We Need To Talk About Gacha And Its Spam

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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entity0x wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

Hold up!!! You come here complaining about merchant in the MP, and yet you are breaking the LL trademark usage rules? You can not use Second Life in any way shape or form.

https://secondlife.com/corporate/brand/trademark/unauthorized.php

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Oo, pray tell, where have I used the Second Life trademark in my materials?

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

"

No Use in Your Branding

.

D

o not use IN THE NAME of your business

, organization, product, or service

, and do not register as a trademark, service mark, or business or organization name,

any

Linden Lab trademark

or any words or symbols virtually identical or confusingly similar to a

Linden Lab trademark

.

This includes, but isn't limited to, our Second Life® brand name and our Eye-in-Hand logo."

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Oo, pray tell, where have I used the Second Life Trademark in the name of my business? I don't even have a business, I have a website and YouTube channel to provide videos for shoppers to view my items. What's the problem? Maybe you're just not good at reading and comprehending things.

You sir, are truly a pathetic man.

I guess I must have bested your silly arguments and pointed out your lack of knowledge on the subjects presented, and you lash out with yet another personal attack?

The difference between you and I is clearly thus; I want to make SL the best place it can be - as I've seen too many good people leave for a variety of issues; that which I have documented in SL forums and others

If there is any 'violation' or question of my usage of SL, I would be sure to correct it, as there is no ill intent, no malice, nor any goal of misrepresenting myself, LL, SL or exploiting anyone.

I have nothing to fear as I am transparent, honest and ethical.

How about you, though?

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Did you honestly think I would make a statement like that and NOT take a screen shot?



That was taken on May 3rd.

"I have nothing to fear as I am transparent, honest and ethical." 

Really now, are you?

I would love to hear your honest, ethical, transparent reply to being caught out in a BOLD FACED LIE.

ETA.. you say you dont have a business and then have a link to said business in your tagline?!?!?

[Codex Alpha]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote;

I would love to hear your honest, ethical, transparent reply to being caught out in a BOLD FACED LIE.

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After reviewing what you said, I looked over my materials to see what the problem was, because I honestly did not know what I did wrong.I corrected the issues, hopefully, if there is any - so what's the problem now?

Any further explanation as to why I used the store name that I did,and how I title things on the internet would just amount to defending myself unnecessarily against a retard like you, and you wouldn't comprehend it anyway

If I am in contravention of any of SL's TOS, I'm happy to correct the situation.

You keep trying to imply that I am dishonest in my dealings, derailing my topic to suit your own need to dominate others - and trying to find fault in others, instead of building them up.

 

It's people like you that drive others away from Second Life with your hostile and snide manner of conversing, and your constant personal and unprovoked attacks.

Now, if there is no other possible contravention of SL rules that you see, feel free to inform me, otherwise get  back on topic - or get  out

Now watch where you are treading. By posting my store images and making public accusations instead of Pming me any problems you see (which would be helpful),  you decided to attempt to publicly shame and cause damage to my reputation and intent as a merchant on SL.

- https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#abusive-behavior

Also, you need to start checking yourself when participating in posts on this forum in the future, as you are clearly, blatantly and repeatedly in contravention of these forum guidelines;

Off Topic Content: Please keep your commentary relevant to the discussion and within the format that the forum, board or question and answer area require. (For example, in the Answers section, please follow the Q&A format of the discussion.) Content that is blatantly off topic is not permitted.

- http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Discussion_guidelines

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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entity0x wrote:

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LIke I said, the listings are kind of on the edge, as there is no real coverage of it in the listing guidelines. The debate seems to be more about what spam means - spam comes in many forms. A possible page displaying similar images (especially if all you are doing is searching gacha) to describe a variety of products (whether detailed or not) is a visual problem - and could amount to visual spam. It's okay though, we all have different opinions on what we will tolerate and thats fine.

Again, it does not matter how we define spam. It is clearly defined by LL and they have not said Gacha items fall under that definition.

Your suggestion about adding filters is a good solution, much like a topic I had posted long ago along similar lines regarding the spamming of "Free" or $0L items, but were in fact rentals and demos instead - the consensus is we need filters.

You can add your own filter during a search by putting "NOT gacha" in your search.

I like giving away freebies, and I like recieving them. I certainly don't want to filter through 100's of demo and rental items listed under $0.

I also don't want to sort through 15 Gacha listings that 1) May or may not contain the item I want (because some are NOT circled/indicated as some claim) 2) clog up the search listings and 3) Use the same image to describe a package of items.

It's the same with keyword spammers. They use the same list for all their items. If you truly feel it is spam you have the ability to flag it as such. LL has said many times they can not police the MP as it is too massive a job. Hence, the "flag this item" button. 

ETA... How many items have you come across that have ZERO description? I have come across hundreds, just a picture and item name.. That is far worse than using the same image for a group of gacha items, IMO.

I want clear and concise, and clearly visually differentiating images that show me what the product looks like, then I can click on it to explore further. Gacha is just gacha items - but if we dont address this, they may overwhelm the search results.

I want pictures that havent been doctored in Photoshop, taken under standard lighting without any filters. There are still stores with items with no pictures at all. If you don't like how the item is displayed, skip over it.

Unfiltered right now, I always get quite a few per page - enough so that I felt compelled to post this in the first place.

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[Pamela Galli]

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entity0x wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote;

I would love to hear your honest, ethical, transparent reply to being caught out in a BOLD FACED LIE.

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After reviewing what you said, I looked over my materials to see what the problem was, because I honestly did not know what I did wrong.

I corrected the issues, hopefully, if there is any - so what's the problem now?

Any further explanation as to why I used the store name that I did,and how I title things on the internet would just amount to defending myself unnecessarily against a retard like you, and you wouldn't comprehend it anyway

If I am in contravention of any of SL's TOS, I'm happy to correct the situation.

You keep trying to imply that I am dishonest in my dealings, derailing my topic to suit your own need to dominate others - and trying to find fault in others, instead of building them up.

 

It's people like you that drive others away from Second Life with your hostile and snide manner of conversing, and your constant personal and unprovoked attacks.

Now, if there is no other possible contravention of SL rules that you see, feel free to inform me, otherwise get  back on topic - or get  out

Now watch where you are treading. By posting my store images and making public accusations instead of Pming me any problems you see (which would be helpful),  you decided to attempt to publicly shame and cause damage to my reputation and intent as a merchant on SL.

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https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#abusive-behavior

Also, you need to start checking yourself when participating in posts on this forum in the future, as you are clearly, blatantly and repeatedly in contravention of these forum guidelines;

Off Topic Content

: Please keep your commentary relevant to the discussion and within the format that the forum, board or question and answer area require. (For example, in the Answers section, please follow the Q&A format of the discussion.) Content that is blatantly off topic is not permitted.

-

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Discussion_guidelines

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Thought I would quote this before it gets edited any further.

Seriously, a retard? how old are you? 

And as far as who is hostile and rude, we can read.

[Dakota Linden]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines clearly outlined what is considered spam with regards to Marketplace Listings.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#keyword-spam

"Item spam is creating more than one product listing for any single item"

"Keyword spam is the use of words (such as brand names, item names, or other terms) that have nothing to do with the item listed so that the listing will appear in search results."

There is nothing in the Marketplace Listing Guidelines nor in the Linden Lab Terms of Service, that forbids using the same image for multiple listings as long as the image shows the item being sold in the listing.

This means that sellers who use a standard Gatcha Key Texture/Picture that show the full set do not violate the rules as long as the item being sold is part of the set.

The seller should be very clear on which item or items in the set that the buyer will receive. 

If the image on the listing does not show the item that the buyer will receive, then the listing can be reported to Linden Lab using the Flag this item link that is located on every product listing on the Marketplace.

A product listing with an incorrect image should be reported to Linden Lab as Item Not as Advertised - Incorrect Listing Image.

 

 

 

 

[Rya Nitely]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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LL does not pay a lick of attention to the forums.

 

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Well, colour your face wrong.

But seriously, it might be allowed and all, but it does sound a bit trashy. If it's true what the OP is saying then it sounds worse than the sort of thing we've always complained about - like 100 listings of the same dress in different colours. Although I haven't seen the gatcha problem on MP myself, but maybe I just don't shop enough.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Rya Nitely wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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LL does not pay a lick of attention to the forums.

 

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Well, colour your face wrong.

But seriously, it might be allowed and all, but it does sound a bit trashy. If it's true what the OP is saying then it sounds worse than the sort of thing we've always complained about - like 100 listings of the same dress in different colours. Although I haven't seen the gatcha problem on MP myself, but maybe I just don't shop enough.

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I keep forgetting about Dakota.. They do pay attention to the forums..

On topic though... I do shop the MP a ton. I don't remember a day where i haven't been looking for something i wanted on the MP. Yes, i have seen gatcha items pop up, not dozens per page, but a few. If they look interesting, i open the item in a new tab.. If not, i skip over it. I have yet to see hundreds of the same dress in various colors. a dozen, maybe. The issue is no where near as bad as they make it.

Just because one person, or even a few,  feels something should be pulled from the MP does not mean the majority feel the same.

@thread

It's not a selling scheme. They are not marketed originally for people to resell.

It's not spam. A LL employee just said it wasn't.

There are ways to filter your own results. Adding NOT gacha or selecting copyable on the sidebar.

Hopefully we can have discussions without the name calling and insults. We are all supposed to be adults, or at least act like them.

[Codex Alpha]

 

Thank you very much for a more official reply to this issue.

In this topic I wanted to discuss Gacha and it's current impact on the MP;

1) My opinion that repetitve Gacha images for multiple products creates visual spam regardless of LL's official guidelines

2) My opinion that I don't like the practice because of this

3) My observation, and discovery of MANY sellers who are in fact breaking guidelines, and my attempted discretion at showing said businesses as an example with blurred images.

4) My appeal that Gacha and reselling schemes get looked at again, and for guidelines to be tightened up or clarified - since this is a relatively new scheme that I have observed lately.

5) I recognize that not ALL Gacha sellers are using the practices I have pointed out, but a SIGNIFICANT portion are. They are even using the same exact images on multiple seller accounts, even found being listed right next to each other in the same listing result.

6) Much like demo/rental items being listed in the $0 category (which are not $0 items as far as users are concerned), also need listing requirements or specific categories to clarify the MP.

I understand the MP is a way for everyone to make profits, from chump change to more - but what matters is gaining (and keeping) new users - who I have seen been driven away in droves due to this kind of substandard experience. If it's about profits, that's fine - then keep them around by facilitating an amazing experience for them.

I am privy to a large group of people who have entered Second Life and have all left 100% for a variety of reasons, hopefully my posts here demonstrate my willingness to not only improve my own experience (or I will leave too), but for others as well - in all facets of SL.

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Dakota Linden wrote:

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines clearly outlined what is considered spam with regards to Marketplace Listings.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#keyword-spam

"Item spam is creating more than one product listing for any single item"

There is nothing in the Marketplace Listing Guidelines nor in the Linden Lab Terms of Service, that forbids using the same image for multiple listings as long as the image shows the item being sold in the listing.

This means that sellers who use a standard Gatcha Key Texture/Picture that show the full set do not violate the rules as long as the item being sold is part of the set.

The seller should be very clear on which item or items in the set that the buyer will receive. 

If the image on the listing does not show the item that the buyer will receive, then the listing can be reported to Linden Lab using the Flag this item link that is located on every product listing on the Marketplace.

A product listing with an incorrect image should be reported to Linden Lab as Item Not as Advertised - Incorrect Listing Image.

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Ok, so even as spammy as I still think this is, especially when;

1) It is listed 10 times on the MP for each color it comes in

2) The same image and similar descriptions will be used for EACH product in the image - also with possible multiple colors

3) The same image can/will/is used by multiple sellers, creating an exponential presence of said image....

This is acceptable by LL guidelines.

 



Quite a bit less clear, no product highlight, description only

1) Using multiple images that are, to the eye, exactly the same

2) Tons and tons of products in the same image, no clarification as to which you are actually getting

3) Descriptions only, vary

4) Same image used with multiple products and multiple sellers

5) Opinion: Very spammy.

 

But this is acceptable by LL, correct?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Here is where it gets interesting, and where many people here want to deny there is a problem;

1) Same images used

2) No clarification

3) Description only

4) Same brand, multiple sellers

5) Different prices

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyone can find these examples doing a simple search for [item], put to 96 images per page, click on 'Newest' or "Best Selling" or whatever sorting scheme you want - and find this going on.

My position was that many of these sellers and examples are at the least pushing the boundaries of the guidelines, and even going outside of them.

It was my opinion only that this is an ugly and spammy practice, and only contributes to the confusion of the average shopper - and annoys the veteran ones.

Really, if this is how people like to shop, by making the purchase of a simple item into a Grand Easter Egg hunt, and they want to gamble with their dollars trying to guess which item they get, and having to search through multiple sellers and repeated images and listings for the same exact product - all power to them.

For the rest of us, it amounts to effective (not LL legal) spam, and either the practice needs to be strictly monitored, or another way of sorting these products so as not to turn the MP into an ugly cesspool.

Much like those spamming demo and rental products using the $0L Category - which is also currently acceptable, but also pushes at the boundaries and guidelines and also creates effective (not LL Legal) spam, we need a way to keep products in the categories they truly belong in - especially if it's filters or other methods.

THank you for your reply.

[Aethelwine]

Putting "NOT Gacha" at the end of your search terms should get rid of them, in just the same way that using "NOT demo" gets rid of demos from your search results.

 

PS. Dakota Linden, that Death forum avatar is a bit creepy, you should have a look at this it would look much more professional if you made something a bit less doom and gloom.

https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Your-Avatar/How-to-create-a-cool-forum-avatar-badge/m-p/707025

[Codex Alpha]

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Aethelwine wrote:

Putting "NOT Gacha" at the end of your search terms should get rid of them, in just the same way that using "NOT demo" gets rid of demos from your search results.

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Although that is a good tip for everyone in the meantime, a long term solution must be found. Many users are unaware of how to use operators in their search terms, -especially new users.

However, using "NOT Gacha" only works on items with gacha in the name, a more permanent category would be needed to negate them in a search.

The point of this topic is to discuss how we can better organize these things, minimize visual spam and confusion, and add filters and categories to the MP to handle emerging marketing 'schemes'.

[Alwin Alcott]

i think you'r really on a crusade.... most gacha items for sale have a right description, giving it the pic of the set makes it even more clear for the ones that are interested in what collection it belongs.

 Just a few perhaps miss some keywords, but most are for sure not.

Take a breath, use the search as advised. Skip what you don't want to see

Or ask LL to write a special algoritthm for a search for you and we can all live in peace.

[Darrius Gothly]

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entity0x wrote:

The point of this topic is to discuss how we can better organize these things, minimize visual spam and confusion, and add filters and categories to the MP to handle emerging marketing 'schemes'.

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From where I sit and based on my own personal perception, the "point of this topic" really appears to be you attempting to assert your personal preference on the entirety of the Marketplace. As has been stated by many, including a member of the Linden Family, the issues you find intolerable are in fact of no concern to most everyone else.

There are many MANY more issues that need addressing. Issues that affect Merchant income, Product delivery, Sales and Accounting statistics .. things that REALLY matter to a majority of people. Whether or not the same image "seems" to be used in a few listings is ... way down the list of "issues" to be found in need of attention.

To put it bluntly, it seems to bother you intensely. But it also seems to bug only you. There is a simple work-around so it will stop bugging you. Lacking a consensus among the larger population, I recommend you control your own side of the wire and let this windmill spin.

[Codex Alpha]

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Darrius Gothly wrote:

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entity0x wrote:

The point of this topic is to discuss how we can better organize these things, minimize visual spam and confusion, and add filters and categories to the MP to handle emerging marketing 'schemes'.

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From where I sit and based on my own personal perception, the "point of this topic" really appears to be you attempting to assert your personal preference on the entirety of the Marketplace.

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No, you quoted my point, and that is what it is.

 

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Alwin Alcott wrote:

i think you'r really on a crusade.... most gacha items for sale have a right description, giving it the pic of the set makes it even more clear for the ones that are interested in what collection it belongs.

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Not really. I just make a case for something and like to be thorough.

[Dakota Linden]

Greetings all!

The use of an image that contains 10000 items does not violate the Terms of Service nor the Marketplace Listing Guidelines as long as the item being sold in the listing is included in the image.

The item name and/or description should clearly indicate the item that is being sold in the listing.

Most of the Gatcha creators have a master key image that shows all of the items in the particular set that was created.

Many of the creators also number the items. 

This is seen in the name of the item on the images that you included.

As an example:

18-8f8 Table Brown (Bag)

8f8 is either the Gatcha/Gacha creator or the Content Set Name. 

18 Is the item number from the set

Table Brown (Bag) is the name of the actual item.

Anyone interested in that particular set will quickly see that the seller is offering the 8f8 Item #18 Brown Table that is still in the bag.

The Terms of Service and Marketplace Listing Guidelines do not set prices for sellers.  Different sellers may offer the same used items for different prices.

If you do believe that changes should be made to the Marketplace Listing Guidelines or the Linden Lab Terms of Service, we encourage you to submit your suggestions in writing to the Linden Lab corporate office.

http://www.lindenlab.com/

 

 

[Alwin Alcott]

you should add a kudo box to your name

[GypsyPhenomenon]

A lot of people sell their gacha items under the Used catagory, which I think is a good place for it until Gacha items get their own catagory, which hopefully will be soon.  I don't think Gachas are going away, if anything, they are becoming more and more popular because most items found in Gacaha events are made by top designers and are amazingly realistic and very low prim.

[Scynite]

I suspect that is from out-of-SL 3d item houses getting into the game.

In -game creators are on the way out, or  at least the gap between the beginners and pros just got wider.

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Scynite wrote:

I suspect that is from out-of-SL 3d item houses getting into the game.

In -game creators are on the way out, or  at least the gap between the beginners and pros just got wider.

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You do realize you can not create mesh inworld, right? There has always been a gap between beginners and pros. Hence the two terms. A beginner painter is in no way as good as Van Gogh. My kids are learning Maya and blender in school. Soon as they have it down they will be making mesh for me. Mainly because i tried for a very longtime to learn it and got nothing but a cube and a migraine.

[Pamela Galli]

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Dakota Linden wrote:

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The Marketplace Listing Guidelines clearly outlined what is considered spam with regards to Marketplace Listings.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/listing_guidelines#keyword-spam

"Item spam is creating more than one product listing for any single item"

"

Keyword spam is the use of words (such as brand names, item names, or other terms) that have nothing to do with the item listed so that the listing will appear in search results."

There is nothing in the Marketplace Listing Guidelines nor in the Linden Lab Terms of Service, that forbids using the same image for multiple listings as long as the image shows the item being sold in the listing.

This means that sellers who use a standard Gatcha Key Texture/Picture that show the full set do not violate the rules as long as the item being sold is part of the set.

The seller should be very clear on which item or items in the set that the buyer will receive. 

If the image on the listing does not show the item that the buyer will receive, then the listing can be reported to Linden Lab using the Flag this item link that is located on every product listing on the Marketplace.

A product listing with an incorrect image should be reported to Linden Lab as Item Not as Advertised - Incorrect Listing Image.

 

 

 

 

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You would think this reply by Dakota would settle the matter of whether the OP is manufacturing a problem or not,  but no, not at all. 

[Pamela Galli]

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Dakota Linden wrote:

Greetings all!

The use of an image that contains 10000 items does not violate the Terms of Service nor the Marketplace Listing Guidelines as long as the item being sold in the listing is included in the image.

The item name and/or description should clearly indicate the item that is being sold in the listing.

Most of the Gatcha creators have a master key image that shows all of the items in the particular set that was created.

Many of the creators also number the items. 

This is seen in the name of the item on the images that you included.

As an example:

18-8f8 Table Brown (Bag)

8f8 is either the Gatcha/Gacha creator or the Content Set Name. 

18 Is the item number from the set

Table Brown (Bag) is the name of the actual item.

Anyone interested in that particular set will quickly see that the seller is offering the 8f8 Item #18 Brown Table that is still in the bag.

The Terms of Service and Marketplace Listing Guidelines do not set prices for sellers.  Different sellers may offer the same used items for different prices.

If you do believe that changes should be made to the Marketplace Listing Guidelines or the Linden Lab Terms of Service, we encourage you to submit your suggestions in writing to the Linden Lab corporate office.

http://www.lindenlab.com/

 

 

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This second attempt by Dakota to correct the OPs claims falls on deaf ears as much as the first one.

[Codex Alpha]

You truly are a snide and bitter one, aren't you.

It is my opinion that Gacha and its use of images is spam, and that will never change.

Dakota demonstrated to me that it is legal to do so, as long as the individual item is outlined in the image.

It is my opinion that it is a crappy system, and I've already had to report purchases I've made myself where the images were actually wrong (due to the uploader's fatigue at creating 30 listings and uploaded the wrong image).

I'm sorry you don't like my opinion that Gacha needs its own category, and that it's current implementation on the Marketplace equates to visual spam.

Add to that the misuse of keywords in many of the same listings, it is a blight on the Marketplace.

in my opinion. Its okay to have my opinion is it not.

[Pamela Galli]

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entity0x wrote:

You truly are a snide and bitter one, aren't you.

It is my opinion that Gacha and its use of images is spam, and that will never change.

Dakota demonstrated to me that it is legal to do so, as long as the individual item is outlined in the image.

It is my opinion that it is a crappy system, and I've already had to report purchases I've made myself where the images were actually wrong (due to the uploader's fatigue at creating 30 listings and uploaded the wrong image).

I'm sorry you don't like my opinion that Gacha needs its own category, and that it's current implementation on the Marketplace equates to visual spam.

Add to that the misuse of keywords in many of the same listings, it is a blight on the Marketplace.

in my opinion. Its okay to have my opinion is it not.

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I am not the only one who "doesn't like your opinion" -- everyone in the thread, including Dakota, twice -- told you that your opinion was based on incorrect assumptions, that your problem was not widely shared, and that in any case it was easily solved. And that, no, pictures do not constitute "spam".

And you have proven completely impervious to enlightenment. But then what does it matter when every post is about some negative experience of yours that you try to frame as a widely experienced one, and usually the fault of some elite group from which you are excluded.

[Codex Alpha]

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter.

 

"We experience SL and form an opinion about it based on where we are, where we go, the people we see and interact with, and what we see. This is unavoidable (and of course the same applies to RL as well!), but, because SL is so extremely complex and has such diverse groups of people, our own ‘opinion’ is always biased and limited to our own world-view. Meanwhile, just across the grid, there might be a completely different group with a radically different view of SL. Both groups, of course, will claim ‘their’ view is the correct one, even if they defend the opposite view…"

- https://gwynethllewelyn.net/2014/03/28/understanding-second-lifes-culture/

 

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No Flaming: "Flames" are hostile or disruptive posts, or messages intended to incite an angry response. Spirited discussion and constructive disagreement are welcome, but name-calling and airing of grievances are not appropriate in our discussion areas.

Off Topic Content: Please keep your commentary relevant to the discussion and within the format that the forum, board or question and answer area require.

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