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Storm Clarence

Storm Clarence

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Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

But he (the business owner) had a sign posted, and that counts for everything as he clearly stated his intention to not serve a select group.  Suppose he wrote "refusing service to jurors and all Irish people"? 
Do you think his business would survive the fallout? 

That's just it!   If the business doesn't survive due to discriminatory practices, than so be it.  But, the
right
to chose who one sells to, regardless of reason, is a basic right.  Just as the right to chose where you spend your money!

If you can't be forced to buy from me, why should I be forced to sell to you?  

Here you go, in case you didn't read the link before:

 

I read the link.  "Libertarian" is a political affiliation not a religious sect.  I don't live and breathe  and hang on every single word that is published by the Cato Institute.  I don't kneel and pray to the Libertarian logo every evening.

Like I wrote above, refuse to accept me at a place of business for no reason other than you not liking my skin color or the company I'm with will have negative ramifications for that business.  Yes, in the name of individual liberty, free markets, and peace. 

So, basically, you're
not
a libertarian.  Got it.  ; )

 

It's more that I've learned to think for myself -- to not have government do my thinking, but be there to protect my individual freedoms according to constitutional law. 

ETA I see no difference between how you 'preach' about Libertarianism than how PussyCat 'preaches' Rasta.  The line blurs when it comes to fanaticism.

 

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Theresa Tennyson

Theresa Tennyson

Posted
Posted

Felicia Silversmith wrote:

Tari, i agree with you. Sometimes contacting customer help to solve problems. But sometimes it does not. Some people writing reviews without thinking about results. I've created this topic because sales of product really decreased after this review appeared. And even may be problem already solved, girl who wrote review do not care about review she wrote. I've tryed to contact Linden Lab, but so far no success.

 

I found and read the review. The review was written by someone who didn't know what she was talking about, like most one-star reviews. I read your comment - it explained the "problems" she was seeing quite well. But then you went and called her "stupid" and in general behaved like someone I would have no interest in giving my money to. Maybe THAT'S why your sales dropped.

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Teagan Tobias

Teagan Tobias

Posted
Posted

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Felicia Silversmith wrote:

Tari, i agree with you. Sometimes contacting customer help to solve problems. But sometimes it does not. Some people writing reviews without thinking about results. I've created this topic because sales of product really decreased after this review appeared. And even may be problem already solved, girl who wrote review do not care about review she wrote. I've tryed to contact Linden Lab, but so far no success.

 

I found and read the review. The review was written by someone who didn't know what she was talking about, like most one-star reviews. I read your comment - it explained the "problems" she was seeing quite well. But then you went and called her "stupid" and in general behaved like someone I would have no interest in giving my money to. Maybe THAT'S why your sales dropped.

I don't pay much attention to reviews, but I do read them some. To me a bad review with a good response is better than a good review that says nothing more than, I like it.

A good response tells me the seller is intelligent and concerned about their product and ready to help those that need help. That to me is a real plus. But if the seller does nothing to explain the problem, or, calls the buyer stupid, its time to walk away from that store.

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Drake1 Nightfire

Drake1 Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

Felicia Silversmith wrote:

Tari, i agree with you. Sometimes contacting customer help to solve problems. But sometimes it does not. Some people writing reviews without thinking about results. I've created this topic because sales of product really decreased after this review appeared. And even may be problem already solved, girl who wrote review do not care about review she wrote. I've tryed to contact Linden Lab, but so far no success.

 

I found and read the review. The review was written by someone who didn't know what she was talking about, like most one-star reviews. I read your comment - it explained the "problems" she was seeing quite well. But then you went and called her "stupid" and in general behaved like someone I would have no interest in giving my money to. Maybe THAT'S why your sales dropped.

I don't pay much attention to reviews, but I do read them some. To me a bad review with a good response is better than a good review that says nothing more than, I like it.

A good response tells me the seller is intelligent and concerned about their product and ready to help those that need help. That to me is a real plus. But if the seller does nothing to explain the problem, or, calls the buyer stupid, its time to walk away from that store.

I do read reviews when i am thinking of making a purchase. If it is nothing but 5 star "Awesome!!" or "!" reviews.. I wont buy it.

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Tari Landar

Tari Landar

Posted
Posted

Felicia Silversmith wrote:

Tari, i agree with you. Sometimes contacting customer help to solve problems. But sometimes it does not. Some people writing reviews without thinking about results. I've created this topic because sales of product really decreased after this review appeared. And even may be problem already solved, girl who wrote review do not care about review she wrote. I've tryed to contact Linden Lab, but so far no success.

 

Have you considered the review has nothing at all to do with the sales of this product? Perhaps it is at a lull.  If it is a product that truly sells a lot, and is currently not, there can be any number of reasons why.  I honestly doubt the review has anything at all to do with it. As I said before, stop placing so much importance on reviews. People honestly do not often use them to decide whether to buy or not buy.  The least likely reason for a drop in sales, is a bad review. Unless it is followed up with a terrible resposne from the seller.  In that case it would be the seller's response that likely prevents sales.  But overall, reviews just do not have that kind of impact on a large scale. Too few people rely on them.

As an aside I HAVE seen the product inworld, so I do know how it works, and I actually agree with part of the person's review. So, I can't imagine you're going to have an easy time having the review removed to begin with.  While it may not be worded in the best manner, and it clearly shows a misunderstanding of how the product works, it is NOT entirely fake. Whether you agree with their opinion of your product or not, doesn't matter.  You believe it's realistic. Not everyoe is going to agree with you. You need to learn to accept the good with the bad, and accept that even if you love your product and believe it is perfect, realistic, etc... not every single customer is going to agree. They have every right to say so, too.  Else anytime you get a bad review, you're going to get your panties into a twist, and trust me, that's not going to feel very good eventually.

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Celestiall Nightfire

Celestiall Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Storm Clarence wrote:

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

But he (the business owner) had a sign posted, and that counts for everything as he clearly stated his intention to not serve a select group.  Suppose he wrote "refusing service to jurors and all Irish people"? 
Do you think his business would survive the fallout? 

That's just it!   If the business doesn't survive due to discriminatory practices, than so be it.  But, the
right
to chose who one sells to, regardless of reason, is a basic right.  Just as the right to chose where you spend your money!

If you can't be forced to buy from me, why should I be forced to sell to you?  

Here you go, in case you didn't read the link before:

 

I read the link.  "Libertarian" is a political affiliation not a religious sect.  I don't live and breathe  and hang on every single word that is published by the Cato Institute.  I don't kneel and pray to the Libertarian logo every evening.

Like I wrote above, refuse to accept me at a place of business for no reason other than you not liking my skin color or the company I'm with will have negative ramifications for that business.  Yes, in the name of individual liberty, free markets, and peace. 

So, basically, you're
not
a libertarian.  Got it.  ; )

 

It's more that I've learned to think for myself -- to not have government do my thinking, but be there to protect my individual freedoms according to constitutional law. 

ETA I see no difference between how you 'preach' about Libertarianism than how PussyCat 'preaches' Rasta.  The line blurs when it comes to fanaticism.

Per usual, you're quite clueless and bombastic.  lol   *rolls eyes*

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Celestiall Nightfire

Celestiall Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Storm Clarence wrote:

Lol at clueless, and insofar as me being bombastic it is you that is preaching the word of
God
libertarianism as if it were gospel, not I.  Go figure. 

 

You're incapable of presenting a sound arguement to counter what I said.  Or, to counter the position stated in the link I provided.  So, you resort to innduendo and off track rants.  Good grief.  

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Storm Clarence

Storm Clarence

Posted
Posted

What's up with you?  I am not incapable of responding to anything especially a blog post or white paper on the facts of life according to the libertarian party.   Must I dispute your link just because it was written by a fellow libertarian and you take it as the word of God?  That in itself disputes the link for me. 

I'm not a libertarian because I don't heed EVERY word of a political affiliation think tank?  Who does?  I'm sure the Libertarians among us don't believe or heed everything that spew for the mouth of a political agenda group -- gawd only the Democrats, Tea-baggers, and Rastas live life that way.  I don't.

PS Your eyes better not roll too far away your going to need them to see. 

 

 

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Storm Clarence

Storm Clarence

Posted
Posted

Sassy Romano wrote:

Just one question.  Is my definition of a tea bagger different to yours?  I think it is...in a somewhat major way!
:)

I don't know your definition, but tea baggers are Tea Party supporters - they certainly are not to be confused with Libertarians, although many do confuse the two.

 

 

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Celestiall Nightfire

Celestiall Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Storm Clarence wrote:

 I am not incapable of responding to anything especially a blog post or white paper on the facts of life according to the libertarian party.

Show me.   Give a sound argument as to why I should be forced to sell to you if I don't want to. 

Also, a sound argument as to why you shouldn't be forced to buy from me, if I am forced to sell to you.

With no insults, innuendo, or slurs.  Just logic.

 

 

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Teagan Tobias

Teagan Tobias

Posted
Posted

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

 I am not incapable of responding to anything especially a blog post or white paper on the facts of life according to the libertarian party.

Show me.   Give a sound argument as to
why
I should be forced to sell to you if I don't want to. 

Also, a sound argument as to why you shouldn't be forced to buy from me,
if
I
am
forced to sell to you.

With no insults, innuendo, or slurs.  Just logic.

 

 

This wasn't asked of me but it sounded like fun to try and answer.

 

When you open a business, you open it to the public. If not then you have a club that you need to be a member of to use. Then you advertise for members, not the items for sale.

Not selling to anyone because you don't want to opens up a can of worms. Say your a grocery store and you don't sell food to someone, for them or for their pet (SL pet, no food bad). Or your a bus company and some can't ride your bus, it is things like this that come out of your can of worms. This is logic.

Opening a business to sell to someone is very different from being part of the general public that buys things. If everyone had to buy from you, you could not keep up with demand, that is logic. Its two very different things, buying and selling. And in SL that could be really bad, if everyone had to buy from me, I could make plywood boxes and sell them for thousands and thousands of lindens, and you would half to buy them. LOL, wait, I can do that!

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Celestiall Nightfire

Celestiall Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Celestiall Nightfire wrote:

Storm Clarence wrote:

 I am not incapable of responding to anything especially a blog post or white paper on the facts of life according to the libertarian party.

Show me.   Give a sound argument as to
why
I should be forced to sell to you if I don't want to. 

Also, a sound argument as to why you shouldn't be forced to buy from me,
if
I
am
forced to sell to you.

With no insults, innuendo, or slurs.  Just logic.

 

 

This wasn't asked of me but it sounded like fun to try and answer.

HI Teagan!   Yay for fun!  : )

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

When you open a business, you open it to the public. If not then you have a club that you need to be a member of to use. Then you advertise for members, not the items for sale.

 

This is stating what the difference is between a public business, and a club-type business.  But, doesn't give a sound reason as to why I should be forced to sell to you if I don't want to.  (with my public business)

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Not selling to anyone because you don't want to opens up a can of worms. Say your a grocery store and you don't sell food to someone, for them or for their pet (SL pet, no food bad). Or your a bus company and some can't ride your bus, it is things like this that come out of your can of worms. This is logic.

 Hmm, you haven't given a reason why. A "can of worms", isn't a sound argument, it's an idiom.  Not an argument or logic.  

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

Opening a business to sell to someone is very different from being part of the general public that buys things. If everyone had to buy from you, you could not keep up with demand, that is logic.

 Ok, now you're starting to state what you think is a reason why.   But, I counter with it's not a compelling reason. 

As let's examine who's hurt by me not being able to keep up with the demand: 

It would be my business that's hurt.  So, it's my choice to make.  Also, there's no regulation or law that says a business must always meet the demand for buyers, as that's an impossible standard.  In RL businesses run out of products regularly, and people know to just go and buy somewhere else.  So, this reason is not sufficient for a law that would force me to sell to you if I don't want to.  As you can just take your business elsewhere.

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

 Its two very different things, buying and selling.

Yes.  Both are part of an exchange.  But, why should one end of the exchange be forced to do business with the other end, if they don't want to?  That's what I'm asking for someone to argue.  

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

 And in SL that could be really bad, if everyone had to buy from me, I could make plywood boxes and sell them for thousands and thousands of lindens, and you would half to buy them. LOL, wait, I can do that!

Well, SL or RL, it doesn't matter.  The principal is the same, just as it's a bad idea in both SL and RL.  (People being forced to buy your plywood boxes  ; )

But, equally bad would be you being forced to sell them to those who you do not wish to sell to.   As you may have greifers, harassers, or people who for whatever reason, you do not wish to conduct business, and you'd be forced to do so.  Forced into interactions with someone, or many, that you do not wish to associate.   You shouldn't be forced into an association with other's against your will.  Owning a business doesn't negate the right of free association.

 

Thank you Teagan for being a good sport and making an effort! 

I'm still looking for a sound argument as to why I should be forced to sell to someone if I don't want to.  Also, a sound argument as to why someone should not be forced to buy from me, if I am forced to sell to them.

Anyone can play!  *smiles*

 

 

 

 

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Teagan Tobias

Teagan Tobias

Posted
Posted

From another angle, your in business to sell, I am not in business to buy. You have a business, I don't.

Having the ability to deny selling to someone if taken to its extreme, and that always happens, you could end up with part of your population with no place to shop, at all, for anything. So a lot of the laws are to keep the extremest from going wild more than to punish you as an individual. You may have a good reason to wish that you can stop someone from shopping at your store, but because of the extremest pushing things, you end up with laws that say, no one can do it. Its not about you, its about the extremest. If the act of murder had never happened, not even once, you would most likely see no laws that say you can't murder someone, that law just would not be needed. The same can be said of the ability to deny service, if it had not been abused, the law would not exist.

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Pamela Galli

Pamela Galli

Posted
Posted

In RL there are protected classes that a business cannot legally refuse to do business with on those grounds. (But No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service, for example, is nevertheless legal, because having bare chested barefooted people dining at Four Seasons would negatively impact their business.) 

This is not RL, however. There are NO protected avi classes. Not child avis, not furries, not dragons, not special snowflakes.   However, although I have the right and ability, I do not ban on the basis of what kind of avi someone has -- I usually dont even know that. 

Most merchants would welcome the ability to extend the same right to ban to the MP store as well -- but not holding my breath.

 

 

 

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Sassy Romano

Sassy Romano

Posted
Posted

Teagan Tobias wrote:

From another angle, your in business to sell, I am not in business to buy. You have a business, I don't.

Yes though not at the expense of all else.  Let me give an example.  Someone buys a product that costs say L$250 ($1) and they didn't read the advert, don't understand the instructions (might be a language issue, inexperience, no ability to learn, whatever).  In turn that $1 ends up taking up, lets say 1 or 2 hours of the merchants time.  If that merchant is here to provide for their RL income, that $1 is poor use of their time.

As a result, they *may* wish to just refund and ask that the person does not buy anything else as the support burden may repeat and not be cost effective.

That is an example of where a merchant may prefer NOT to sell to an individual.

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Celestiall Nightfire

Celestiall Nightfire

Posted
Posted

Teagan Tobias wrote:

From another angle, your in business to sell, I am not in business to buy. You have a business, I don't.

Yup, it's my business.  So, I can decide who to sell to.    Since you're not in the business to buy, it shouldn't bother you that you're not able to buy from me.  There's no reason for us to have any exchange.  

 

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

 

Having the ability to deny selling to someone if taken to its extreme, and that always happens, you could end up with part of your population with no place to shop, at all, for anything.

 

That's solved by the "market".  If there are customers willing to spend money, someone else will take over that costumer niche and meet the need.   I might be the only shop in town that sells Schmidt Hoppers, and you want one.  I won't sell to you.   So, if enough people also can't buy from me, someone else will quickly become sellers of Schmidt Hoppers. 

The free market balances itself, and people fill the need, as they want to make money.  I will actually be creating an opportunity for other sellers.

 

(Businesses leave places and go under all the time in RL, and people lose a place shop.  That's reality.  The situation gets resolved.  I can't be forced to sell to people, just so they have a place to shop. )

 

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

So a lot of the laws are to keep the extremest from going wild more than to punish you as an individual.

You haven't given any "extreme" example that warrants a law forcing to me sell to people.  The situation you described is a normal market situation (a business closes, or moves, and people no longer have a place to shop.  It's part of life.  A law that forces to me to sell, to prevent a normal life/business happening would be unjust.   Anything that forces me to sell, would be unjust.   If there are people who want to sell to people, let them do it.   Me being a seller doesn't obligate me to the one.

 

 

 

Teagan Tobias wrote:

You may have a good reason to wish that you can stop someone from shopping at your store, but because of the extremest pushing things, you end up with laws that say, no one can do it. Its not about you, its about the extremest. If the act of murder had never happened, not even once, you would most likely see no laws that say you can't murder someone, that law just would not be needed. The same can be said of the ability to deny service, if it had not been abused, the law would not exist.

Denying service is a situation that will be corrected by the market, as other people will come along and sell to those who I don't sell to.   Or, if I close my business or move my business (also a form of denying service) other people will meet that market demand.  The people living in that area, might move to a place where there are stores to buy from.  NONE of which is anything like murder, where a person's life is ended, and which is an act of aggression against another.   (your analogy doesn't work)

 

 

 

 

 

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Sassy Romano

Sassy Romano

Posted
Posted

Teagan, you can't stop someone refusing to sell, there is no law that forces a seller to form a contract purely by offering an item as an invitation to solicit an offer (invitation to treat).

Buyer: "Hi, i'd like to make you an offer" (attempts to hand over money)

Seller: "I've changed my mind, I don't want to sell that today"

Buyer: "You have to sell it to me, why won't you sell it?"

Seller: "No I don't, I don't want to"

That's as far as that conversation goes.  There is no law that comes into play here.

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