Women degrading advertising in search

[Freya Mokusei]

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

No, Freya, no! That way lies madness (I oughta know).

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Madness has the best folks. Always fun conversation!

Can't put out the fiiiiiire.

[Tari Landar]

I tend to find people that choose to speak for the masses, as if their opinion is the ultimate authority, extremely weird creatures...and not weird in a good way.

Then again my opinion is about as relevant as the made up statistics people have about males playing females being involved in...I don't even know wth to call this, to be honest.

Maybe you should just avoid adult things, if you can't adult.

 

[ValorWhit]

I would try to jump in a defend men's point of view but it looks like I would just be piling on.

BTW, what exactly would you call degrading?  Right now I am logged and have search opened.  I see a mix of adult and moderate places in the ads at top.  Of the adult places i have to scroll over to see a drawing of two mostly nude women looking provocative.  Is that degrading?  There is also a picture of a nude woman from behind sitting in a chair with her arms tied in a criss-cross from elbows to wrists.  Is that degrading?  Am I a bad person for thinking the tied woman is much more visually appealing, artistic and tastefully done of the ads?

[Rhonda Huntress]

Yes, you are a bad boy and need to be punished.  You should go the The Dominion right now!

[Phil Deakins]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

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Dillon Levenque wrote:

No, Freya, no! That way lies madness (I oughta know).

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Madness has the best folks. Always fun conversation!

Can't put out the fiiiiiire.

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In that case, you need to fight fire with fire, so log in a lot so that Maddy can get you

[BarcodeBrian]

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Conall DeCuir wrote:

and thankfully not every woman is a hardcore feminist

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I agree with everything you wrote but this does bother me.

Not the point you are trying to make - rather, the wording with assumed definitions. Since a feminist is simply one who supports feminism, I'll concentrate on this word refering to the belief rather than the person.

The definition of feminism is misconstrued far too much by so many people lately, but that doesn't mean its definition has changed. To keep it short, I'll use this from Mirriam Webster: "feminism: the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities—feminism in a sentence." Broadening its meaning to include anything else is demeaning. There really is no such thing as a 'hardcore' feminist; you are either a feminist or you are not.

Using your sexuality or kinks to help define your position on feminism is absurd. You can choose to live a BDSM lifestyle with your partner in real life, and still be a feminist. You can even play the role in Second Life that females should not have the choice to leave this demeaning role, and still be a feminist. It is a fantasy. If you hold the position in real life that females do not have the option whether or not to choose this role, then I will say you are not a feminist.

The OP's position is not displaying feminism at all. It is displaying intolerance.

[steph Arnott]

Then you never understood the OPs comments in the first place.

[DejaHo]

 I kinda enjoy the Lola ads.

 ETA Perhaps I should have written lolas as I really enjoy both.

[Pussycat Catnap]

 

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

Why are almost all of the advertisements in the adult search women degrading? Sex is sex. Men and women having fun. Sex is not degrading women! I don't accept: "Then don't tick the adult box in search". Degration of women has nothing to do with adult or whatever. It is simply wrong!

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There's an extreme amount of misogyny in SL.

You will see people sit here and say "why don't other people just post more" and "well that is what sells" but these people ignore the impact of silencing, **bleep**-shaming, and others being driven away by a hostile environment.

Look to real life fields - women and minorities were shut out of many places by a host of factors, the least of which was Jim Crow laws. The bulk of it was social pressure, condemnation, and 'reverse accusations'.

Consider:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/03/10/protests-against-campus-racism-dont-threaten-free-speech-they-embrace-it/

This is one example of a common phenomenon. Thsi thread is a replicate of that issue. That when people who have been marginalized call it out, they get attacked and accused of the very thing they are seeking to stop.

Police call blacks racist at the very moments they murder them, rapists call women sluts as they rape them.

- Victim blaming is a global passtime.

And it can be very effective at creating communities that might "legally" or "technically" allow marginalized people - but for whome those people will face strong hostility when they actually show up.

 

Creating an overwhelming presence of violence against women (Gor, BDSM that is mostly male-dom, and even dolcett) and people of color depicted as rapists of white women (go SL search the term "interracial") does NOT encourage women and minorites to show up here to create an alternative dialog... it causes the bulk of us to turn away and reject the platform.

 

You have to be a pretty hardened fighter to withstand or be able to move past and ignore all of that and find the alternatives.

 

It is perfectly possible to represent sexuality, and even D/s, without making it about downpression of women. It is also perfectly possible to represent minority communities, without it being about racist stereotypes. All of this ALSO exists in Second Life - but it exists outside of the easy spotlight. The easy spotlight ends up on the negative representations, because there is too much of a philosophy of tolerance of hate. Tolerance of hate is not tolerance, but enablement.

 

EDIT:

I already know all the usual ways my post will get attacked so I'm cutting out from here for a few days... but I wanted to add this bit about my story with SL:

I'm 2nd generation South American, my family story believes we're related to the Inca near where the Andes and Amazon come in contact. So when I joined SL the first thing I did was search for Peru and Inca because I wanted to learn about my roots - and I ended up in a Gorean sex sim's "free stuff" shop... I almost left SL at that point. The reaction I got when I started to discuss this part of my ancestry on SLU was absolutely toxic, beginning with a rather mild comment that was in reply to what might be a fantasy ideal society: which spiralized out of control as I got emotional in response to the toxicity.

- I believe many others would have left, and that this is why I have so much trouble finding other people in SL who either wish to explore "non-eurocentric communities" such as those of that part of my ancestry, or 'positive empowerement sexuality' such as what I see in so many communities about sexuality OUTSIDE of SL.

There is no reason representations of minorites have to be about showing them as criminals, rapists, etc. There is no reason representations of sexuality have to be about putting down women. There is no reason representations of BDSM has to be about enslaving women. Are these what these 3 things are in reality? Not at all. BDSMers who defend the violent representations of women in SL, would be outraged if I sugested that their community was nothing but misogyny in RL. They know better, and have schooled me on that in the past. But that is the impression that so much of SL's BDSM community creates, and the most vocal voice it speaks with inside of SL.

 EDIT 2:

https://my.secondlife.com/pussycat.catnap/snapshots/56e51c0d9934e01c2b000001

[Lexia Moonstone]

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

Yes, Imnotgoing sideways, you are absolutely right! This is exactly what I think! It is all about money.

Misogynist men are ruling SL and we will not be able to do a thing about it!

But, I will not stop to point out to these sick men. As I am a person and I am paying real money to SL.

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If it's all about $ I'd like to point out some of the richest people in SL are women, SL's first RL millionaire was a women. 

 

[BarcodeBrian]

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steph Arnott wrote:

Then you never understood the OPs comments in the first place.

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I have read and understood all of the OP's comments, and replied to one reference from another poster.

Perhaps you should read it all a little bit slower. All posts, including in the future. It can help prevent your rampant miscomprehensions throughout the forum.

[BarcodeBrian]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

Why are almost all of the advertisements in the adult search women degrading? Sex is sex. Men and women having fun. Sex is not degrading women! I don't accept: "Then don't tick the adult box in search". Degration of women has nothing to do with adult or whatever. It is simply wrong!

---

There's an extreme amount of misogyny in SL.

You will see people sit here and say "why don't other people just post more" and "well that is what sells" but these people ignore the impact of silencing, **bleep**-shaming, and others being driven away by a hostile environment.

Look to real life fields - women and minorities were shut out of many places by a host of factors, the least of which was Jim Crow laws. The bulk of it was social pressure, condemnation, and 'reverse accusations'.

Consider:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/03/10/protests-against-campus-racism-dont-threaten-free-speech-they-embrace-it/

This is one example of a common phenomenon. Thsi thread is a replicate of that issue. That when people who have been marginalized call it out, they get attacked and accused of the very thing they are seeking to stop.

Police call blacks racist at the very moments they murder them, rapists call women sluts as they rape them.

- Victim blaming is a global passtime.

And it can be very effective at creating communities that might "legally" or "technically" allow marginalized people - but for whome those people will face strong hostility when they actually show up.

 

Creating an overwhelming presence of violence against women (Gor, BDSM that is mostly male-dom, and even dolcett) and people of color depicted as rapists of white women (go SL search the term "interracial") does NOT encourage women and minorites to show up here to create an alternative dialog... it causes the bulk of us to turn away and reject the platform.

 

You have to be a pretty hardened fighter to withstand or be able to move past and ignore all of that and find the alternatives.

 

It is perfectly possible to represent sexuality, and even D/s, without making it about downpression of women. It is also perfectly possible to represent minority communities, without it being about racist stereotypes. All of this ALSO exists in Second Life - but it exists outside of the easy spotlight. The easy spotlight ends up on the negative representations, because there is too much of a philosophy of tolerance of hate. Tolerance of hate is not tolerance, but enablement.

 

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There is as well, a great deal of femdom fantasy in SL. You can find the same issues reversed in about every way for each gender. That the opposite, (male Dominants) is more common to find here is likely relative to the real world fantasies. Either way, those wishing to portray themselves as the submissive, (even the ABUSED sub), greatly outnumber those who choose to dominate. There may be no 'official' source, but I will challenge you to meet in any of the most popular (and unpopular) of these communities to verify, if you do not believe this.

The same can be said of rape fantasies. Where the rapist is not representing a person of color still far outnumber the other way around. If one's skin is dark, are they not allowed to roleplay the fantasy? Do you deny that there is a desire among many for a dark skin partner, dominant or not? Or for a lighter skinned partner among browner people?

I won't deny that there will be some racist roleplay, but it is often assumed to be the case when it is nothing more than a normal, common fetish. You can't really eliminate one without the other.

The tolerance expected is not toward hate. It is expected for the existence of a variety of fantasies, even those you want no part of participating in yourself. I'm sure real life racism and misogyny will be at play in some occasions, but discerning them beyond a doubt will be a rare case.

 

[Conall DeCuir]

I actually agree with you Barcode. Her posting was not about feminism but intolerance. Still, i call man-bashing women (which she did as she generalized) hardcore feminists because they forgot that feminism would be about equality ... equality not only in the matter of having rights and duties but also in the matter of having equal rights in choosing what one wants to do.

She should not forget that we are playing in second life and kinks, wishes, needs and fantasies are plentifull and not all women want to be equal in their fantasies .. for once.

[Bradford Mint]

I think it's terrible. The whole notion of women degrading advertising. What's wrong with advertising, it has its place, not everyone is an advert hater.

 

Besides, from my experience, it's not just women that degrade advertising, men degrade it too. I hear and see plenty of comments from men about negativity and such towards adverts.

 

Hint to OP: I think you meant to say "adverts degrading women", changes the whole context you see?

[CarlottaAdagio]

Bradford Mint said: "Hint to OP: I think you meant to say "adverts degrading women", changes the whole context you see?"

Yes, Bradford. I apologize. That is exactly what I meant. I made a grammatical error because I am not a native English speaker. I am sorry you did not understand it right away. I'm glad the others did. If you can speak German we can discuss it far more properly without grammatical errors, ok?

　

Steph Arnott said: "Then you never understood the OPs comments in the first place."

Yes, you are right. Wait, maybe it's more like they did not WANT to understand. Thanks for your postings. I wish more people were able to discuss a topic as reasonably as you.

　

Pussycat Catnap: Everything you said is utterly true. Thanks for the link. Degrading women of black color is even an escalation of discrimination. I have concentrated a great deal on studying these interracial rape groups. It is a disgrace. It makes me sick! I even reported them to SL. These men are so poor in character. They should seek for psychological help.

I still think that the problem is that SL is a melting pot for sick and kinky people. A lot of people who have psychological problems. In SL they seek for power to compansate for their powerless, insecure characters. No sane and healthy person would have the desire to degrade any group of human beings.

Please remember the TOS : Intolerance

Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

 SL is a melting pot for

sick and kinky

people.

A lot of people who have psychological problems.

These men are so poor in character.

No sane and healthy person...

Please remember the TOS :

Intolerance

 

---

Lol, irony. Bolded especially is your classification of sick and kinky being the same, which is super telling and suuuuper out-dated. Like, Victorian.

Not surprising that you're only interested in responding to those who seem - at least by your reply to them - to reinforce your point of view, continues to prove that I picked the right approach. Am certain, for example, that Immy didn't agree. Would be interested to see how many continue to agree with these clearly authoritarian statements of yours.

Also loving the idea that BDSM in SL is perceived to be "male-dominated". Yeah, no - if actual research had been performed you'd have found that many of the businesses you complain about are owned and operated by real life women. This is common in Second Life, women provide a lot of content and activity. Secondly (but still obviously), men in Second Life are drawn to locations where women are made welcome and likely to be hanging out, and so misogyny would logically be a poor business model to adopt (and demonstrated repeatedly by the failures of a minority of SL businesses that gain this reputation). I don't understand how you think SL maintains its economy at all in this regard, because any analysis of this effect is missing in your posts.

I've noticed a few regressive arguments seem really good at misunderstanding how kinks and fetishes work psychologically, how they often deliberately transgress into socially taboo territory. In the best possible expression of irony, kinksters only want to degrade people consensually - and individually as part of play. The people who "degrade groups of human beings" are the authoritarians who attempt to reduce the agency of free-choosing adults by creating rules based on ill-informed ideology.

Kink is not only the most reasonable and tolerant option, it's also more loving and more equal than anything the out-dated and poorly-informed mindset that started this thread can produce. Can guarantee it's your loss if you see natural and healthy desires and lusts to be expressions of hatred and sickness. Our place of freedom becomes your battleground to suppress tolerance and openness, to establish a puritanical and inorganic monstrosity that pleases nobody. That's pretty sad, as well as being entirely unobtainable. It also seems an entirely backwards point of view to me - the kinky folk are usually the best.

ETA: Sorry to anyone bugged by the constant edits to my post - trying to phrase things more carefully and explain-as-I-go just in case. All done now.

[Bradford Mint]

And yet when presented with something of a sexual nature that you don't wish to be involved in, you call those who do, "sick and psychologically damaged".

 

The very definition of the the TOS reference that you just quoted.

 

Step away from the keyboard, you just lost your argument!

[Phil Deakins]

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

Why are almost all of the advertisements in the adult search women degrading? Sex is sex. Men and women having fun. Sex is not degrading women! I don't accept: "Then don't tick the adult box in search". Degration of women has nothing to do with adult or whatever. It is simply wrong! And if I search for some ordinary shop that is located on an adult land I have to tick the adult box and have to suffer this women degrading stuff. I am so tired looking at open pussies and male boots pressing down a naked woman's head!

---

I haven't joined in with this topic but I'm now interested to know which search you are talking about - inworld search (website or viewer) or marketplace. I ask because I never use the marketplace search and I don't recall ever seeing women being degraded in the inworld search ads. I do see adult ads showing sexy women, of course, but I haven't seen "open pussies" (that's ugly, anyway) or "male boots pressing down on a naked woman's head", or anything like that.

 

[Kelli May]

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

 

...

I still think that the problem is that SL is a melting pot for sick and kinky people. A lot of people who have psychological problems. In SL they seek for power to compansate for their powerless, insecure characters. No sane and healthy person would have the desire to degrade any group of human beings.

Please remember the TOS :

Intolerance

...

 

---

But you think calling people sick and kinky is tolerant?

[Madelaine McMasters]

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CarlottaAdagio wrote:

I still think that the problem is that SL is a melting pot for sick and kinky people. A lot of people who have psychological problems. In SL they seek for power to compansate for their powerless, insecure characters. No sane and healthy person would have the desire to degrade any group of human beings.

Please remember the TOS :

Intolerance

Combating intolerance is a cornerstone of Second Life's Community Standards. Actions that marginalize, belittle, or defame individuals or groups inhibit the satisfying exchange of ideas and diminish the Second Life community as a whole. The use of derogatory or demeaning language or images in reference to another Resident's race, ethnicity, gender, religion, or sexual orientation is never allowed in Second Life.

---

Freya's gonna need a new needle for her irony meter, I can feel it. (I have some in my toolbox, Freya. I'll bring one to your incineration).

Carlotta, do you think it helps your argument to come here making the unsupported accusation that SL is a melting pot for sick and kinky people, even the insane? It seems to me that calling a healthy person insane would be demeaning. And so you're exhibiting the behavior you protest. Few things frustrate me more than watching someone with a passionate belief fail to advance their argument, or worse yet, damage it.

I have no doubt that misogyny and racism abounds in RL and therefore SL, which mirrors it. And it may well be that people like me, with very active imaginations, don't realize we're perpetuating all this. I'd love to be shown the error of my ways, but you're not helping.

[Freya Mokusei]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Freya's gonna need a new needle for her irony meter, I can feel it. (I have some in my toolbox, Freya. I'll bring one to your incineration).

---

I had to switch it off pre-emptively when I saw this thread appear - it's prone to exploding violently on this forum and scattering iron all over the place. My generalisation meter's been generally working (the only way it works), however.



It's no secret I've had my bones-to-pick with advertising and commercialism in SL, and I'm frequently regarded as being progressive to a fault in my social and political opinions and behaviour. I take issue with certain types of roleplayed behaviour in SL on a personal level (I wouldn't choose to participate, but have never gone out of my way to make beef), so this kind of thing could theoretically appeal. In absolute fairness, I could see half a dozen ways where, given a few changes to the terms being used, I'd be on entirely the other side of this argument (if I didn't have such a huge issue with organised authority, and if it didn't expect LL to "do something about this").

But applying poor understandings of sociology to bad research, and drawing logical causation out of thin air just because it feels right and then criticising your entire audience on-top of that mess - that's a sure-fire way to escape the risk of being taken seriously.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Freya Mokusei wrote:

Applying poor understandings of sociology to bad research, and drawing logical causation out of thin air just because it

feels

right and then criticising your

entire

audience on-top of that mess - that's a sure-fire way to escape the risk of being taken seriously.

---

It's a sure-fire way, and perhaps the easiest, but I have other ways to escape that risk.

[EchoRose]

I've been reading this thread with some amusement and some disgust, to be honest.  Carlotta, you've found offensive communities on SL and you're aghast.  Got it.  Where you're completely wrong is that YOU have to suffer this stuff.  Maybe in RL if you stumbled upon an actual club, say something called Misogyne, and someone tried to put a boot down on your head, you'd have a case.  But this isn't RL, this is SL.  And there are places from one corner of SL to the other full of kinks, fetishes, etc. for anyone's tastes.  Do I find some of them outright disgusting?  Absolutely.  But acting like I have no control over whether or not I go to them is me painting myself as a victim, which I am not and neither are you.  The day, thank God, of women as helpless little flowers who need somebody to come and save them are over, in my opinion.  Metaphorically, that's the same thing as somebody coming to save you from degrading advertising.  I am against censorship anywhere consenting adults are and, as an adult in SL, it's your job to save yourself from it.  If you can't do that, it's time to leave SL. 

As for the quality of some of the men in SL and their degradation of women, I'd hazard a guess that you'll find a similar % of men in RL who hate/fear women as these posers do...some commenting on this very board.  As an intelligent woman, it's your job to weed them out and move past them which is made infinitely easier in SL because you can TP away and never look upon their offensiveness again.

[Phil Deakins]

To be fair to Carlotta, you didn't address her problem. She can't simply TP away from it, or choose to not go to where it is, as you suggested. She is faced with it when she uses search with Adult checked, and she can't turn those images off, not without leaving SL or not doing any searches with Adult checked. I'm sure she enjoys adult stuff just like many of the rest of us do, and there is no reason for her not to.

What she hates to see are images of what she considers to be the degradation of women. I haven't thought out an opinion about her thoughts, so I can't comment on them, but I will say that it is a norm in men to want to force women, and it is a norm in women to want to be forced. Note that in both cases I said "a norm", not "the norm". It may or may not be in everyone - I have no idea - but I do know that it is a norm in both genders, so what might appear to be degradation (of either gender) isn't necessarily that at all.

I'm merely pointing out that your post didn't address her complaint.

[Freya Mokusei]

Assuming the OP's in control of her computer and her connection to SL then she definitely can control the content that comes down the tubes. Blocking specific images or specific data-providers is no big deal and can be done in a few minutes.

However, she also wants LL to do this for her (and everyone else), and also to use her offense-barometer (where - to be true to Carlotta - she sees kink as a sickness) as a guideline for SL as a whole. This is the second half of her problem, and the part that most people in this thread seem to take issue with.

You're right that EchoRose doesn't address enough of the underlying issue, it's just the only option available besides leaving SL. There's no reasonable or realistic way to address her complaint in full - people with intent like this are not going to be happy knowing this content still exists, just now outside of their cone of vision. The desire to try and force reality into line with their specific wants is too strong.

[Further: EHow - How to Deal with Authoritarian Personalities, Wiki - Authoritarian Personality]