MMO Player Perspective on Sansar

[Nalytha]

A little about me: I've been playing MMOs for about 16 years. The following are some of my thoughts based off of a transcript I read about Project Sansar. Some may believe MMOs and Second Life are too different for this perspective to matter. The reason I disagree is this: What continuously draws me to MMOs (and always will) is the connection with other players in real time. The ability to communicate and experience a world with them. This is exactly what draws me into virtual worlds like Second Life. Now, this isn't universal. I actually know many MMO players who prefer to play on their own. Completely valid point. To each their own. 

I try out just about all the new MMOs as they come out. I follow them through the design process, try betas, and have experienced MANY launch dates. The following are of my thoughts based on where I've seen companies go wrong. 

Project Sansar will start off with (far) fewer features than Second Life

"Because in the beginning, Sansar might look all shiny and whatnot, but it’s not going to have the level of complexity and sophistication of Second Life, that’s been developed for almost 15 years now. It will take time for a lot of the things that you all love and do in Second Life to be something that you could completely do in Sansar."

"So we’re just going to have to sort out this product so that it’s really good for a few people for some core scenarios, and then let the product evolve and expand in scope over time; rather than being everything to everybody from Day 1 – that’s like too much.Which means that for a lot of you, based on the scope we have to ratchet down to, to make sure we can get it out in these time frames, the product on Day 1 will not be what you want it to be, or will not have what you needed to have in order to create what you imaging or create what you find is meaningful to you. But for some people, it will be. and then over time it’ll be relevant to more and more people."

I've played sequels to MMOs as well as seperate games made my the same creators. These words are very concerning to me. It's already established that Sansar is NOT Second Life 2. So to a degree, we can not assume both games will have the same features but it's not unreasonable that many of us are imagining a game similar to Second Life and until we are presented with the contrary, that assumption is probably going to prevail.

I assume statements like this are made so that people do not get their hopes up and that they aren't dissappointed on day one. However, I've seen this go terribly wrong in games. This is what many players are going to think on day one: "Wait, Linden Labs created the technology for this feature in Second Life years ago. So I know they can do it. Why have they taken this feature away?" Most sequels strive to ADD features. As time goes by, technology increases and a creator is able to deliver higher quality content than something they made years (or over a decade ago). Users look forward to the technological advances they've waited for this whole time. To log in, and see they they have LESS features is going to be a big let down and one that is going to turn many people away. 

The solution? Push back the release date if necessary but get a product out there that is going to WOW players, especially Second Life players IMMEDIATELY. Because if you don't, those initial players are going to leave pretty quickly. It's like reading a book. You need to hook the reader's attention immediately in order to keep them reading. You don't want millions to log in, only to be dissappointed and NOT recommend your game to other people and in fact leave BAD reviews right off the bat when all you had to do was have us wait a little longer in order to WOW us. 

In regards to releasing Sansar information publicly

"We’ll see if we can do some kind of high-level FAQ to make sure at least the common stuff is covered somewhere, so that we can constantly reference people that start from scratch asking all the basic stuff all over again. Just like, “start here, and then ask questions after you’ve read that”. Yeah, makes sense."

"And I’m not even sure what kinds of details are even going to be necessary for people."

Here's some advice based on my experience from following games through the developement phase and into the finished product. Do NOT overload the audience with a ton of information. Because, as you've said in this transcript, things are up for change. A lot is going to happen between now and release day. The last thing you want is players resenting you for releasing a product you hyped up as one thing, but is something else. Or promising features that you don't deliver on -- that's one of the worse things you can do. So, be cautious about what you share. BUT SHARE! You need to especially keep the current Second Life players excited about Sansar. Because who do you think is going to flock to you on opening day? Sure, a lot of VR enthusiasts, but especially SL former and current residents! 

Be honest with what you share. Be excited. You can say, "Hey we are currently working on this feature. We can't promise it will make it into the final product, but it's looking very promising!" There is a subtle difference between experienced MMO players and people who just play SL and aren't experienced with development phases for games. An experienced gamer doesn't actually need to be told that what you are saying now might not make it into the final version. I hypothesise that more casual gamers actually do need to have this made very clear to them. But the key thing is excitement. Share your news with enthusiasm, because if you are excited, so are we. 

Second Life vs Project Sansar

"And we’re not planning to force anything; we’re going to give you the opportunity to choose where you want to spend your time and how you want to spend your time.

And there is a risk. What if you subtract enough from Second Life that it loses complete momentum and implodes, and we did something wrong with Sansar, so it implodes and doesn’t really work and so now you have two things that don’t really work, rather than one thing that sort-of works.

for some users, it might take a couple of years before they feel that Sansar is maybe something that’s more suitable to them than what Second Life is today. And for some users, maybe never; which is OK to.

This is actually really concerning to me. You seem to be wanting to keep one foot in each door. You don't want either to close. This following part is completlely my humble opinion, but I really feel like you need Second Life to fade away. Okay, I know it never will. HOWEVER, you want Project Sansar to be the next big thing. We've been waiting for the next best virtual reality for over a decade now. We've waited long enough. When you make statements like this, you aren't sounding enthusiastic like I mentioned before. You are sounding extremely cautious and projecting that onto us.

If you wait to release a product that will WOW us on day one, the transition is going to be smooth and simple. You are going to garner a LOT of enthusiasm for your new product and are going to make a lot of money off of it. If you want to keep a mediocre Second Life and a mediocre Sansar, you are going to see exactly what you saw in SL. Lots of people on day one, and then huge drop offs. It's probably going to be even worse because of the hype already established. 

It might take a few years for users to find Sansar more suitable for them? That's a terrible statement. From a gamer perspective, what you've just said is this: "Sansar might not even be as good as Second Life for years to come." 

Release Date

still to make it generally available by the end of 2016. and I’m going to be very firm on that date. I mean, when you get closer to some things, you might change your mind, but I’m very firm on that date.

DO NOT BE FIRM ON ANY DATE. No, no, no. I can tell you the worst thing an MMO producer can do is release an unfinished, unpolished product. The customers WILL wait. I promise, they will. But you want us to log in on day one and be impressed right off the bat. You can't release EVERYTHING on day one. Here's where some more MMO experience comes in. 

Let's say an MMO releases. One often requested feature is player housing. On launch day, many won't have it. But the game is great and so people go ahead and play. A year later, they need to not only keep their audience's attention but they also need to bring back players who've dropped their subscription and also attract new players. They release an expansion with new story content and, wait for it, player housing! You always need to hold on to some cards for future use. It's okay to have an amazing feature and not share it or release it for a year or years to come! That's COMPLETELY fine. It actually gives gamers something to look forward to and something to come back to when we've taken a break. 

Here's what's going to happen if you deliver a subpar product, which is the impression I'm getting, on the promise that it will get better in years to come. Players, especially SL residents, are going to log on, be dissappointed and immediately start leaving BAD reviews ALL OVER the internet. You are going to see Youtube reviewers tear your game to shreds on day one. You are going to see professional writers tear it to shreds. And then you are going to have to try to combat that overwhelming negative publicity over the next few years. I can tell you this, that is a hard battle to fight and one that is the downfall of many a game. 

Please, for the love of god. Do NOT release this before it's ready. Although this account is newer, I actually started playing SL when it first came out. Ever since then, I, and many, have been waiting for the next big thing. You said it yourself. You want to be the next big thing. Do it. I know you can. You've shown us the amazing capabilities you have already. We know you can and will make an amazing product. Don't let your caution block yourself from realizing the full potential of Project Sansar. 

Disclaimer: I know I'm just one person. I know my thoughts do not reflect all MMO gamers. And I know that I'm just some random person behind a screen vomitting some ramblings. If you made it this far, I thank you for your time and look forward to your own thoughts on the matter! 

 

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

Edit: This was written on my phone, in case anything doesn't make sense.

 

What seems to be missing, and what always seems to be missing, from every single mention of Sansar is this:

 

Sansar isn't SL2.

 

You mention that early on, but it's clear that it hasn't sunk in. Sansar isn't SL2. It's not going to be, and it probably never was. It sounds like LL is making something like the Unity Game Engine, not another SL. SL players are not the target audience for Sansar. The project doesn't seem to be concerned with that. Whatever it is, it's not necessarily for us, so there is nit point in comparing it to SL or talking about migration.

 

You talk about having a foot in each door, but that's the wrong way to look at it. This means you are still looking at whatever Sansar is through the lenses of SL, and that's not what you or anyone else should he doing. What you are suggesting is that LL is going to run two SLs and do a bad job with both, rather than develop and support two largely unrelated products. Autodesk develops AutoCAD, 3ds Max, Maya, Softimage, and countless other products, many of which basically do the smell thing. But Autodesk isn't holding those products back by keeping a foot in the door, because these are separate products, not versions or sequels.

 

Sansar is not SL2. We need to understand that. We really do. But we really aren't understanding that, which is leading to complaint after complaint, discussion after discussion, all of which are rooted in the idea that Sansar is SL2.

[wherorangi]

Sansar is intended as a platform on which others (not LL) can build virtual worlds, which they own and manage [monetarise] in their own name. Leasing the server space to do so from LL. (SL equivalent is Estate)

Altogether Sansar is a universe of worlds/experiences. Experience is the new buzzword for this

LLs involvement in Sansar will be the administration of avatar accounts, a common currency across the worlds, content/inventory management and a web marketplace [content maker monetarisation], with bookkeeping/management of same

LL will no doubt build some inworld experiences to a) showcase what is possible, and b) enable entry into the universe (SL equivalent is Social Island and Portal Park) for those who don't come thru a Experience owner's own website portal

and these LL experiences will be quite limited (by concious choice and design) as are the SL ones that LL provide. So that people are encouraged to seek what they wish elsewhere. Elsewhere being the worlds/experiences created by others    

eta: [monetarise]

[Nalytha]

Sorry I too am on my phone at this point so this will be more brief than I might like. Yes we all do know sansar is no sl2. HOWEVER, based on quotes from that transcript, even LL is making it sound like eventually it will be very similar to SL.

 

"Because in the beginning, Sansar might look all shiny and whatnot, but it’s not going to have the level of complexity and sophistication of Second Life, that’s been developed for almost 15 years now. It will take time for a lot of the things that you all love and do in Second Life to be something that you could completely do in Sansar."

 

I didn't include the quotes but that transcript also basically says that SL focused on the user while Sansar will focus on the creators.

 

The worry some thing from these quotes is that they sound contradicting. We are all told this isn't SL 2. But we are told that it may take years to resemble it?

[Nalytha]

I'm on my phone but could someone link the transcripts for reference? In one of them they give the example that you would have your own avatar. Maybe it's human. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's something crazy... I don't remember their example. So in that sense, they are saying you still will have a personal customizable persona. Then they talk about experiences. They give the example of a space experience. Maybe the creator forces your avatar to change to something they choose to make it fit their theme. Maybe it's like Berlin and you can change your own clothes. But maybe you are a non human avatar and so the transcript discussed how much power would be given to the creator over your personal avatar.

 

To me, this sounds like SL but with a focus on creators having more control to target and capture their audience better (which the transcript also confirms).

 

When I say one foot in each door, I partially mean LL is sending contradictory messages.

 

Sansar isn't sl2

In several years sansar might be sl2

[wherorangi]

its similar in the: Estate Owner - Content Maker - LL Platform Provider sense of relationship

its similar from the Resident - Estate Owner - Content Maker sense of relationship

whats not similar is (and is still an unknown as LL havent said yet) is:

a) governance of avatar behaviours in the Experience owners' created worlds

b) provision of land (spaces is the new buzzword) to residents at parcel sizes less than the minimum Experience size. SL equivalent is Mainland    

[Nalytha]

No I haven't read about specifics on land but I have heard LL say they know land is too expensive in SL and they are going to make it easier to create in Sansar by having more affordable rates. It wouldn't make sense for LL to restrict their income by saying ... we only want money from creators who will have a big audience. They will probably cast the net wider. Make experiences be as small as a personal experience (owning your own land and doing whatever you want with it) or big. Like being able to own 512 sqm in SL for $5 a month or an island for $295 the wider the net, the more income for them.

[Nalytha]

The transcript also points out an example where he's explaining why it won't be as sophisticated as SL on day one. He gives the rental system as an example. It took years for someone to create those systems. It's going to take time for users to create these complicated things.

 

Another contradiction. LL can not stress that this is not going to be SL 2 and then give ANOTHER example of something that is in SL. This can easily be interpreted as "Oh. So theres going to be rentals bUT it will take time for someone to make the systems." Of course a critical mind might also interpret it as a poor example on LL part. Perhaps they were simply trying to express that complicated user generated things will take time to make. That doesn't mean there's going to be a rental system. But hopefully you see my point. This is needless confusion

[wherorangi]

yes. Thats something that LL would be considering in their financial planning

they would be influenced by the occupancy rate of SL mainland, compared to the occupancy rate of Linden Homes, compared to the tenant occupancy rate of the estates. I think this would be a factor in setting the minimum experience space size (black box) 

it would seem that the platform doesnt exclude a Estate/Experience owner from creating a contiguous landmass (as they can do now in SL) assuming that the landmass can be parcelled

is an open question whether LL itself will provide a contiguous land mass for dwellings. LL may but then they would be in competition with estates who might/may be doing the same. Something that has always created a contention between the estate owners and LL as a platform provider

my personal view is that Sansar residents will be able to lease a black box (skybox, a room) which they can furnish. But I am not sure that these will be able to be contiguous below whatever the min experience size is

[Nalytha]

I don't see the necessity for a landmass. Some "experience" creators could choose to make "experiences" that are similar to our islands that cater to residential/rp neighborhoods. And for those who don't choose one of those perhaps something small like a skybox aka apartment or small personal home (not on land) would work. I actually would love to see if residential experiences became a thing. I mean, of course depending on exactly how similar to SL they go.

[wherorangi]

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Nalytha wrote:

I'm on my phone but could someone link the transcripts for reference?

---

the go to reference in one place is pretty much Inara Pey's blog: https://modemworld.me/?s=sansar

[Nalytha]

Thank you for posting that. I think that's where its all at. If this link works it should save some scrolling though (at least for what I'm referencing. Your site has more info)

 

https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Lab-Chat-Returns-Friday-with-Ebbe-Oz-and-Troy-Linden/ba-p/3027649

[Nalytha]

"But of course, if Sansar opens up and it is offering much cheaper land and everyone is running to Sansar, automatically, Second Life will suffer.

 

Yes, so this is the cannibalisation effect. It’s obviously real; and all I can say to that is, it’s better it’s us than someone else. Because it’s going to be someone, some day. and so we’ve decided it has to be us."

 

They say it a few different ways in the chat but they repeatedly say they want to be the next big thing in terms of what comes after SL. Apparently even if sansar canibilizes SL.

 

So Sansar isn't supposed to be SL but what does that mean? If we take their words that they are going to be more focused on creators and those creators being able to more easily capture their own audiences, you know what it sounds to me like? Immersive advertising. If we can't create our own stuff, socialize, ... things we do in SL... what does that leave us? Commercials. Advertisements. We already know big brands are considering using this.

 

If that's all Sansar has to offer, a lot of people are going to switch channels and find something else.

 

Edit: and if that's what they are planning, fine. But it would be wiser for them to blend the two ideas instead

[wherorangi]

much of the convo that SL residents have had, revolves around their friends and their inventories

a) if my friends go to Sansar then I will also

b) can I take my SL stuff/inventory with me ? If not then I will stay in SL bc I want to keep my stuff

also (and is quite important this to those involved) some of the stuff I do have in SL is from friends who are no longer with us in the RL, and is only in SL can this be preserved

[Nalytha]

I can understand that and for those reasons and more I believe SL will be up and running for a long time (though it will eventually end).

 

This is a SL phenomenon though. MMO players are used to their games dying and moving on to its next generation. Take a game like Ever Quest 2. People played 1 for years. I think it's older than SL and I think you can still play it. People invested time, money, and memories into it. When 2 came out of course people were sad that they would lose their stuff but there's also something so exciting about taking a step forward in technology. And I think LL hasn't really captured that anticipation that most MMO companies are very atuned to.

 

No, SL and sansar are not MMORPGs. But they do have a lot in common and I really think LL should take a close look at that industry. There are decades of experience for them to gleam and they can learn from others' mistakes.

 

MMOs have mastered advertising and player participation. They know how to get people amped up. I'm not feeling that with Sansar. Months on end I'm seeing a couple of photo edited shots and not much info. And the info that is coming out is confusing.

[Nalytha]

Speaking of learning from others Mistakes. Ever Quest 2 did well. Ever Quest 3 (officially known as Ever Quest Next) recenty flopped. They hyped everyone up for years and then canceled the project. There's a lot to learn from that debacle.

 

Edit: now that I think on this this is pretty similar. Ever quest next was advertised to be not really ever quest 3 but its own game set in a similar world. It was going to have different features and even look different. But the whole time, everyone was waiting for ever quest 3 because they had played 2 for over a decade by that point. A lot of stuff led to their downfall but I would hypothesize that if it had gone live many would have been disappointed. Even being told it was not going to be ever quest 3, that's what the players really wanted

[wherorangi]

---

Nalytha wrote:

 

They say it a few different ways in the chat but they repeatedly say they want to be the next big thing in terms of what comes after SL. Apparently even if sansar canibilizes SL.

 

---

when Sansar was first announced Ebbe Linden said it is inevitable that given the advances in technology, a successor technical platform to SL is inevitable

as he put it at the time: Like SL but better. (better meaning technically better, breaking the creakiness and constraints of the SL sim server paradigm)

his view as CEO of LL was that if LL doesnt create this successor technical platform then some other company will

+

the main difference between SL and MMO is that in SL there is no structured goal/game mechanics created by the provider. We have to create these for ourselves. It is hoped I think, that with a more advanced platform then Sansar residents will have better tools to create goal/game oriented mechanics (MMO-style etc) for others to participate in and enjoy

and also bc the new sim server paradigm, then own spaces (homes etc) within it are no longer restricted by size (sqm in SL). That the space for our home/experience (black box)  is virtually unlimited. The limit is LI (content-based) rather than arbitrary virtual sqm. We can pack our LI (stuff) into a single room, or we can spread it far, a island in the sea for example. Distance no longer being a tight constraint as it is on SL

+

the main difference between world creation platforms like Unity etc and SL (and Sansar going forward) is the absence of resident connectively between the individual worlds created on those platforms. SL for all its creakiness (and Sansar less creaky) does provide that seamless connectivity   

[ChinRey]

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Nalytha wrote:

I don't see the necessity for a landmass.

---

Many don't. But there are also a lot of Second Life users who regard that as one of the most essential features of SL and they will not consider Sansar relevant as a replacement.

[mikka Luik]

Yes... and sort of points to the ongoing 'sl2' confusion. From what has been made known the possibility may be that someone could use what seems to be this new 'engine' to create the equivalent of a continent...In theory you could using existing tech (waves vaguely at open sim cough) or even something like Unity (not played a lot with that so no idea if its even a concept that would fir the tools though).

Personally I love the idea of mainland(s) but I am not expecting the same thing at all. Think back to those before as well (cloud party anyone? Well, it turns out, no).

 

(Edit to zap errant 'w' replacing vowels)

[ChinRey]

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wherorangi wrote:

much of the convo that SL residents have had, revolves around their friends and their inventories

a) if my friends go to Sansar then I will also

---

I remember when one of my favorite chat rooms closed down. No big problem, right? We were told about it well in advance and had no problems finding a new chatroom to move to. But it just didn't happen, it never does.

---

wherorangi wrote:

b) can I take my SL stuff/inventory with me ? If not then I will stay in SL bc I want to keep my stuff

---

Well, you can't.

And that leads to yet another reason why Sansar can't be an "SL2":

One of the great things about Second Life is that it's a haven for hobbyists. Anybody can build and create their own content and their own little world here. The downside to this is that the content generally isn't very resource efficient. I once heard that Second Life was four times as heavy to run as WoW. That seemed to make sense back then - it may well be as much as ten times by now.

Sansar is supposed to have much more advanced graphics than Second Life and still be able to run consistently with an fps of 90 or more. That requires content far better optimized for performance than what you see in Second Life. Not only individual items, the whole scene will have to be made from parts made right from the start to work together as efficiently as possible. There's simply no room for a hundred thousand happy hobby builders in a scenario like that,

[ChinRey]

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mikka Luik wrote:

Yes... and sort of points to the ongoing 'sl2' confusion. From what has been made known the possibility may be that someone could use what seems to be this new 'engine' to create the equivalent of a continent..

---

Ebbe mentioned something like that early in the process. But it turns out the biggest simulation Sansar can manage is 4x4 km - the euqivalent of about 250 sims. Anything bigger than that and the physics become "unpredictable".

[ChinRey]

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HarrisonMcKenzie wrote:

Sansar isn't SL2.

 

You mention that early on, but it's clear that it hasn't sunk in.

---

That is a problem of course. Linden Lab, creators of the famous Second Life, is building a new virtual reality. Despite all the known facts, it's very hard not to think of it as "SL2". That probably explains the contradictions Nalytha mentioned: Just like everybody else, Ebbe and the other Lindens can't help thinking of Sansar as a Second Life replacement. Even though they know better, it's still there in the back of their minds.

[Phil Deakins]

Why don't we all just wait and see. eh?

[wherorangi]

---

ChinRey wrote:

Sansar is supposed to have much more advanced graphics than Second Life and still be able to run consistently with an fps of 90 or more. That requires content far better optimized for performance than what you see in Second Life. Not only individual items, the whole scene will have to be made from parts made right from the start to work together as efficiently as possible. There's simply no room for a hundred thousand happy hobby builders in a scenario like that,

---

is not quite true this. About 90FPS

Nvidia have said that with the new 10 series cards their goal is to have all of the top selling games run at 45FPS eventually

what happens with games is that when content efficiency peak is reached on one part (like textures for example) then the creatives fill the released space up with other stuff. Fluids, cloth, morph animation, etc 

it will be the same on Sansar as it is now with SL, as it is with other 3D games and environments. Is just how creatives are, both amateurs and professionals. They will fill the space up when there is a space to fill

is really only techies who have to manage the spaces that do the omgs about this. Creatives just go pffft! gimme moar space. and hurry up ok (:

 

[wherorangi]

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ChinRey wrote:

Ebbe mentioned something like that early in the process. But it turns out the biggest simulation Sansar can manage is 4x4 km - the euqivalent of about 250 sims. Anything bigger than that and the physics become "unpredictable".

---

it depends on the math library (and underlying hardware/chips) the effect of [float] math rounding. Not sure if Sansar will be using 32bit or 64bit server hardware. If 32bit then 4K is about right. Is why the Z (sky)  in SL is 4K also

eta [float]