Avatar Rendering Complexity

[Salomena Askari]

How can i hide thise message.. ? i want see that..cause a bug ? when i change sim it show me again and again..

so i will really hide this information :)

 

[Torrie Mint]

Im with you I could care less to see how badly the labs hardware is running, we know its junk they dont need to keep rubbing it in.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Torrie Mint wrote:

Im with you I could care less to see how badly the labs hardware is running, we know its junk they dont need to keep rubbing it in.

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Please explain to us what rendering, a completely end-user side operation, has to do with Linden Lab's hardware.

[Torrie Mint]

What runs this game? Oh wait never mind of corse its all our fault. Im sorry I complained I'll just take it as it is. Good thing the software is free if people had to pay for something that runs this bad everyone would want a refund. My bad again it must be my PC not the labs fault I'll stop now. Bye

[Madelaine McMasters]

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Torrie Mint wrote:

What runs this game?

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Mostly your computer, with a li'l guidance from SL servers.

[HoppytheWanderer]

It would be nice, I don't really care if people with their performance slider set to low can't render me.

One thing I found odd is that an item consisting of mostly invisible objects had a very high rendering complexity. Shouldn't something like that have a rendering cost close to zero since there almost nothing to render?

 

 

 

[Ilithios Liebknecht]

Oh that's easy. Make your rendering complexity lower.

[Ilithios Liebknecht]

It is surprising how little some people know about how computer technology works even in this day and age. Rendering has nothing at all to do with Linden Labs Hardware. It really doesn't. It isn't a matter of opinion or something. It has nothing to do with it. It is all your computer.

Software, on the other hand, does have something to do with it. If you're using the official LL viewer I guess you could blame LL a little bit for your troubles, although honestly the problem still probably lies mainly with your hardware. If you're using a 3rd party viewer, you have to blame whoever made that one.

[Phil Deakins]

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Ilithios Liebknecht wrote:

It is surprising how little some people know about how computer technology works even in this day and age. Rendering has nothing at all to do with Linden Labs Hardware. It really doesn't. It isn't a matter of opinion or something. It has nothing to do with it. It is all your computer.

Software, on the other hand, does have

something

to do with it. If you're using the official LL viewer I guess you could blame LL a little bit for your troubles, although honestly the problem still probably lies mainly with your hardware.

If you're using a 3rd party viewer, you have to blame whoever made that one.

---

Linden Lab made them, 3rd party people tweaked them.

[Salomena Askari]

funny,,but u wrong..and please dont be a troll thanks..normal im not willing to answer a troll but ..! did u know when the rendering is low u still see the message again and again..!

[Ilithios Liebknecht]

Where on Earth did you get the idea that all 3rd party viewers were made by Linden Labs, Phil?

Sure, some are heavily based on the V3 LGPL code base.

But others much less so or not at all.

Very highly inaccurate to say that third party viewers are just the LL viewer that has been "tweaked."

[wherorangi]

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Ilithios Liebknecht wrote:

Where on Earth did you get the idea that all 3rd party viewers were made by Linden Labs, Phil?

Sure, some are heavily based on the V3 LGPL code base.

But others much less so or not at all.

Very highly inaccurate to say that third party viewers are just the LL viewer that has been "tweaked."

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the rendering engine is 100% LL code in all desktop viewers. As is the data transport, storage and connectivity engines

the 3rd party viewers surface in their UI stuff that is tucked away in the Debug Settings, and add other bells and whistles to the UI, like shortcuts and that. With RLV (allowing another user to control our viewer) the only major 3rd-party significant addition to the LL viewer

eta: ps

where the 3rd-party dev teams are invaluable is that their devs pick up bugs in the engines that sometimes LL miss, and are able to provide feedback on what their users would (or would not) like to see in the LL viewer, and how and why that could be a good thing for LL to do

 

[Alwin Alcott]

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Salomena Askari wrote:

funny,,but u wrong..and please dont be a troll thanks..normal im not willing to answer a troll but ..! did u know when the rendering is low u still see the message again and again..!

---

that somebody doesn't have the right answer doesn't make him a troll.

But he's indeed wrong...

set ShowMyComplexityChanges in the debug settings to 0

 

 

[Phil Deakins]

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Ilithios Liebknecht wrote:

Where on Earth did you get the idea that all 3rd party viewers were made by Linden Labs, Phil?

Sure, some are heavily based on the V3 LGPL code base.

But others much less so or not at all.

Very highly inaccurate to say that third party viewers are just the LL viewer that has been "tweaked."

---

I am not aware of any viewer that has been written from scratch. To the best of my knowledge, they all use the freely offered LL viewer code, and then make changes; i.e. tweak it. I think one or more of the tweaks are additions, such as Restrained Life, but they all start with the full LL viewer code - as far as I know. It's not that they are "based on" the LL viewers. They are the LL viewers, with modifications. Nobody makes a viewer. Some people merely modify the LL viewer - again, as far as I know. If you know of any that are not modified LL viewers, please tell me which they are.

ETA: I am talking about actual viewers, and not thin clients.

[Pamela Galli]

Curious to see what his understanding of "very highly inaccurate" is.

[Phil Deakins]

Yeah, me too

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Torrie Mint wrote:

What runs this game? Oh wait never mind of corse its all our fault. Im sorry I complained I'll just take it as it is. Good thing the software is free if people had to pay for something that runs this bad everyone would want a refund. My bad again it must be my PC not the labs fault I'll stop now. Bye

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Bye!

[Rhonda Huntress]

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Torrie Mint wrote:

Im with you I could care less to see how badly the labs hardware is running, we know its junk they dont need to keep rubbing it in.

---

 At least you do care some.  That's good to know.

 

 

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Torrie Mint wrote:

What runs this game? Oh wait never mind of corse its all our fault. Im sorry I complained I'll just take it as it is. Good thing the software is free if people had to pay for something that runs this bad everyone would want a refund. My bad again it must be my PC not the labs fault I'll stop now. Bye

---

 First, which game are you playing? Greedy Greedy maybe or one of the "skill" games?

>> its all our fault

In a very real sense, yes it is.  You see, virtually everything in SL is user created.  That means amateurs are building the content. Novices and untrained rookies may become talented creators in time but they never learn to work within a limit.  What we wind up with are single avatars that require more resources than the SL client alone.  Try a little test sometime; but on a full body alpha and turn avatar rendering off before going to your next fashion event.  You will be amazed at how much faster the area rezes and how much smoother the sim runs.  It is because you have turned off all of the user created lag. 

Also, most likely it is not your PC that is choking.  It is your network struggling to download 100MB worth of textures so someone's boots will res.

 

If you don't want to see your warnings that's fine.  I am sure there are a lot of people who will slide the complexity to no limit and leave it.  Alwin has already said how to turn off the messages but I will repeat here as well.

"set ShowMyComplexityChanges in the debug settings to 0"

If you meant that you could NOT care less (and I had to tease you about that but we all know what you mean) then you are done. Disable the message and continue on.  There should be no hard feelings from anyone any more.  You can be as complex as you want and we will render as complex as we want.  The cares and the care nots should be able to coexist without all the drama and bashing. 

[Ilithios Liebknecht]

Well "thin clients" are viewers. I could go write a viewer that displays everything in a top down ascii rendered view like rogue if I wanted to and it would be a viewer. And since I haven't gone out and done a survey of every viewer everyone has ever made, and since it is certainly possible to make a viewer from scratch, then yes it is inaccurate to say that the rendering engine of third party viewers are made by LL since there is no way of knowing whether or not that's true. Someone could have just written a viewer yesterday no one has heard of.

Anyway, you may be right that all the most popular viewers are like this but it is not a characteristic of "3rd party viewers" it is merely a contingent fact if it is indeed a fact (as it may well be).

[Pamela Galli]

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Ilithios Liebknecht wrote:

Well "thin clients"

are

viewers. I could go write a viewer that displays everything in a top down ascii rendered view like rogue if I wanted to and it would be a viewer. And since I haven't gone out and done a survey of every viewer everyone has ever made, and since it is certainly possible to make a viewer from scratch, then yes it is inaccurate to say that the rendering engine of third party viewers are made by LL since there is no way of knowing whether or not that's true. Someone could have just written a viewer yesterday no one has heard of.

Anyway, you may be right that all the most popular viewers are like this but it is not a characteristic of "3rd party viewers" it is merely a contingent fact if it is indeed a fact (as it may well be).

---

 Does not sound like it was actually "very highly incorrect" after all. 

[Phil Deakins]

I disagree. Thin clients are not viewers because they don't 'view' SL. Yes, thin clients can be written from scratch. There's nothing difficult about that. But I did mean actual viewers - those that 'view' SL. That that's why they are called viewers - because they view SL.

So I repeat - nobody has made a viewer except LL. All the 3rd party ones are all LL viewers that have been modified. Since you don't know of any, I am much more confident about that statement, simply because why would anyone reinvent the wheel when they don't have to? Why would anyone write a viewer from scratch when the entire code for such good viewers is freely available and modifiable to taste. It could be done, of course, but I don't think anyone has been silly enough to actually do it, and neither do you.

[Ilithios Liebknecht]

What's with the catty one sentence reply? You're making Phil look reasonable and that ain't easy ;-)

Anyway, kidding aside, we're all right.

I didn't realize that what was being stated was a contingent truth about what happens to be the current state of the most popular viewers in which case I will concede that they use LL's renderer. I actually don't concede that clients that don't render at all are not called "viewers" because the word "viewer" is just the word LL chose to refer to SL clients and it doesn't matter whether they really render the world in 3D or some other way. But that's not really worth arguing about.

What I was saying is that it most certainly is not part of the definition of a third party viewer that it use the LL renderer and so in that sense the statement "Linden Lab made them" when I was making a universal statement about third party viewers, (not a contingent one on the current state) is indeed very highly incorrect.

So it was all a misunderstanding of context and we all win.

[Theresa Tennyson]

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Phil Deakins wrote:

I disagree. Thin clients are not viewers because they don't 'view' SL. Yes, thin clients can be written from scratch. There's nothing difficult about that. But I did mean

actual

viewers - those that 'view' SL. That that's why they are called viewers - because they view SL.

So I repeat - nobody has made a viewer except LL. All the 3rd party ones are all LL viewers that have been modified. Since you don't know of any, I am much more confident about that statement, simply because why would anyone reinvent the wheel when they don't have to? Why would anyone write a viewer from scratch when the entire code for such good viewers is freely available and modifiable to taste. It could be done, of course, but I don't think anyone has been silly enough to actually do it, and neither do you.

---

Linden Lab didn't write all of the "Linden Lab" viewer to begin with. It's open source with submissions from a variety of non-Lab employees. Graphics presets are largely the work of a resident developer known as Jonathan Yap. Materials were largely developed by Geenz Spad of the Exodus viewer. The current snapshot system is largely the work of NiranV Dean of Black Dragon.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Ilithios Liebknecht wrote:

What's with the catty one sentence reply? You're making Phil look reasonable and that ain't easy ;-)

Anyway, kidding aside, we're all right.

I didn't realize that what was being stated was a contingent truth about what

happens

to be the current state of the most popular viewers in which case I will concede that they use LL's renderer. I actually don't concede that clients that don't render at all are not called "viewers" because the word "viewer" is just the word LL chose to refer to SL clients and it doesn't matter whether they really render the world in 3D or some other way. But that's not really worth arguing about.

What I was saying is that it most certainly is not part of the definition of a third party viewer that it use the LL renderer and so in that sense the statement "Linden Lab made them" when I was making a universal statement about third party viewers, (not a contingent one on the current state) is indeed very highly incorrect.

So it was all a misunderstanding of context and we all win.

---

No we don't all win. You lose.

There were no thin clients when SL started, and LL called their client a viewer because it views SL. Through the years, thin clients have been created by 3rd parties, but they are not called viewers. They are called clients. You misunderstand the word 'viewer' in the context of SL, which perhaps is why you originally said that 3rd party viewers are made by 3rd party people. You reply when I pointed out that they are all modified LL viewers gives a good indication of that. I strongly suspect that you meant actual viewers, and that you didn't know that they are all modified LL viewers. But I can't actually know that, so it's just my strong suspicion.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Theresa Tennyson wrote:

---

Phil Deakins wrote:

I disagree. Thin clients are not viewers because they don't 'view' SL. Yes, thin clients can be written from scratch. There's nothing difficult about that. But I did mean

actual

viewers - those that 'view' SL. That that's why they are called viewers - because they view SL.

So I repeat - nobody has made a viewer except LL. All the 3rd party ones are all LL viewers that have been modified. Since you don't know of any, I am much more confident about that statement, simply because why would anyone reinvent the wheel when they don't have to? Why would anyone write a viewer from scratch when the entire code for such good viewers is freely available and modifiable to taste. It could be done, of course, but I don't think anyone has been silly enough to actually do it, and neither do you.

---

Linden Lab didn't write

all

of the "Linden Lab" viewer to begin with. It's open source with submissions from a variety of non-Lab employees. Graphics presets are largely the work of a resident developer known as Jonathan Yap. Materials were largely developed by Geenz Spad of the Exodus viewer. The current snapshot system is largely the work of NiranV Dean of Black Dragon.

---

I didn't suggest that LL did write all the code. We know that they didn't. What they did do is add other code to their own code to come up with complete viewers. And it's the code of those viewers that the 3rd party people modify.