ChinRey Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Kristin Linden wrote: We encourage you to review the Community Guidelines Done! As far as I can see, there's nothing there that can explain why the thread that triggered this discussion was removed. One of the posts in the thread should probably have been removed because of offensive language and another post - one of mine- should probably have been removed too, not because of what I wrote myself but because I quoted and replied to that offensive language post. But that's really not enough reason to remove the entire thread. The main problem however is that none of the participants in the discussion have been given any kind of explanation why. Add to that the other seemingly arbitary post removals that have been mentioned through this discussion and the result is that at the moment nobody can be really sure what is allowed and what isn't allowed in the forums. A forum like this can only work properly if the participants have reason to trust the moderators' judegement and right now, with no explanations whatsoever, I can't see that we have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote: Kristin Linden wrote: We encourage you to review the Community Guidelines Done! As far as I can see, there's nothing there that can explain why the thread that triggered this discussion was removed. One of the posts in the thread should probably have been removed because of offensive language and another post - one of mine- should probably have been removed too, not because of what I wrote myself but because I quoted and replied to that offensive language post. But that's really not enough reason to remove the entire thread. The main problem however is that none of the participants in the discussion have been given any kind of explanation why. Add to that the other seemingly arbitary post removals that have been mentioned through this discussion and the result is that at the moment nobody can be really sure what is allowed and what isn't allowed in the forums. A forum like this can only work properly if the participants have reason to trust the moderators' judegement and right now, with no explanations whatsoever, I can't see that we have that. Chin, the answer won't be in the ToS or the CG. It is here, "or was simply not appropriate for discussion on the forums", quoted from Kristin. That is the only justification they need. As I pointed out in my post on the previous page, if the thread is deemed to be flame bait they will delete it. If it is deemed to be overtly or overly contentious they will delete it. No explanations, no warnings. Go to the Forum Feedback and look at the long thread there. This was all discussed with Aveolae or whatever her name is. https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Forums-Feedback/Clean-up-the-Forums/td-p/2898500 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 MissDeeMeanur wrote: ChinRey wrote: Kristin Linden wrote: We encourage you to review the Community Guidelines Done! As far as I can see, there's nothing there that can explain why the thread that triggered this discussion was removed. Did you miss this bit, ChinRey? Under the section heading "We moderate at our discretion" it says "the actions taken (or not taken) by Linden Lab and our moderators are at our sole discretion, and we may act without warning or explanation." Which effectively means that there is little point in users observing any of the Community Standards, Guidelines or even the Terms of Service, because LL does not have to satisfy its own professed principal goal of "treating others with respect". Dee Monstrably I stand corrected, it is explicitly stated. It boggles the mind that, as I was discussing inworld with Laurin of Sorbet, that some are are still unclear on all this or pretending to be bewildered by it. This has been going on for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Here is my concern: This forum is now the only place where both new And committed members of SL can find significant moderated support, news, information, and in depth discussion of SL. Much of this is critically important to decisions I make about my business, which I depend on to support my family. Yet I have the impression that LL does not value the forum as the valuable support and information asset it is. Yes, I very much value effective moderation, which is why I report violations several times a day, usually acted upon. I want to do my part to enable and encourage the moderators to identify spam, for example -- and I wish there was some way to block all the Land forums spam* or at least individual posters. It is difficult to wade through all the land advertisements and employment postings. Please, LL, recognize the importance of the forums to those seeking information, insights, and support from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 MissDeeMeanur wrote: Did you miss this bit, ChinRey? No I didn't but I treated it separately from the rest of the guidelines. That's what the last paragraph in my reply is about - and to some degree the second paragraph too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote: Please, LL, recognize the importance of the forums to those seeking information, insights, and support from them. There is at least one popular alternative forum dedicated to Second Life but outside of LL's control. Maybe we should all move there instead... (Edit: I'm tempted to post a link to another forum here just to see what would happen. One of the ways to define those unknown limits is of course to test them out and that link would definitely be testing. It wouldn't be a valid test though. Whether they admit it or not, the moderators know they've gone to far. So they're treading on eggshells at the moment and may well accept posts they would normally have rejected for a while.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: Please, LL, recognize the importance of the forums to those seeking information, insights, and support from them. There is at least one popular alternative forum dedicated to Second Life but outside of LL's control. Maybe we should all move there instead... Don't you have to sign a declaration of absolute political correctness to participate there, like airbnb require? Dee Manding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote: Here is my concern: This forum is now the only place where both new And committed members of SL can find significant moderated support, news, information, and in depth discussion of SL. Much of this is critically important to decisions I make about my business, which I depend on to support my family. Yet I have the impression that LL does not value the forum as the valuable support and information asset it is. Yes, I very much value effective moderation, which is why I report violations several times a day, usually acted upon. I want to do my part to enable and encourage the moderators to identify spam, for example -- and I wish there was some way to block all the Land forums spam* or at least individual posters. It is difficult to wade through all the land advertisements and employment postings. Please, LL, recognize the importance of the forums to those seeking information, insights, and support from them. Wasn't this at the heart of the issue that Void was referring to Pam. The recognition by the Lab that its customers are providing a free service for them? And that in the end, the Lab cares not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Derek Torvalar wrote: Tis the insidious nature of POOP. This is off on a tangent, Derek, but what does Perl Object-Oriented Persistence have to do with this forum? I always assumed it was written in php. Then again, if it really is perl code, that would explain a few things currently discussed in another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote: Derek Torvalar wrote: Tis the insidious nature of POOP. This is off on a tangent, Derek, but what does Perl Object-Oriented Persistence have to do with this forum? I always assumed it was written in php. Then again, if it really is perl code, that would explain a few things currently discussed in another thread. LOL Persecutory Oppressive Optimism and Positivity Used to be referred to as Disneyfication here a few years ago when that policy came to the fore. Now it is applicable on a more widespread basis throughout Society in general, SJW for example who are the new White Knights. POOP is what got that thread whacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qie Niangao Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote: ... I wish there was some way to block all the Land forums spam* or at least individual posters. It is difficult to wade through all the land advertisements and employment postings. ... No kidding. If many of these are repeat offenders (as they seem overwhelmingly to be) it should be possible to reduce the volume of that junk by investing a tiny bit more moderation effort up-front, to save a bunch of work later. Instead of gently moving the mis-posted content to the appropriate Grandmother Sales forum, leaving behind a post saying the original had moved, instead delete the post and warn the offender that the business is suspended from any forums posts for a week. (That would involve some kind of dynamic moderation triggers, or extra effort to really monitor that the business doesn't post from other accounts, but I bet the recidivism rate would be low.) While we're on the topic of moderation (isn't this titillating, discussing such a forbidden subject?), I'm reminded of the "Bozo Ban" approach, in which the ban recipient is never told they've been banned, and indeed as far as they can tell while logged in with the banned account, they can still post and all their posts still appear -- but only to them. The posts get no replies because nobody else even sees them. Rather than getting all fussy about being banned, creating alternate accounts, etc., they instead eventually observe that nobody has the slightest interest in anything they post, and simply go away. (Obviously if they have an alt account, it's easy enough to discover what's afoot, but it can work for some problem posters, for a while.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Qie Niangao wrote: I'm reminded of the "Bozo Ban" approach, in which the ban recipient is never told they've been banned, and indeed as far as they can tell while logged in with the banned account, they can still post and all their posts still appear -- but only to them. The posts get no replies because nobody else even sees them. So THAT is what has been happening to me for the last ten years. And there was me thinking it was because Sus was deleting the posts I was responding to, which used to then remove any subposts . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote (Edit: I'm tempted to post a link to another forum here just to see what would happen. One of the ways to define those unknown limits is of course to test them out and that link would definitely be testing. It wouldn't be a valid test though. Whether they admit it or not, the moderators know they've gone to far. So they're treading on eggshells at the moment and may well accept posts they would normally have rejected for a while.) I am confidently expecting this thread to be moved to the Forums Feedback section (when Kristin discovers it) as it would represent fair and valid commentary in a relevant location. Not that relevance of location seems to be something that deters those posting here rather than in ANSWERS. Dee Niable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Torvalar Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 MissDeeMeanur wrote: ChinRey wrote (Edit: I'm tempted to post a link to another forum here just to see what would happen. One of the ways to define those unknown limits is of course to test them out and that link would definitely be testing. It wouldn't be a valid test though. Whether they admit it or not, the moderators know they've gone to far. So they're treading on eggshells at the moment and may well accept posts they would normally have rejected for a while.) I am confidently expecting this thread to be moved to the Forums Feedback section (when Kirstin discovers it) as it would represent fair and valid commentary in a relevant location. Not that relevance of location seems to be something that deters those posting here rather than in ANSWERS. I am not so sure. I am reminded of Lasky's satirical thread entitled "I lost my Breadable" that was moved to the Tech forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: Please, LL, recognize the importance of the forums to those seeking information, insights, and support from them. There is at least one popular alternative forum dedicated to Second Life but outside of LL's control. Maybe we should all move there instead... (Edit: I'm tempted to post a link to another forum here just to see what would happen. One of the ways to define those unknown limits is of course to test them out and that link would definitely be testing. It wouldn't be a valid test though. Whether they admit it or not, the moderators know they've gone to far. So they're treading on eggshells at the moment and may well accept posts they would normally have rejected for a while.) Look at how much activity there is in the SL Discussion forum there, or how many say they rarely or never log in. Look at SL Reddit. For SL discussion, news, and support,, this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Derek Torvalar wrote I am reminded of Lasky's satirical thread entitled "I lost my Breadable" that was moved to the Tech forum. Erm, I am afraid (and I admitted as much to Scylla) that was my fault. I think it was at a time that n00b moderators were being assaulted by gangs of cult-members here in order to remove critics, and I used psyop persuasive techniques to demonstrate that the authorities were manipulable, even in ludicrous circumstances. I think I made my point. Dee Spicable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhonda Huntress Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Qie Niangao wrote: they instead eventually observe that nobody has the slightest interest in anything they post, and simply go away. One would hope that same goes for trolls in general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote For SL discussion, news, and suppression,, this is it. FIFY Pam! Dee Pendable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissDeeMeanur Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Rhonda Huntress wrote: Qie Niangao wrote: they instead eventually observe that nobody has the slightest interest in anything they post, and simply go away. One would hope that same goes for trolls in general. One does, especially those who wish death on other posters. Dee Testable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 Qie Niangao wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: ... I wish there was some way to block all the Land forums spam* or at least individual posters. It is difficult to wade through all the land advertisements and employment postings. ... No kidding. If many of these are repeat offenders (as they seem overwhelmingly to be) it should be possible to reduce the volume of that junk by investing a tiny bit more moderation effort up-front, to save a bunch of work later. Instead of gently moving the mis-posted content to the appropriate Grandmother Sales forum, leaving behind a post saying the original had moved, instead delete the post and warn the offender that the business is suspended from any forums posts for a week. (That would involve some kind of dynamic moderation triggers, or extra effort to really monitor that the business doesn't post from other accounts, but I bet the recidivism rate would be low.) While we're on the topic of moderation (isn't this titillating, discussing such a forbidden subject?), I'm reminded of the "Bozo Ban" approach, in which the ban recipient is never told they've been banned, and indeed as far as they can tell while logged in with the banned account, they can still post and all their posts still appear -- but only to them. The posts get no replies because nobody else even sees them. Rather than getting all fussy about being banned, creating alternate accounts, etc., they instead eventually observe that nobody has the slightest interest in anything they post, and simply go away. (Obviously if they have an alt account, it's easy enough to discover what's afoot, but it can work for some problem posters, for a while.) Re bolded: I have been asking for this treatment of repeat spammers, as part of my RICs of them. They are really abusing the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted January 13, 2017 Author Share Posted January 13, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote: Look at how much activity there is in the SL Discussion forum there, or how many say they rarely or never log in. Another reason for us to move on over and shake it up then. Oh well, we got a good non-answer from a Linden and I suspect that's all we can expect from there. Can't blame her for it either really. She's got a job that both requires and forbids her to answer and that's never easy. I have occasionally quoted great people in my posts here, I think it's time for one from Oz Linden (I found it in Prok's profile): "Sorry.... 'why' is not one of the questions we're usually allowed to answer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted January 13, 2017 Share Posted January 13, 2017 ChinRey wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: Look at how much activity there is in the SL Discussion forum there, or how many say they rarely or never log in. Another reason for us to move on over and shake it up then. Oh well, we got a good non-answer from a Linden and I suspect that's all we can expect from there. Can't blame her for it either really. She's got a job that both requires and forbids her to answer and that's never easy. I have occasionally quoted great people in my posts here, I think it's time for one from Oz Linden (I found it in Prok's profile): "Sorry.... 'why' is not one of the questions we're usually allowed to answer" --------------------------------- Actually it doesn't matter that much whether there are other place(s) where SL is discussed, this is the one and only official SL forum. And it is worth any TLC LL is willing to throw its way. It just doesn't make sense that the forum is in the hands of those who don't display much interest in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Jetaime Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Pamela Galli wrote: ChinRey wrote: Pamela Galli wrote: Look at how much activity there is in the SL Discussion forum there, or how many say they rarely or never log in. Another reason for us to move on over and shake it up then. Oh well, we got a good non-answer from a Linden and I suspect that's all we can expect from there. Can't blame her for it either really. She's got a job that both requires and forbids her to answer and that's never easy. I have occasionally quoted great people in my posts here, I think it's time for one from Oz Linden (I found it in Prok's profile): "Sorry.... 'why' is not one of the questions we're usually allowed to answer" --------------------------------- Actually it doesn't matter that much whether there are other place(s) where SL is discussed, this is the one and only official SL forum. And it is worth any TLC LL is willing to throw its way. It just doesn't make sense that the forum is in the hands of those who don't display much interest in it. I agree with you Pam. Not only should this forum remain, but moderation should take place that allows the free exchange of ideas, without trolls and spam, with minimum rules to keep the discussion civil, even if the discussion in general or individual views conflict with those of LL. A lot of people have no clue about the other forum either and it's certainly against the rules here to post a link to it. So there wouldn't be many newer people that inject fresh blood into discussions or pose new topics, which is vital to vibrant discussions IMO. The more views that are heard about SL the better it is for not only business owners but people who care about SL, and even LL too, although apparently they don't care. In addition a lot of people read these forums but never post here. I am sure a lot of them come here not only to get answers to their problems, technical or not, but to keep abreast of issues in general the effect SL, other than those in the official blogs. Lastly that other forum can eat up people for lunch if there is disagreement. Hardly conducive to get other's who may be a bit shy or thin skinned to join in a discussion. As a side note, I agree about all the posts for Land or Employment should be moved to a side forum, like Forum Feedback, where those interested can go but the rest of us don't have to put up with the spam. The Land general discussion can remain but should be that, not a place to post rentals and questions that should be posted in Answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pamela Galli Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Also, for those who have not been here that long (maybe including some Lindens?), this is how there came to be all the land spam: In the beginning, no advertisements other than in one's signature* was allowed. The land owners staged a protest that took the form of spamming the Commerce forum (I believe it was the Merchant forum). LL gave in and made them all these land forums to advertise in. Which is perfectly fine, except if one reads All Posts, as I do, so I can see what is new across the board, it is a nightmare of land spam on top of the illegal spamming, and the spamming of, say, clubs, which gets around the Guidelines by posting fake employment ad threads every day. They don't bump the thread they made yesterday, they start a new thread! This goes on year after year. Every now and then we grasp at some little sign of change, but it never materializes. And it would really take so little to mean so much to so many. * Those of us in the SL Exchange / Xstreet forums spent a lot of time designing and critiquing our signatures, and managed to extract an agreement from the commerce team handling the migration to Marketplace, that we could keep 1) our reviews and 2) our signatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChinRey Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 Amethyst Jetaime wrote: Lastly that other forum can eat up people for lunch if there is disagreement. Hardly conducive to get other's who may be a bit shy or thin skinned to join in a discussion. I believe everybody here will agree that I'm not shy and not particularly thin skinned either but I still know that from personal experience. That place can be vicious. In case there's any doubt, I wasn't seriously suggesting to move over there of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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