Size Matters

[Bree Giffen]

I've been thinking about the new SL coming out and in the interest of general discussion I would like to hear your thoughts on avatar and buildings/furniture sizing. In the current SL, we have oversizing issues caused by faults in the client and human nature.

What do you think will be needed in the new SL that would keep avatar sizes in the normal range and what would be needed so that homes, furniture, etc also be kept in check? 

[LlewLlwyd]

DRACONIAN rules imposed as part of the new ToS regarding acceptably normal avatar sizes, and accurate scaling of builds, with a team of inworld moderators equipped with virtual laser measuring pointers, demolishing outsize dog-kennels and miniature Eiffel Towers, terminating with extreme prejudice Barbiezillas or Ultrahulks as a matter of course, and withholding of the mandatory licence to create avatars and constructions, with fines for continued flouting of the protocols!

***Or maybe you could just avoid looking at things that don't fit your perception of "normality"***

[Pamela Galli]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

I've been thinking about the new SL coming out and in the interest of general discussion I would like to hear your thoughts on avatar and buildings/furniture sizing. In the current SL, we have oversizing issues caused by faults in the client and human nature.

What do you think will be needed in the new SL that would keep avatar sizes in the normal range and what would be needed so that homes, furniture, etc also be kept in check? 

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They can just adjust the default camera position.  The only people now who need gigantic rooms (and by extension gigantic furniture and gigantic avis,  are those who keep the default. 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

They should set up the avatar adjustment tools to reflect actual height not some arbitrary number like it is now. That's it. It is no one's place to decide how tall avatars should be or what proportions should be used for houses, furniture etc.  That is for the individual avatar owner and creators to decide.  

Besides, what is normal range?  In RL an adult can be anywhere from less than 3ft tall to 8ft or more tall.  While I admit the extremes are unusual, they do exist.

If you want your world to only include avatars and builds in what you consider 'normal' range then you can do that by buying land and restricting it to avi's and buildings acceptable to you.  But you have no right to say avatar height and builds should be what YOU consider normal elsewhere and they should be kept in check somehow.  Are you wanting to also 'keep in check' abnormal body proportions like super large breasts and butts?  If you're so concerned by height why not all proportions?

BTW, My avatar reflects my RL height.  But if someone wants to be 8 ft tall or 3ft tall that's cool with me.

[Nova Convair]

nope. It's not that easy.

Arrange your furniture and sizes like in RL and walk through the room. Oh doesn't work? (except you set the furniture to phantom) You don't see where you go? (camera issues)

Now sit down on a chair, legs under the table. You will not walk to the chair and sit down. The sit target and animation will force you into the position. Don't stand up or you will be cataputed into the ceiling. (except you set all to phantom - furniture you can walk through are sooo realistic)

SL is not RL not even a little !!! So it's absolutely normal that sizes don't match.

I'm looking forward if SL2 will make things better. Since it is supposed to have nothing to do with SL there is hope, or not, who knows, all pure speculation atm.

However. Avatars will always look like the people want them to look. That means you will never get a population of avatars  like in RL. Not even close! With more freedom to create it will surely become even more ... ummm . different? ridiculous? exaggerated?

 

[Pamela Galli]

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Nova Convair wrote:

nope. It's not that easy.

Arrange your furniture and sizes like in RL and walk through the room. Oh doesn't work? (except you set the furniture to phantom) You don't see where you go? (camera issues)

Now sit down on a chair, legs under the table. You will not walk to the chair and sit down. The sit target and animation will force you into the position. Don't stand up or you will be cataputed into the ceiling. (except you set all to phantom - furniture you can walk through are sooo realistic)

SL is not RL not even a little !!! So it's absolutely normal that sizes don't match.

I'm looking forward if SL2 will make things better. Since it is supposed to have nothing to do with SL there is hope, or not, who knows, all pure speculation atm.

However. Avatars will always look like the people want them to look. That means you will never get a population of avatars  like in RL. Not even close! With more freedom to create it will surely become even more ... ummm . different? ridiculous? exaggerated?

 

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The question was about scale.

[Bree Giffen]

I wouldn't want draconian rules or height enforcers. I think just having a well thought out design in the avatar and building tools could gently coerce people into having a reasonable height and standard sized builds.

I think there are people in-world who are trying to make a normal avatar but are getting the size wrong because of the faulty avatar creation design. Having a clearly visible height listed in the avatar creation tool is a start. Maybe a warning when you get too tall or too short during creation.

Perhaps the tool can force people who are very tall to look lanky or very short to look child-like. I just don't want to see a normal looking avatar that is too tall or too short. With certain heights comes certain physical traits just as it is in real life.

A smarter camera view would certainly help. Maybe having that, plus normal height avatars would encourage a more standard sizing in builds. Perhaps if LL provides a standard avatar sized mannequin and encourages everyone to build to one size? Ebbe did mention they are starting with the expert builders. I hope those builders can lead by example and provide correct life sized builds from the very start.

Any more ideas? 

[Jasmyn Vaher]

SL Is not RL (same applies to any other virtual world). And one of it's main appeals is the chance it gives to create an avatar, or building or furniture items the way every one of us wants. If "NG" would take that freedom away, if it was going to make an avatar look lanky because it is let's say 2 meters tall, or childlike because it's short...well, I wouldn't even give it a try

If someone doesn't like anyone else's avatar, or buildings, or furniture items because of their height or size,..well, it's as easy as ignoring them and let people create and enjoy their leisure time in a virtual world  any way they want

 

 

[Kelli May]

An avatar creation tool that makes the height clear to the creator, as well as a base avatar that has reasonable human proportions. An overall scale adjustment that shrinks and enlarges the avatar evenly, rather than stretching and squashing it on the vertical axis. A number of starter avs that are of realistic heights and proportions, as well as larger and smaller avs that are labelled as such (superhero male, Amazonian female, Tolkeinesque dwarf etc.). A default camera position that doesn't make the avatar look smaller than it is. A collision box that is a more accurate fit to avatar size.

All these things would be a start. None of them would force anyone to adopt a height they don't want, but they'd inform users of the choices they are making about the size of their avatar. I'd still be happy to see giants, fae and tinies in SL but the current height inflation is as much to the detriment of large avatars as it is to the 'normal' sized: if everyone is a giant, then nobody is.

[irihapeti]

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Kelli May wrote:

An avatar creation tool that makes the height clear to the creator, as well as a base avatar that has reasonable human proportions. An overall scale adjustment that shrinks and enlarges the avatar evenly, rather than stretching and squashing it on the vertical axis..

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^^ that ^^

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

I wouldn't want draconian rules or height enforcers. I think just having a well thought out design in the avatar and building tools could gently coerce people into having a reasonable height and standard sized builds.

I think there are people in-world who are trying to make a normal avatar but are getting the size wrong because of the faulty avatar creation design. Having a clearly visible height listed in the avatar creation tool is a start. Maybe a warning when you get too tall or too short during creation.

Perhaps the tool can force people who are very tall to look lanky or very short to look child-like. I just don't want to see a normal looking avatar that is too tall or too short. With certain heights comes certain physical traits just as it is in real life.

A smarter camera view would certainly help. Maybe having that, plus normal height avatars would encourage a more standard sizing in builds. Perhaps if LL provides a standard avatar sized mannequin and encourages everyone to build to one size? Ebbe did mention they are starting with the expert builders. I hope those builders can lead by example and provide correct life sized builds from the very start.

Any more ideas? 

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In RL, there are very tall people that are not lanky and very short ones that aren't kids.  I know several extremely tall men in RL and they are about as far from lanky as you can get.  The majority are muscular and one is a bit fat. If I took a pic of them without anything in the background to use as a size reference you wouldn't know how tall they were.

Give people the tools that accurately reflect height so that those that want to be a certain height or within what they consider normal range can acheive that.  But warnings are not needed if someone goes outside the a set of arbitrary norms.

As far as building is concerned, the market will enforce what people want.  If the majority of avatars in SL are within what you define as 'normal' the chances are houses will be built to that scale.  However, there will be exceptions to fit the 'other' avatars people choose. 

[Pussycat Catnap]

Its been 15 years since SL's basic setup was developed, and the rest of the industry has sorted all of these things out LONG AGO.

- The fact that most competing MMOs have come and died in very fast lifecycles has actually helped here in sorting out this kind of stuff. There is a well set norm now, and proven solutions to keeping user experience vibrant and consistent without endangering creativity and variety.

 

Make height detection reflective of the actual height of the avatar.

Make the default avatars, when ALL relevant dials are set to the 'middle' setting, proportional. Make deviation away from the middle equal in each direction it deviates.

Make movement and camera controls reflective of industry norms (auto walk/run, WASD + arrow, and local keybinding, mouse turning with left mouse, mouse camming with right mouse, and click to move).

Move edit/build out of 'selection' and into a toggled 'mode' (that still has access to movement and camming) so that it doesn't trigger when trying to normally interact and move.

For library content use properly scalled props and furnishings, and building wall heights set as per industry standards.

Use a more natural camera height. One based on MMO norms of the present era.

Put out a LOT of initial library builds - such that when walking from the starting spot on, one will regularly encounter builds made by the staff, that follow MMO industry norms for props and spacing.

(Keep in mind here that the very idea of a sim or zone is outdated... moderm MMOs can handle most of world connectivity without any zones that ever visible to the end user. which is why I'm deliberately vague about the 'walking from the starting spot and concepts of distance.)

 

My comments on movement, camming, and edit - they ARE important to setting up what sizes will end up feeling "right".

 

[Bobbie Faulds]

The biggest reason there are the height and size issues is the camera position. It's a leftover from the original programming.. IE...when I first logged in to SL I thought Tomb Raider, the original games. You needed the camera behind you like that to see what was coming...I've since adjusted mine more realistically and my builds reflect that as well. The current position forshortens the avis and you need the height and space in rooms to be able to see without your camera going through walls. You should be able to cam around yourself in a 10 X 10 space, since that was the original largest size you could make something. I guarantee you'll be outside the wall of anything that size.

[LlewLlwyd]

PERHAPS SL2 will have an extra question in the registration process:

'Do you lack imagination, and wish only to participate in a "normal" virtual world?'

***If only they included another question, like 'Do you want a kid avatar?' then rejected those who replied yes***

[Bree Giffen]

Stifling creative avatars is not the reason for trying to make SL2  avatar creation better. When you have obviously normal looking avatars walking around that are 9 feet tall... that's a problem. It works both ways. Normal people will all fall into standard human sized heights while people who want to look different will actually look different.

I mean, do we really see any taller than average avatars? Let's say you want to make a towering Shaquille O'neal avatar. Good luck with that because he's just going to look like an average person w/ all the oversized normal people walking around. We need to create 'normal' in order to have deviation.

[LlewLlwyd]

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Bree Giffen wrote:

When you have obviously normal looking avatars walking around that are 9 feet tall... that's

NOT

a problem.

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***FIFY!***

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

As others have noted, it's really an issue with what the user base is creating. I'm playing a 1.8m tall child avatar, and I've been in buildings where I can't see over the counter. If the default avatars are set to have human proportions, it's more likely that content creators will build to that scale.

On a related note, having some built in proportion aids would be a god send. Creationg properly proportioned avatars is a nightmare, and I'm always seeing super tall people running around with baby T-Rex arms  and other unnatural features.

It should be noted that doing this does not mean that creativity will be stifled. If people want to play a 20 foot tale character, more power to them. Smae with those who want to use very small avatars. Defining real world-like proportions and scales doesn't mean that you cannot build or do anything you want; it just sets the baseline for those who want a more realistic experience for themselves.

[Coby Foden]

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Nova Convair wrote:

 

However. Avatars will always look like the people want them to look. That means you will never get a population of avatars  like in RL. Not even close! With more freedom to create it will surely become even more ... ummm . different? ridiculous? exaggerated?

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Somehow I would prefer if human avatars were more like real people, in sizes and in proportions. Exaggerated size variation and random proportions we see in SL looks rather strange - even ridiculous. :smileywink:

[Pussycat Catnap]

Scale could be made an intentional factor in any SL 2.

Just add a species/age toggle, and then restrict height to something like +/- 15 to 20% or so.

Fill in basic entries and their average heights:

Human adult

human child

and a couple of generic aliens / fantasy creatures.

 

Then make creating a new species as easy as making a new shape - you just pop open an edit thingy, fill in some info, and save it. That info would have settings like:

"what scale / height / width is allowed" - this way, people who want to be very big or small, get that way on purpose, not on accident.

"what body parts can be swapped or added, and if so, are the swap in choices limited or open"

"what maturity ratings can it take" - which could be used to limit access to things like skins, venues, body parts, etc...

(solve the child Avatar problem right out of the gate by limiting the 'child species' to PG skins and 'G rated' venues, for example, AND by putting ratings on skins & body parts, a person's skin and 'props' would be changed the moment they moved between G and adult venues - down automatically, and by choosing settings to have it switch for you when you moved 'up rating', if desired).

- You could solve a number of issues with an added 'configuration layer' like this... Today's popular Mesh and furry bodies for example - could be complete swapped in replacements set with a species toggle... and apply or remove in a manner similar to how MMOs like "City of Heroes" let players swap between heads, limbs, wings, etc...

(As I noted before... ALL of the concerns people have, have been long solved in the rest of the industry... City of Heroes was 2004... and more modern entries have refined the point... But the best example is probably the "Single Player MMO" Sims.)

 

[LlewLlwyd]

This thread is rapidly becoming a rehearsal of the argument for eugenic purification - and without wishing to play the Godwin card, we all know where that led...

***On the other hand, it may indicate the new name for SL2 : GhettoLand***

[LlewLlwyd]

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

those who want a more realistic experience for themselves...

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...SHOULD stick to real life...

***...and avoid Marvel movies***

[Paul Hexem]

Here's something to try if you get time- download Champions Online and play with the character creator. It lets you make avatar shapes.

You can make giant gorillas and huge hulking juggernauts or small mini people (all the customization that SL has and more), all while knowing clearly how tall you are, and with sliders that let you have perfect proportions or not, simply by moving things to the mid points. It's how SL shape creation should have been done.

[Conifer Dada]

It's important that people in the new SL or whatever it's called can fully customise their avatars like we can now.  

People can be as tall or short as they like, or as fat or thin.  The problem at the moment is that a lot of people seem not to pay any attention to scale and just make their avatar big so it looks bigger on the screen.  So LL should give more clues to scale and avatar and object scale should be the same.  That won't stop some people from wanting to look like a gigantic baby, but it will help people who want to look realistic to do it better.

[Bobbie Faulds]

Which goes back to the poor default camera position that gives a false perspective on size.

[CadenzaInVivace]

Why do people insist on looking exactly like RL? Why not just go play your RL? Are you gonna get a heart attack now that your video game character is 3 inches taller than your RL self and has bigger boobs? "Look at me I'm so stuck up in my false modesty that I dress exactly the way I do in RL. Say no to sexy physiques because that's not 'realistic' enough for a game."