, especially in the aspect of image representation could be very well going outside the guidelines of proper listing practices - or getting very near it.

For example, from the "Item or Keyword Spam" listing of the SLMP guidelines;

"Item spam is creating more than one product listing for any single item, and will not be tolerated."

- https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#keyword-spam

"Clear variations of an item, for example, an item offered in multiple sizes (such as small, medium, and large shoes), or an item offered in multiple colors (such as a blue and black sport coat), are, however, allowed and are not considered item spam"

- https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#keyword-spam

 



Does the multiple listings of a gacha pack, which can have 20 items using the same images, and is not a 'clear variation', not have a spam or negative effect on marketplace shopping?

 

This simple image was a quick example, but on some pages, especially under the 'newest' setting and on 'show 96 images per page', there is CLEARLY multiple listing with the same images being presented, with no CLEAR VARIATION between the products being sold.

 

Gacha packs are not 1) Multiple colors of the same item or 2) Multiple sizes of the same item.


Therefore, Linden Labs should consider revising their listing practices to accomodate Gacha, or disallow it altogether, as it creates spam of images, and repetition of items being sold, and multiple sellers selling, and reselling the same items.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

No, people can now resell the gatcha items they don't want on the MP..

Users can sell the items they don't want and become a merchant.

Merchants can sell the items they don't want and stay merchants...

Gatcha sales are like a big flea market..


So then yes, it is a sales scheme, by definition. This scheme doesn't sound good at all.

It is going to cause a lot of spam on the marketplace, repeated listings of the same product, repeated images of the product, and multiple sellers selling the same items.

When did the marketplace turn into a flea market, instead of a place to purchase items that users have made, presumbably out of originality, creativity and imagination?

--------------------------------------------

To summarize my response to you, I believe that the listing practices of the Marketplace need to be looked at, especially with this new wave of Gacha type of advertising, selling and reselling, and the spam that it creates on the MP, both in the use of the same images on multiple listings (some up to 20 listings for the same 'pack).

Many MarketPlace search suggestions have been made by other posters on this forum in the past, and improvements will come, and I will be here to put my 2 cents in.

I'd just appreciate a little more patience from you or others before making assumptions and personal attacks, and to remain civil in these discussions.

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entity0x wrote:



'Gacha" and "Gasha" are shortened versions of 'gashapon" and 'gachapon" and orginated from vending-machine-dispensed capsule toys.

"The terms gashapon (ガシャポン?) or gachapon (ガチャポン?) refer to variety of vending machine-dispensed capsule toys popular in Japan and elsewhere. "

"Gashapon" is a Japanese onomatopoeia composed of two sounds:
"gasha" (or "gacha")
for the sound of a crank on a toy vending machine, and "pon" for the sound of the toy capsule dropping into the receptacle.

-

 

Kompu gacha, or “complete gacha” is a monetization mechanic in social games that heavily incentivizes the practice of gacha — paying a small amount of money to get an item at random, similar to purchasing toys from a vending machine.

Japan’s Consumer Affairs Agency has officially declared kompu gacha illegal.

Jin Matsubara, Japan’s minister of state for consumer affairs and food safety said “significantly increasing the passion for gambling is not appropriate to the education of children.”

-

If you had read the entire wiki page from top to bottom, your understanding of where 'Gacha' and "Gasha" came from, and further used Google to expand your knowledge on the matter, you will find that each spelling is dependent on the source
of
the Gacha scheme.

The vending machine Gacha is fine, but the use of such in online multiplayer games, that group which SL belongs to, has been outright banned in Japan, because it is recognized as gambling.

Such machines in the game world I wouldn't trust anyway, and don't think belong in SL. And they most certainly don't belong on the SL Marketplace.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

It's not spam...


Once again, you seem to not understand what 'spam' is.

When a seller posts multiple listings using the SAME image, usually consisting of images of 20 products, but only 1 is available, and only 1 item of the picture is presented, AND can be found repeating the same images for 20 products in the search window... looks like spam to me..



Which product is which?

I see 5 images listed:

Each image has a teapot, an ornamental frog, a lunchbox, a spatula and a dandelion in a vase.

Each image is exactly the same. There are 10 other images of other sets on the same page, with the same arrangement and color hue and style. No defining picture to separate one product from the other.

Which image do I click on to get the ornamental frog? All the images are the same.

Ok, this must be the ornamental frog. Or is it? **bleep**, I clicked on the lunchbox listing.. **bleep** these images! Why is this not spam?

You seem to keep asserting it is not spam, when the use of similar images to promote different items (as in advertising that ONE item in the picture of 20 items - the re-using this image in multiple listings creates VISUAL spam), then it cannot be good for a online marketplace, which needs to be clean and efficient for finding items.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

... and you had better not flag it as such. That would be an abuse of the reporting system.

If one were to report the numerous and growing listing infractions on the marketplace, it would be a full time job.

No. Instead I come to the forums to talk about it, and hopefully affect change, or at least see other opinions on the matter.

However, with a loose interpretation and tightening up of policies, the listing practices of many Gacha sellers, especially in the aspect of image representation
could
be very well going outside the guidelines of proper listing practices - or getting very near it.

For example, from the
listing of the SLMP guidelines;

"
Item spam is creating more than one product listing for any single item, and will not be tolerated."

"Clear variations of an item, for example, an item offered in multiple sizes (such as small, medium, and large shoes), or an item offered in multiple colors (such as a blue and black sport coat), are, however, allowed and are not considered item spam"

-

 



Does the multiple listings of a gacha pack, which can have 20 items using the same images, and is not a 'clear variation', not have a spam or negative effect on marketplace shopping?

 

This simple image was a quick example, but on some pages, especially under the 'newest' setting and on 'show 96 images per page', there is CLEARLY multiple listing with the same images being presented, with no CLEAR VARIATION between the products being sold.

 

Gacha packs are not 1) Multiple colors of the same item or 2) Multiple sizes of the same item.

 

Therefore, Linden Labs should consider revising their listing practices to accomodate Gacha, or disallow it altogether, as it creates spam of images, and repetition of items being sold, and multiple sellers selling, and reselling the same items.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

No, people can now resell the gatcha items they don't want on the MP..

Users can sell the items they don't want and become a merchant.

Merchants can sell the items they don't want and stay merchants...

Gatcha sales are like a big flea market..


So then yes, it is a sales scheme, by definition. This scheme doesn't sound good at all.

It is going to cause a lot of spam on the marketplace, repeated listings of the same product, repeated images of the product, and multiple sellers selling the same items.

When did the marketplace turn into a flea market, instead of a place to purchase items that users have made, presumbably out of originality, creativity and imagination?

--------------------------------------------

To summarize my response to you, I believe that the listing practices of the Marketplace need to be looked at, especially with this new wave of Gacha type of advertising, selling and reselling, and the spam that it creates on the MP, both in the use of the same images on multiple listings (some up to 20 listings for the same 'pack).

Many MarketPlace search suggestions have been made by other posters on this forum in the past, and improvements will come, and I will be here to put my 2 cents in.

I'd just appreciate a little more patience from you or others before making assumptions and personal attacks, and to remain civil in these discussions.

People have been reselling Transfer items since Xstreet days.. It is nothing new. Again, if you don't want to see any gacha items simply put "NOT gacha" in your search..

I have remains civil, you however have made snide comments time and time again about "using google' and "reading the whole page" as if i am an idiot. As i said to you, you can not equate what a gacha is in RL to what is in SL. The ones in RL are part of a larger system and have extra benefits to various games.. The ones in SL are more like a random item giver.

They are not Spam. They do not fall under any definition of spam by LL standards.

less than 4% of items pop with the search of gacha.. Hardly the whole MP turning into a flea market, considering a lot of those are the machines themselves.

Coming to the forums to talk about it and effect change is foolish. LL does not pay a lick of attention to the forums.

but hey, keep beating your head against the wall.

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

People have been reselling Transfer items since XStreet days

What does that have to do with the current discussion of Gacha items and they way they are listed, and use repetitive images to advertise different items?

Plenty of Transfer items are resold, but in a modified state, with new textures, included in builds,etc, and certainly don't use the same images or tactics the current Gacha trend is


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I have remains civil, you however have made snide comments time and time again about "using google' and "reading the whole page" as if i am an idiot.

My intention is not to portay you as an idiot. However, when your responses to my posts demonstrate that you have a lack of knowledge or investigation into a matter, I will have to address it.

In order to have a constructive conversation, we must agree to the terms, definitions and concepts presented. Also, if I provide a source for my arguments, it is because I want you to understand where I am coming from, and to understand the concepts presented.

Responding as quickly as you do, and the way you ignore points made, makes it seem you have no interest in learning about, or discussing anything

It seems you give yourself a pass though, when it comes to asserting the attitude and technical skill of others in dealing with the marketplace usage or other.

Perhaps if you stuck to addressing the points made, either agreeing or disagreeing with them - and supporting your statements, you might be able to convince me of your position


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

less than 4% of items pop with the search of gacha.. Hardly the whole MP turning into a flea market, considering a lot of those are the machines themselves.

 

Quoting a percentage is irrelevant, unless you consider the fact that 4% of 100 items is only 4. If the total number of Gacha items were to increase to 1 Million, then 4% would still make a significant impact on the appearance, maintenance, organization, presentation and usage of the SL Marketplace. Where did you get the 4% statistic from? Do you have a source for this claim?


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you can not equate what a gacha is in RL to what is in SL. The ones in RL are part of a larger system and have extra benefits to various games.. The ones in SL are more like a random item giver.

Ok, so your response is a good example of how you demonstrate that you have not read the sources I have provided, or have some other obstacle I am unaware of that does not allow you to comprehend the content of said articles.

If you truly had read the articles in their entirety, in order to expand your knowledge on the subject, you would not have made the statement you just did.

The principles of gashapon in RL and in SL are exactly the same. One pays for a random item, in hopes of it being a rarity, similar to the vending machines you can find in any convenience store today. For online usage, it has been determined by many authorities to be considered gambling, and an undesired activity - especially where children are involved.

In fact you keep emboldening the stupidity of the system, by constantly admitting the Gacha scheme is full of 'crap', and that it 'offers random items. I am not sure why such activity should be allowed on the Marketplace, for the reasons I have listed and clearly supported previously - that which you have summarily ignored in order to just repeat yourself.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

They (gacha item listings) are not Spam. They do not fall under any definition of spam by LL standards.



Technically no, not at this time. I have demonstrated, however, how the Gacha scheme and the listing practices of said scheme could possibly damage the MP, as well as how they are definitely pushing at the fringes of the TOS.

Since the products are not shoes or coats, nor have anything to do with color or size, and IN FACT are advertising different items, but using the same images - creating image spam and non-clarity on the MP, that they COULD and MAY be outside the guidelines

Repeating yourself that it is not spam does nothing to support your argument, as you make no statements to explain why. Perhaps you are here just to fight, and not learn from discussing issues with others


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Coming to the forums to talk about it and effect change is foolish.

How so? Elaborate.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

LL does not pay a lick of attention to the forums.

What Linden Labs does or not do is irrelevant.

We are the participants, creators and users of Second Life. We make or break this experience with what WE do, or don't do, and how we treat others who want to discuss SL issues.

Its not Linden Labs selling copyrighted items, spam items, and stupid Gacha sales schemes. That comes from the merchants of SL themselves.

This is why I tackle these issue with YOU and other users themselves, down at the grass roots. Unless you can demonstrate that it is LL promoting things - the responsibility for the success and enjoyment of SL falls on you and I.

I'm looking forward to the future of SL - and what it offers both users and creators alike, hence why I participate on forums and discussions, to affect change one on one.

What has been your purpose here, in this topic and others, other than to attempt to stifle and discourage discussion?

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entity0x wrote:


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

People have been reselling Transfer items since XStreet days

What does that have to do with the current discussion of Gacha items and they way they are listed, and use repetitive images to advertise different items?

Because it is within the listing guidelines of the Marketplace.

Plenty of Transfer items are resold, but in a modified state, with new textures, included in builds,etc, and certainly don't use the same images or tactics the current Gacha trend is

And plenty are resold with the original image used..

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

I have remains civil, you however have made snide comments time and time again about "using google' and "reading the whole page" as if i am an idiot.

My intention is not to portay you as an idiot. However, when your responses to my posts demonstrate that you have a lack of knowledge or investigation into a matter, I will have to address it.

In order to have a constructive conversation, we must agree to the terms, definitions and concepts presented. Also, if I provide a source for my arguments, it is because I want you to understand where I am coming from, and to understand the concepts presented.

In the wiki link you posted it specifically states that some gachas and now being linked to video games and allowing the use of rare items if you get a special gacha. That has ZERO to do with how they are done in SL.

Responding as quickly as you do, and the way you ignore points made, makes it seem you have no interest in learning about, or discussing anything

Responding with counter points is a discussion.. I don't need to learn about gachas in SL. I know how they work.

It seems you give yourself a pass though, when it comes to asserting the attitude and technical skill of others in dealing with the marketplace usage or other.

Well, when you keep complaining that you are "flooded with gachas in every search" i gave you a simple way to not see them. Kind of like when we complain about DEMOs..

Perhaps if you stuck to addressing the points made, either agreeing or disagreeing with them - and supporting your statements, you might be able to convince me of your position

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

less than 4% of items pop with the search of gacha.. Hardly the whole MP turning into a flea market, considering a lot of those are the machines themselves.

 

Quoting a percentage is irrelevant, unless you consider the fact that 4% of 100 items is only 4. If the total number of Gacha items were to increase to 1 Million, then 4% would still make a significant impact on the appearance, maintenance, organization, presentation and usage of the SL Marketplace. Where did you get the 4% statistic from? Do you have a source for this claim?

Yeah, a simple search for "Gacha" and then a blank search.. Do the math and you get about 4%. Look, when a merchants name pops in an item search I find that a bigger issue than gachas. If i want a sword i don't need results with clothing made by someone with sword in their name.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

you can not equate what a gacha is in RL to what is in SL. The ones in RL are part of a larger system and have extra benefits to various games.. The ones in SL are more like a random item giver.

Ok, so your response is a good example of how you demonstrate that you have not read the sources I have provided, or have some other obstacle I am unaware of that does not allow you to comprehend the content of said articles.

If you truly had read the articles in their entirety, in order to expand your knowledge on the subject, you would not have made the statement you just did.

The principles of gashapon in RL and in SL are exactly the same. One pays for a random item, in hopes of it being a rarity, similar to the vending machines you can find in any convenience store today. For online usage, it has been determined by many authorities to be considered gambling, and an undesired activity - especially where children are involved.

Sorry, but no. Not everyone tries for a rarity. Not all Gachas have rares.  Only one authority considers it gambling, Japan.

In fact you keep emboldening the stupidity of the system, by constantly admitting the Gacha scheme is full of 'crap', and that it 'offers random items. I am not sure why such activity should be allowed on the Marketplace, for the reasons I have listed and clearly supported previously - that which you have summarily ignored in order to just repeat yourself.

The random items are not sold on the market place as random, you get what it says you are buying.

The reasons you listed are not reasons that LL would use to remove something. You think it's spam. According to the links you yourself posted, it isn't.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

They (gacha item listings) are not Spam. They do not fall under any definition of spam by LL standards.



Technically no, not at this time. I have demonstrated, however, how the Gacha scheme and the listing practices of said scheme could possibly damage the MP, as well as how they are definitely pushing at the fringes of the TOS.

Since the products are not shoes or coats, nor have anything to do with color or size, and IN FACT are advertising different items, but using the same images - creating image spam and non-clarity on the MP, that they COULD and MAY be outside the guidelines

there are shoe, coats, dresses, various sized dresses, and pretty much anything you can think of for sale in gacha machines...

Repeating yourself that it is not spam does nothing to support your argument, as you make no statements to explain why. Perhaps you are here just to fight, and not learn from discussing issues with others

Perhaps you don't understand that by LL definition it isn't spam and therefore that can not be used as an argument for their removal. That's like saying all cars must travel under the speed limit and then wanting chevys to be ticketed regardless, because you say so.. You don't make the rules, LL does.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Coming to the forums to talk about it and effect change is foolish.

How so? Elaborate.
I did, in my next line.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

LL does not pay a lick of attention to the forums.

What Linden Labs does or not do is irrelevant.

But they make the rules for the MP and SL.

We are the participants, creators and users of Second Life. We make or break this experience with what WE do, or don't do, and how we treat others who want to discuss SL issues.

Arguing your point here with other merchants who are not selling gachas on the MP is foolish. Do you really think there are that many merchants from the MP reading the forums?

Its not Linden Labs selling copyrighted items, spam items, and stupid Gacha sales schemes. That comes from the merchants of SL themselves.

Technically, since they take a cut of each sale...

This is why I tackle these issue with YOU and other users themselves, down at the grass roots. Unless you can demonstrate that it is LL promoting things - the responsibility for the success and enjoyment of SL falls on you and I.

perhaps you should go to this page
and leave a suggestion that they should create a new category just for gachas.

I'm looking forward to the future of SL - and what it offers both users and creators alike, hence why I participate on forums and discussions, to affect change one on one.

Wait, you think they will be making changes to SL? 

What has been your purpose here, in this topic and others, other than to attempt to stifle and discourage discussion?

Well, perhaps you should google "discussion" "A debate or talk about a topic." 

 

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I'll say upfront that I wish the gacha machines had never come to SL. I would surely prefer for merchants just to release products like normal then I could buy the one I want without the randomness. Since I'm not interested in spending my time feeding a machine, I never play one unless I like everything in the gacha. Even then, I usually don't bother with the machines in SL.

That said, I'm grateful for the gacha resellers because I can just do a search on the MP for the gacha that I want. Then, I can decide if I will or will not pay the price they are offering for that rare item. And really, it isn't a complex process. Most of them do use the same image. The smart ones will circle the specific gacha item being offered. The really smart ones will crop the picture in on the offered item. However, the vast majority place the name of the gacha item along with color and fit in the title and description. Over 50% of what I buy are gacha items on MP, and I've only found a couple of resellers that made it unclear what they were selling. But most importantly, I've always gotten the advertised product.

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entity0x wrote:

<snip> ...

Just seems like a horrible system to have in  Second Life, and reminds me of the gambling schemes of old. If anything this needs to be observed and strictly enforced, as I can see this could cause great confusion amongst users, and a decline in confidence in shopping in the Marketplace.

I'm having a hard time getting amped up or offended (what's the new word ... "triggered") about this issue. I mean, I was probably all of 4 or 5 years old when I learned that those toy machines with all the fancy things showing on the front were in fact loaded with 100's of eggs containing the same stupid 5 page micro-comic or badly cast plastic ring. Once I learned that lesson, I moved on.

As others have said in this thread (and others on a similar subject) the presence of Gacha items on the Marketplace is an entirely different animal. Merchants on SLM are resellers and tend to very clearly state the item being sold. Depending on the image itself is very much like assuming every burger sold by McDonalds will be the same highly stacked and properly delivered gourmet treat shown on the commercials. You gotta read the description, study for a bit ... take your time and make a well-informed choice.

Honestly? If you blaze through, barely looking and making decisions on precious little info .. you pretty much deserve to get burned. IMO anyway.

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BTW: You do know the image in your message footer is missing, right? It's kind of difficult to take you seriously when you haven't taken the time to make sure your own posts are shown properly and without broken stuff.

Just sayin' ....

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think you should use better images here, it's totally blurred.

And thats hiding something pretty important: the item description.

 

I very rarely seen cacha items without proper decription on MP.

Yes it uses the same image, because it belongs to a certain collection. If you look for a vase from colelction xyz  and the image doesn't show it... it won't sell, a own smaller detailed pic doesn't have the same impact on the buyer as seeing the thing as collection together.

 

I see totally no harm in the way it's presented.

Perhaps better keywords in your search will prevent the "issue" you see

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Hold up!!! You come here complaining about merchant in the MP, and yet you are breaking the LL trademark usage rules? You can not use Second Life in any way shape or form. https://secondlife.com/corporate/brand/trademark/unauthorized.php

"No Use in Your Branding. Do not use in the name of your business, organization, product, or service, and do not register as a trademark, service mark, or business or organization name, any Linden Lab trademark or any words or symbols virtually identical or confusingly similar to a Linden Lab trademark. This includes, but isn't limited to, our Second Life® brand name and our Eye-in-Hand logo."

Perhaps they should look into your doings here.

 

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L.L. likes transfer items over copy items thinking they will somehow make more money from them. So transfer/no copy items are effectively promoted and heavily sanctioned. Of course the opposite is the case as per usual. (Less money made overall since the vast majority would rather have copy items in most cases as few are entertained by retailing their stuff).

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Darrius Gothly wrote:


entity0x wrote:

Just seems like a horrible system to have in  Second Life, and reminds me of the gambling schemes of old. If anything this needs to be observed and strictly enforced, as I can see this could cause great confusion amongst users, and a decline in confidence in shopping in the Marketplace.

I'm having a hard time getting amped up or offended (what's the new word ... "triggered") about this issue. I mean, I was probably all of 4 or 5 years old when I learned that those toy machines with all the fancy things showing on the front were in fact loaded with 100's of eggs containing the same stupid 5 page micro-comic or badly cast plastic ring. Once I learned that lesson, I moved on.

Very cute.

I'm glad you moved on, but what does that have to do with the discussion of the impact these items may have on the Marketplace, particularly with the spammed images I'm mostly talking about, and the multiple uses of the same image but with different products?


Darrius Gothly wrote:

As others have said in this thread (and others on a similar subject) the presence of Gacha items on the Marketplace is an entirely different animal

A different playing field, but similar in practice, and has been well documented as being related to the same style of play using vending machines.

For further info on this way of marketing being used in multiplayer online social games by reading the provided ilnks, perhaps you too can come to an understanding about it.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

Merchants on SLM are resellers and tend to very clearly state the item being sold.

And some tend NOT to, and those are the ones I'm addressing - with their use of the same image to depict different products - which are not shoes, nor are they colors of a coat - and therefore DO NOT fall under listing guidelines, or at the least are pushing the boundaries of such.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

Depending on the image itself is very much like assuming every burger sold by McDonalds will be the same highly stacked and properly delivered gourmet treat shown on the commercials. You gotta read the description, study for a bit ... take your time and make a well-informed choice.

Or instead we should encourage merchants to not practice using similar images to mass list separate products, not only creating visual spam, but creating possible confusion and lack of confidence in the Marketplace - You know.. its called good listing practices.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

Honestly? If you blaze through, barely looking and making decisions on precious little info .. you pretty much deserve to get burned. IMO anyway.

I'm glad to see you are speaking honestly now, clarifying that you're following statements made aren't based in the default lies you usually spout out. The words we use...

Noone deserves to get burned. The marketplace should be a place that new and old shoppers can go to find what they want, so that their in-world SL experience is fun - and they dont get bogged down by your spammy, unclear and repetitive listings for your newest sales scheme

Your thought process has been exposed, and your lack of integrity probably in how you conduct your own business has now been exposed in your statements.


Darrius Gothly wrote:

BTW: You do know the image in your message footer is missing, right? It's kind of difficult to take you seriously when you haven't taken the time to make sure your own posts are shown properly and without broken stuff.

Although irrelevant to the current conversation, and irrelevant to whether you take me seriously or not on the current topic of discussion, thanks for the heads up.


Alwin Alcott wrote:

think you should use better images here, it's totally blurred.

And thats hiding something pretty important: the item description.

It's not hiding anything. It's blurred to protect the content of the store(s) and their Gacha listings so they can be used as an example, as well as how the page looks with a random search


Alwin Alcott wrote:

I very rarely seen cacha items without proper decription on MP.

Rarely, is an exaggeration, but at least you recognize that many sellers don't always list cacha items with proper description as to what Item you are getting


Alwin Alcott wrote:

Yes it uses the same image, because it belongs to a certain collection. If you look for a vase from colelction xyz  and the image doesn't show it... it won't sell, a own smaller detailed pic doesn't have the same impact on the buyer as seeing the thing as collection together.

So you admit there is use of the same image on repeated listings, which is only reserved and allowed on the MP for items like shoes and clothes that have different sizes or colors.

Listing guidelines haven't accounted for this type of repetitive listing, as it is relatively a new scheme going on now,and gaining steam daily - and therefore needs to be addressed.

If not addressed, we could face pages of Gacha spam, and unclear listings - which is not what the Marketplace was about when concieved


Alwin Alcott wrote:

I see totally no harm in the way it's presented.

I do, thats why I posted about it, where it came from, how it is currently being used on the MP, and the reasons I believe it doesn't belong on the MP, or at least looked at, and as someone else suggested, perhaps have its own category.


Alwin Alcott wrote:

Perhaps better keywords in your search will prevent the "issue" you see

Irrelevant to the discussion.


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Hold up!!! You come here complaining about merchant in the MP, and yet you are breaking the LL trademark usage rules? You can not use Second Life in any way shape or form.

Oo, pray tell, where have I used the Second Life trademark in my materials?


Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

"
No Use in Your Branding
.
D
o not use IN THE NAME of your business
, organization, product, or service
, and do not register as a trademark, service mark, or business or organization name,
any
or any words or symbols virtually identical or confusingly similar to a
.
This includes, but isn't limited to, our Second Life® brand name and our Eye-in-Hand logo."

Oo, pray tell, where have I used the Second Life Trademark in the name of my business? I don't even have a business, I have a website and YouTube channel to provide videos for shoppers to view my items. What's the problem? Maybe you're just not good at reading and comprehending things.

You sir, are truly a pathetic man.

I guess I must have bested your silly arguments and pointed out your lack of knowledge on the subjects presented, and you lash out with yet another personal attack?

The difference between you and I is clearly thus; I want to make SL the best place it can be - as I've seen too many good people leave for a variety of issues; that which I have documented in SL forums and others

If there is any 'violation' or question of my usage of SL, I would be sure to correct it, as there is no ill intent, no malice, nor any goal of misrepresenting myself, LL, SL or exploiting anyone.

I have nothing to fear as I am transparent, honest and ethical.

How about you, though?


Spica Inventor wrote:

L.L. likes transfer items over copy items thinking they will somehow make more money from them. So transfer/no copy items are effectively promoted and heavily sanctioned. Of course the opposite is the case as per usual. (Less money made overall since the vast majority would rather have copy items in most cases as few are entertained by retailing their stuff).

That would be fine, LL is allowed to make some money, and how they see fit.

We just need to tweak the listing guidelines a little and perhaps add a new category if Gacha is going to stay, so as to minimize the issues I have presented.

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I understand where you are coming from, OP, but I don't really have an issue with what is happening. These items are part of a set (a collection of gatcha) and they are being resold on the marketplace. They are using one image because that is the signage people who are looking for the gatcha are most familiar with.

Checking the description almost always clarifies with particular item out of the set is being sold or if it includes the entire set. Also checking the contents tab will reveal which item is included. Lastly, I understand the frustration of the same images but I also don't know how to fix it. I don't think most of the resellers can unpack and photograph these items if they also want to repackage them and sell them as they were originally intended. I could be wrong but I bought a gatcha item and thought of reselling but was flummoxed as to how to get all the items back into one box, especially since the "carrying case" it originally appeared in 'disappeared' once I rezzed it. Everything else was intact but the initial animation stuff is now gone.

 

I do not agree that these listings are spam, but I do think that maybe they should have to be sectioned off or have a checkbox of some sort to filter out all gatcha because for some items, they can overwhelm search results.

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shushpup wrote:

I understand where you are coming from, OP, but I don't really have an issue with what is happening. These items are part of a set (a collection of gatcha) and they are being resold on the marketplace. They are using one image because that is the signage people who are looking for the gatcha are most familiar with.

Checking the description almost always clarifies with particular item out of the set is being sold or if it includes the entire set. Also checking the contents tab will reveal which item is included. Lastly, I understand the frustration of the same images but I also don't know how to fix it. I don't think most of the resellers can unpack and photograph these items if they also want to repackage them and sell them as they were originally intended. I could be wrong but I bought a gatcha item and thought of reselling but was flummoxed as to how to get all the items back into one box, especially since the "carrying case" it originally appeared in 'disappeared' once I rezzed it. Everything else was intact but the initial animation stuff is now gone.

 

I do not agree that these listings are spam, but I do think that maybe they should have to be sectioned off or have a checkbox of some sort to filter out all gatcha because for some items, they can overwhelm search results.

LIke I said, the listings are kind of on the edge, as there is no real coverage of it in the listing guidelines. The debate seems to be more about what spam means - spam comes in many forms. A possible page displaying similar images (especially if all you are doing is searching gacha) to describe a variety of products (whether detailed or not) is a visual problem - and could amount to visual spam. It's okay though, we all have different opinions on what we will tolerate and thats fine.

Your suggestion about adding filters is a good solution, much like a topic I had posted long ago along similar lines regarding the spamming of "Free" or $0L items, but were in fact rentals and demos instead - the consensus is we need filters.

I like giving away freebies, and I like recieving them. I certainly don't want to filter through 100's of demo and rental items listed under $0.

I also don't want to sort through 15 Gacha listings that 1) May or may not contain the item I want (because some are NOT circled/indicated as some claim) 2) clog up the search listings and 3) Use the same image to describe a package of items.

I want clear and concise, and clearly visually differentiating images that show me what the product looks like, then I can click on it to explore further. Gacha is just gacha items - but if we dont address this, they may overwhelm the search results.

Unfiltered right now, I always get quite a few per page - enough so that I felt compelled to post this in the first place.

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