now and 4 years ago

[Penny Patton]

There's still a huge benefit to having a visible presence in a popular sim. The malls most affected are those that were malls for the sake of malls, not the shops supporting creative and interesting environments. Even when most of the shopping traffic moves to the marketplace, simply having your content displayed in a popular sim puts more eyes on your work, and so more sales.

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

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Phil Deakins wrote:

But you are free to think that the marketplace hasn't had a negative impact on stores if you wish. 

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 Are you still talking about malls, or are you talking about content creator's stores now? If the former, you've got a memory problem because this statement contradicts even the first paragraph of your post here.

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I was just pointing out that your "sand" was in fact bedrock when the stores were built, and LL turned it into sand later, when they unscrupulously started and pushed the marketplace.

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.

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Clearly, I was never talking about malls, regardless of you wishing that I'm "still talking about malls". The clue was in my use of the word "stores", which you quoted more than once. Perhaps it was too hard to spot, eh?

 

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And you've failed to make a pursuasive argument. If that "bedrock" were so solid, the existance of an online shopping venue wouldn't be an issue.

The purpose of in-world malls only served to provide content creators with more visibility.

That's it. An online store achieves that much more easily. In addition, it makes shopping easier for the consumer. Browsing a content creator's selection of products is much more easily done in the online store format than camming around an in-world shop (or multiple in-world shops spread across multiple sims).

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The existance of a web-based shopping venues was never a problem. On-Rez and Xstreet were around for a long time before LL produced the marketplace, and stores were still built on bedrock, not the sand you stated. Perhaps you don't go back that far.

Stores, Penny, stores. Not malls.

It may be easier to shop in a web-based system, but that isn't anything to do with what I said, which was that the stores that failed because of the marketplace, were built on bedrock and not on sand. You'd said they were built on sand.

Sorry, but there's no point in you continuing to argue about it, because you're wrong. That is unless you want to continue only discussing malls - something which I neither mentioned nor meant, as is clearly seen in the parts of my posts that you've quoted.

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

Also, I would suggest using better terminology. "Malls" are not "stores". A mall is a collection of stores. The stores themselves are run by the content creators. The malls are simply landlords renting out space to the stores run by content creators.

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And I would suggest that you go to SpecSavers. I never talked about malls. You only need to read my posts that you quoted to see that I've only ever mentioned stores. You're the one who keeps trying to change it - perhaps because you know that that you have no argument against what I said about stores.

ETA: Perhaps it will help you if I quote what I said that you're arguing against:-

"Your "building on sand" comment is nonsense. The stores that have folded because of the marketplace didn't build on sand. They built on bedrock. Some time later, LL turned the bedrock into sand."

That 's it - in total - on the second page of this thread. Notice my cunning use of the word "stores", and the complete absence of the word "malls"

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

This thread and the arguments I've been addressing, on the other hand, are about the complaint that the marketplace has driven out mall owners. 

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It's become clear that you only want to talk about malls, to the extent of assuming that other people (me, for instance) are only talking malls when they are obviously talking something quite different. But this thread isn't about malls. It's about stores, malls, clubs, and no doubt the author meant other things too. Read the first post again

You may have a thing about malls, but this isn't about them. It's about a number of things, including them.

[Penny Patton]

When I tried to clarify with you, you were very specific in that it was not content creator run businesses where content creators are selling products, you were talking about, then you brought up "stores" again. 

 You're the one that seems to have a hard time with words here. So you're not talking about content creators who sell things, and you're not talking about landowners who rent shop space out to them. If it's neither of these entities is there any way you could maybe explain just who these mysterious "stores" are then?

[Phil Deakins]

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Qie Niangao wrote:

The Lab's strategy seems to be to let in-world business wane in favor of Marketplace.

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That may be what they are knowingly doing but I don't believe it is, or ever was, their strategy. It's my belief that someone at LL realised that a lot of money is being made in SL by selling stuff, and they thought that it would be good get of a cut of it for LL. I believe that's all it ever was, and still is.

Then, with that view in mind, they unscrupulously plugged their marketplace, even to the extent of putting "Welcome Markeplace User" on the login page for all users, regardless of whether or not the user ever used the marketplace. It may be that they've realised the effect on land and tier income since then, and they may have decided that it's worth it to LL. But I believe that the only reason for the marketplace's creation and continuation is to get a cut of the money that was, and is, being made from selling stuff. I don't believe they ever thought that inword stores would wane, but I do think that they are now delighted that are getting a cut from most purchases, and therefore don't care that inworld stores are waning. It's totally in keeping with their attitude to paying customers.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

When I tried to clarify with you, you were very specific in that it was 

not

 content creator run businesses where content creators are selling products, you were talking about, then you brought up "stores" again. 

 You're the one that seems to have a hard time with words here. So you're not talking about content creators who sell things, and you're not talking about landowners who rent shop space out to them. If it's neither of these entities is there any way you could maybe explain just who these mysterious "stores" are then?

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I don't know where you got that from, but it wasn't from anything I wrote. Imagination?

Perhaps you are refering to my second post on page 2, which was a reply to you. I started it by saying, "I didn't say that businesses have folded due to the marketplace." and went on talk about stores. Read it again.

If you were refering to that part, I'll explain why I said that "I didn't say that businesses have folded due to the marketplace." It's because businesses that had stores can continue in the marketplace and, if the stores don't produce enough to make them worthwhile keeping open because of tier, they can close, but the business can continue - in the marketplace.

If you didn't understand it, you could have asked. It would have been much better than putting words, such as "malls", in my mouth. You know that doesn't make sense.

Incidentally, I don't believe I ever mentioned "content creator run businesses" or any similar phrase. If you imagine that I did, please quote it. To the best of my knowledge, you're the only one who's used that phrase in this thread.

[Penny Patton]

 I'll refresh your memory. Here's the post of mine, which was directed towards a post by someone else entirely.

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Penny Patton wrote:

 The only people hurt are those who rent out shop space for stores and malls. But that simply wasn't a sustainable business model so long as LL's goal is to draw in more users. The domino effect described only applies to those whose business model can only be described as "building on sand".

 Also, contrary to that argument, there is still a market for in-world exposure. Content creators are best served by putting their content in front of large numbers of people. You can't do that with either the Marketplace, or a dingy shop tucked away in some forgotten sim, you do that by renting shop space in popular clubs, role-play sims, etcetera.

 

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 I was very clear about what I was talking about, that malls and others who primarily rent land to in-world vendors are the ones biggest hit by the marketplace, not individual sellers because they're still selling, just with different tools.

 Then you marched in and disagreed with my statement, that malls and such were building on sand. Now here you are saying you weren't talking about them at all. If so THEN WHY HAVE YOU BEEN ARGUING?

[Phil Deakins]

It makes a change, but you are right about your post that I first replied to. It was about malls. But you were wrong from there on in. Everything I've written has been about stores - mentioned every time I posted. If you'd gone to SpecSavers you might have noticed that and said that you were only talking about malls, instead of all the silly posts, trying to make out that I was talking about malls when it was blatantly ovbious that I wasn't. My frequent use of the word "stores" was a really good clue

Since you ask, I've been arguing because you've been saying such wrong things in your replies to my posts. Any more wrong things for me?

[greek Wingtips]

I agree with Penny she hits the nail on the head "who primarily rent land to in-world vendors are the ones biggest hit by the marketplace, not individual sellers because they're still selling, just with different tools."

I do belive LL pushed marketplace for thier own benifit which as to take a cut from the sellers no doubt

[Phil Deakins]

I don't disagree with her on the part you quoted. I found fault when she said such businesses were built on sand. I misunderstood, and thought she meant stores but even malls were built on bedrock back then. LL later turned the bedrock into sand by pushing the marketplace so intensively.

Judging by the many threads and discussion on the subject, it has to be assumed that stores, which I think you mean by "individual sellers", have been closing because of the marketplace. Many of the closed store businesses have transfered to the marketplace but the stores have closed.

[Penny Patton]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

It makes a change, but you are right about your post that I first replied to. It was about malls. But you were wrong from there on in. Everything I've written has been about stores - mentioned every time I posted. If you'd gone to SpecSavers you might have noticed that and said that you were only talking about malls, instead of all the silly posts, trying to make out that I was talking about malls when it was blatantly ovbious that I wasn't. My frequent use of the word "stores" was a really good clue

Since you ask, I've been arguing because you've been saying such wrong things in your replies to my posts. Any more wrong things for me?

---

 

When I say  "Ice cream cones are great" and you state you disagree, then we argue for several posts over the tastiness of "cones" and you turn around and go "ah-hah! I wasn't talking about ice cream cones! I never mentioned them! All i said was "cones", not ice cream!" no one in their right mind is going to read that exchange and think "Gee, Penny should have known Phil wasn't talking about ice cream even tho he was replying to a statement about ice cream!"

[Penny Patton]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

 I found fault when she said such businesses were built on sand. I misunderstood, and thought she meant stores but even malls were built on bedrock back then. LL later turned the bedrock into sand by pushing the marketplace so intensively.

 

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SecondLife didn't even come into being until we were in a post-Amazon.com world. Anyone who had been paying attention knew how this was going to play out, and content creators were placing more emphasis on the Marketplace's precursors before LL nabbed them up.

 You could even say LL nabbed up xStreet and OnRez in response to that already in-progress transition towards web based shopping.

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

When I say  "Ice cream cones are great" and you state you disagree, then we argue for several posts over the tastiness of "cones" and you turn around and go "ah-hah! I wasn't talking about ice cream cones! I never mentioned them! All i said was "cones", not ice cream!" no one in their right mind is going to read that exchange and think "Gee, Penny should have known Phil wasn't talking about ice cream even tho he was replying to a statement about ice cream!"

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Don't be silly, Penny. I said immediately what I meant - stores. And I said the same word time and again in all of my posts. My first post to you was just one sentence - about stores, and it said stores. I do recommend SpecSavers for you

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

SecondLife didn't even come into being until we were in a post-Amazon.com world. Anyone who had been paying attention knew how this was going to play out, and content creators were placing more emphasis on the Marketplace's precursors before LL nabbed them up.

You could even say LL nabbed up xStreet and OnRez in response to that already in-progress transition towards web based shopping.

---

What? What post-Amazon.com world?

Xstreet and, to a lesser extent, OnRez had been around for quite a while before LL bought them. The were being used by some people but there was no "in-progress transition" towards them. LL didn't respond to that non-existant transition. They decided they wanted a cut of the large amounts of money that was being made by users selling stuff in SL. It was only a response to someone's idea that "we" can get a cut of it. Actually, I didn't mind that. Xstreet and OnRez weren't as problem for stores, and showed no likelihood of ever being one. What I minded was the unscrupulous way that LL went about promoting their website mall, specifically at the expense of their own paying customers.

[Penny Patton]

 You're not very good at this "gracefully admitting you made a mistake" thing, are you?

 You misunderstood a statement I made and argued against what you thought I said. Any misunderstanding on my part is justifiable because it was clear what I said so there was no reason for me to believe you meant something entirely different.

 All this spinning and jabbing are just digging your hole deeper.

 

[Couldbe Yue]

Considering the sheer frustration of inworld compared to the easy money of the marketplace, anyone who thinks of setting up inworld as anything but a ego boost these days is borderline mad. It just isn't cost effective for most.  Even at 30% commission, the marketplace will offer better returns for most people than tier.

Sad but true.

 

 

 

[Penny Patton]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Penny Patton wrote:

SecondLife didn't even come into being until we were in a post-Amazon.com world. Anyone who had been paying attention knew how this was going to play out, and content creators were placing more emphasis on the Marketplace's precursors before LL nabbed them up.

You could even say LL nabbed up xStreet and OnRez in response to that already in-progress transition towards web based shopping.

---

What? What post-Amazon.com world?

Xstreet and, to a lesser extent, OnRez had been around for quite a while before LL bought them. The were being used by some people but there was no "

in-progress transition

" towards them. LL didn't respond to that non-existant transition. They decided they wanted a cut of the large amounts of money that was being made by users selling stuff in SL. It was only a response to someone's idea that "we" can get a cut of it. Actually, I didn't mind that. Xstreet and OnRez weren't as problem for stores, and showed no likelihood of ever being one. What I minded was the unscrupulous way that LL went about promoting their website mall, specifically at the expense of their own paying customers.

---

Seriously? You're not familiar with Amazon.com or how it changed retail?

It's kind of a big deal.

Also, you're just plain wrong about there not being growing amount of business occuring on xStreet and OnRez. I know personally from first setting up my accounts on those sites in 2005-2006 until LL bought them out, more and more of my business came from them. Before LL bought them out, having a presence in in-world malls was becoming unnecessarily redundant. Like a lot of merchants, I'd drawn down my in-world presence to a single main store and one or two strategically placed satellite shops in popular club/RP sims well before LL bought out OnRez and xStreet for exactly that reason.

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

You misunderstood a statement I made and argued against what you thought I said. Any misunderstanding on my part is justifiable because it was clear what I said so there was no reason for me to believe you meant something entirely different.

All this spinning and jabbing are just digging your hole deeper. 

---

I'm only digging deeper because I'm trying to catch you up. I'm too gentlemanly to leave a lady on her own down there in the dark where you are 

I already said I misunderstood what you wrote and you wrote it only once. Any misunderstanding on your part is definitely not justifiable, or understandable, because you misunderstood *every* post of mine - every single one. The thing you misunderstood was written in plain sight in *every* post of mine. How do you justify misunderstanding so many times when it was in front of your eyes every time? I can understand anyone missing it the first time, but every time? Naa... that's intentional.

[Phil Deakins]

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Couldbe Yue wrote:

Considering the sheer frustration of inworld compared to the easy money of the marketplace, anyone who thinks of setting up inworld as anything but a ego boost these days is borderline mad. It just isn't cost effective for most.  Even at 30% commission, the marketplace will offer better returns for most people than tier.

Sad but true. 

---

You may have a point but, personally, I've never found any frustrations with my inworld store. Perhaps you mean the tiny stores that are trying to grow bigger. It makes perfect sense for them to open up in the marketplace and not in SL.

But the thing about the marketplace is that it's never been anything but broken and frustrating for sellers, (I'm going by the threads in the Merchants sub-forum because I've never used it), and right now it's broken worse than ever. The frustrations with it are enormous.

I sometimes read in that sub-forum and think that all the sellers who went to the marketplace are suffering the frustrations because they followed LL like sheep, allowing LL to take their money. Yes I know that, once LL started unscrupulously plugging the marketplace everywhere they could, they felt they had to get on board, because others would and did. But they still look like sheep who were led to the slaughter, and they've been getting the huge frustrations ever since. More now than ever, but it's always had frustrations.

On the other hand, the only frustration that an SL store comes with is making tier but that's only for tiny stories. The frustrations associated with the marketplace are for all sellers there. I'd rather have the single store frustration than the myriad of marketplace frustrations.

[Phil Deakins]

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Penny Patton wrote:

Seriously? You're not familiar with Amazon.com or how it changed retail?

It's kind of a big deal.

---

I know Amazon, of course. I buy from them. But I read your "post-Amazon.com world" as meaning that Amazon was in the past. It could have meant either. I'm not aware that Amazon changed retail though. I don't think it did. It may have helped towards the increase in online shopping but it didn't cause it.

---

Also, you're just plain wrong about there not being growing amount of business occuring on xStreet and OnRez. I know personally from first setting up my accounts on those sites in 2005-2006 until LL bought them out, more and more of my business came from them. Before LL bought them out, having a presence in in-world malls was becoming unnecessarily redundant. Like a lot of merchants, I'd drawn down my in-world presence to a single main store and one or two strategically placed satellite shops in popular club/RP sims well before LL bought out OnRez and xStreet for exactly that reason.

---

I don't think I'm wrong about there not being an "in-progress transition" towards Xstreet and OnRez. Perhaps it existed for some sellers but not for others. For instance, a small store that also sold on them, and that couldn't get seen very well in SL, could easily find that it's are selling more and more on them than in the store, but that would be a skewed perspective. Similarly, a large store that also sold on them, and that could get seen in SL, could easily find that sales on them were tiny compared to the store, which may also be a skewed perspective.

The judgement would have been very subjective. I didn't see any trend towrds them, so I don't think there was one. You think there was, but neither of us can show anything one way or the other. We only have opinions based on what we personally saw. I saw no trend, whereas you apparently did. I had a very big store. I don't know what you had back then - small enough for external sales to be significant? As far as I'm concerned, there was no trend towards external shopping that was noteworthy enough for LL to see it and decide to get on it. LL's decision was solely about skimming a cut of the massive sales in SL, imo.

[Dillon Levenque]

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

---

Penny Patton wrote:

SecondLife didn't even come into being until we were in a post-Amazon.com world. Anyone who had been paying attention knew how this was going to play out, and content creators were placing more emphasis on the Marketplace's precursors before LL nabbed them up.

You could even say LL nabbed up xStreet and OnRez in response to that already in-progress transition towards web based shopping.

---

What? What post-Amazon.com world?

Xstreet and, to a lesser extent, OnRez had been around for quite a while before LL bought them. The were being used by some people but there was no "

in-progress transition

" towards them. LL didn't respond to that non-existant transition. They decided they wanted a cut of the large amounts of money that was being made by users selling stuff in SL. It was only a response to someone's idea that "we" can get a cut of it. Actually, I didn't mind that. Xstreet and OnRez weren't as problem for stores, and showed no likelihood of ever being one. What I minded was the unscrupulous way that LL went about promoting their website mall, specifically at the expense of their own paying customers.

---

I took the 'transition' comment to mean a transition in shopper behavior, not seller behavior. It is certainly true in my case and I tend to believe it is true for most residents with my time constraints: I don't get nearly as much inworld time as I'd like, simply because I have too much to do in RL. I was always bothered by the amount of time it took to find something I liked shopping inworld. An hour spent shopping for a couple of simple accessories or something new that I hadn't thought of before was a real drag on my slife.

Being able to do that in little fits and starts online during the day was a godsend. There are still plenty of shops I visit and for those I don't even bother looking at the marketplace, I just go. There are also some things I only buy in person (hair, of course, but other things too). But having the ability to buy things online during the day and have them waiting for me at home when I log in has been a huge boon. 

 

[Phil Deakins]

That's what I took it to mean too.