Are there second class "Residents"? re: classic avatars.

[Nextio]

This will be quite long.

First off, i'm not bashing creators or users.  I think it's wonderful that they have extended SL with better avatar bodies, heads, and enhancements (hands, feet, buttocks, breasts, etc).

 

I just want to start a discussion and see what others think.

 

Secondly, i've noticed that there's slight discrimination (for lack of a better term), against those with system/classic/base avatars.  They seem more likely to be turned down for jobs, modeling, hosting, etc.  Those with mesh avatars are more likely to be hired.  Keep in mind, i do not have hard data, but it's just an observation.

It's not just confined to the business aspect of SL either, but it also happens in other aspects of SL, such as in commercial products (clothing, makeup, tattoos, shoes, etc), clubs, events, and so on.  It even affects the adult industry too.

As time went on, creators have been dropping support for classic avatars, and i really don't blame them, because developing for both is a frustrating process.  For example:  Rigged/Fitted mesh, Standard Sizing clothing, appliers, SLink feet, etc.

 

My next point is: the social pressure of upgrading to mesh bodies, heads, and enhancements.  The pressure is real.  I've seen it and experienced it, with friends, groups, advertising, and even on this forum.  I'm sure most of you have too.

If you don't upgrade, people will say you're either poor, lazy, stubborn, and so on.  Some will also try to rationalize it, by comparing the price to buying a fast food meal.  It's a legit comparison, but it's still disregarding people's personal and/or financial reasons, for not upgrading.

 

Lastly, the fault lies with Linden Lab, because they have failed to adapt to the modern progress of creators.  The exception would be the upcoming Bento viewer, but look how long it has taken. (since 2012?).

Instead of revamping the classic avatars, they decided to make sub-par mesh avatars.  Correct me if i'm wrong, but they cannot change skins, or use fitted mesh (due to lack of rigging).  Would it have been so hard to include a standard applier HUD for them?  Something similar to Omega appliers would have been ideal.  It would've gave creators incentive to develop for them.

 

Now look at it from a new resident's point of view (or a returning resident).

 

• Classic/system/base avatar (Ruth & Roth).
• Various subsequent iterations of newer LL avatars (Vampries, Steampunk, etc).
• Mesh bodies/heads (Belleza, SLink, Maitreya,etc).
• System clothing, Fitted/Rigged, and Standard Sizing clothing, Appliers.
• Shoes & SLink inconsistencies and compatabilities.
• Alphas that look like a shirt icon.
• Eyebrow shapers look like a head icon.
• Every attachment is an orange box icon.  (let creators choose common icons for jewelry, hair, etc).
• ...and so on.

 

If SL could be summed up, i would call it a patchwork of a mess, i.e Frankenstein.  New residents, or returning residents, have to deal with this mess, and their first impressions will likely drive them away, especially when they are confronted with two options: keep the outdated classic avatars, or spend money on mesh bodies & heads (Belleza, SLink, Maitreya,etc).

Linden Lab could solve this by replacing the classic avatars with new standard avatars.  Would it really be that hard to make minor adjustments to weight transfers and XML files?  If they are incapable of doing so, then all they would need is an Applier system (as well as dev kit for creators), which would probably be the easiest task of them all.

It just seems like they gave up though, hence the upcoming Sansar.

What's everyone else think?  Am i being too critical?

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Read this recent thread about a lot of what you are critical of: https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Your-Avatar/Mesh-bodyparts-is-this-even-the-way-to-go/td-p/3084186

It would be great if LL re-did the avatar from the ground up like you say, however in doing so they'd most likely break most of the content related to avatars rendering SL inventories of skin, clothes, animations etc. useless.  All those things were created for the SL avatar as it now stands.  An entirely new avatar would change all the maps and bones that creators use to create their things.  That would make a lot of people that have been in SL very upset because they'd have to spend a lot of money to replace all those things. 

This is one reason that LL is creating a new virtual world.  The new world won't replace SL.  People will have a choice or can use both as SL will remain open as long as it's profitable to LL, which has always been the case.

Bento is a bit different as they just added bones to the SL avatar and the original bones are still there and functioning making animations still work.  They didn't change the SL avatar mesh at all.

 

[BilliJo Aldrin]

Yes, classic avatars are "second class".

Mesh bodies simply look so much better. I kept my system shape when i went mesh, except that now everything is smoother looking. I cringe when i see a classic avatar with the sliders maxxed out, and don't get me started on their feet.

Its not their fault though, untill you make the change and switch to a mesh body, you have no idea how bad you looked.

Oh, and Sansar will be born DOA, there is no place for "us" in Sansar.

 

[Lacey Amore]

I participated in the other thread that Amethsyt mentioned and I think change is inevitiable. It keeps people engaged to a certain extent... and yes I'm sure it drives off some who find it too complicated.

I do know I've had more fun just playing dress up barbie than I ever did in the past with the mesh body even if it was a struggle to learn the ins and outs of what to buy especially. Personally I didn't want to make a pricey mistake I'd regret and demo's or not I still had trepidation trying it all.

I do agree new residents are looked down on as "second class" if they haven't updated but when has that not been the case?  If you walked around ruthed before you sure weren't going to get a job anywhere. You had to spend then.. you have to spend now, or someone you know does if you get lucky enough to find someone with money to burn.

There are still places out there for classic avatars too. I know I've wondered at times if I'll fit in with my mesh as I move around. Everyone just have to have the cajones to be okay with what they chose to be here. I admit I'd rather be closer to those that chose what I like also but that's enjoying shared interests not discrimination.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

I have to disagree than classic avatars are 'second class'.  People are allowed to be who they want to be in SL.  Prejudices based on superficial things such as how someone looks are one of the things that tears communities apart in RL.  We don't need that in SL. 

Not everyone has a lot of money to spend in SL. Other's may choose to spend their money on what they consider more important.  Perhaps those people have a private sim with a fabulous home much better than most people.  Should they look down on them?

Yes it is true that a lot of jobs require an avatar to look good and be 'up to date', because they are the public face of the business.  That's true in RL too.  People can disagree with it but it is the business owner's choice. 

What makes someone second class is how they act.  People that grief, play on other people's emotions for their own gratification and thieves, among others, are 'second class' IMO.

[Chic Aeon]

Before the days of mesh bodies and heads, in order to get a job in the public eye most folks need to have "premium skin and hair" (and clothes too of course). As it has been said, a public job in SL is much like a public job in RL. Looks has a lot to do with it. If you are a good scriptor no one cares how you look. No one will see you, just use your products.

About The Lab making new "good" mesh standard bodies? I can't see that happening. While it might be possible for them to do so, they would be in direct compitition with the people who they are suppose providing a creative outlet. That wouldn't be good. Plus that would be yet one more major mesh body clothing creators would need to add to the growing list of sizes. And from a broader viewpoint have you ever noticed that things made for the public by the lab have a look from several if not more years in the past? I don't think that's an accident; I think it is a plan NOT to be in competition with the folks that make the majority of this world -- the private creators. 

I went around today looking for Advent calendars for a list I do every year. I can definitely say that there is a place for legacy avatars and 2006 prim building. It isn't pretty from my point of view, but there are plenty of areas  where one can feel at home without upgrading. If you want to have a semi-prestigious job, be a blogger or fashionista, or model? You need to get at least a mesh body and a good applier skin and a mesh outfit. That would be like getting a haircut and buying a nice skirt and blouse for an interview in real life; simply a necessity.

It IS difficult to live in a 2010 world these days. Even most freebies are for mesh bodies or at least Slink feet.   People want mesh furniture because it is more efficient (if made correctly) with lower land impact. There were plenty of great things about SL a decade ago just like there were plenty of great things in our coporeal 1940s 60s 80s etc. Some folks would prefer going back and others want the brightest and best they can have. 

 

So we choose our path. 

[Alwin Alcott]

---

Nextio wrote:

 

 

Secondly, i've noticed that there's slight

discrimination

(for lack of a better term), against those with

system/classic/base

avatars.  They seem more likely to be turned down for jobs, modeling, hosting, etc.  Those with mesh avatars are more likely to be hired.

 

Keep in mind, i do not have hard data, but it's just an observation.

 

My next point is:

 the social pressure

 of upgrading to mesh bodies, heads, and enhancements.  The pressure is real.  I've seen it and experienced it, with friends, groups, advertising, and even on this forum.  I'm sure most of you have too.

If you don't upgrade, people will say you're either poor, lazy, stubborn, and so on.  Some will also try to rationalize it, by comparing the price to buying a fast food meal.  It's a legit comparison, but it's still disregarding people's personal and/or financial reasons, for not upgrading.

---

at the first... venue owners want only the best looks for their employees... their customers won't come for a blocky buste with square ass on a dancepole... SL is a mainly visual world, it's not discrimitation, people go for the best look. Like any jon in rl too... you need to have the right skills, and looks in sl = a skill.

 

The second is partly true, it's not about upgrading to mesh, but working on your avatar. I still see 10 yr old people walking around in the clothes they rezzed in, orange old skins and the most horrible attachments. This is totally not needed, there's really enough to find to look up to 2016 standards. Those who don't do are indeed, not caring or lazy.

[HarrisonMcKenzie]

Something that always gets missed in this kind of conversation is this. If you are wearing mesh clothing, with the exception of toddler or literal monster avatars, no one can really tell if you are mesh or system. The reason for this is because you are sstill using an alpha to turn off the body when you wear clothes. While your naked system avatar chest might look lumpy and terrible, no one is going to see it if you have a shirt on. And while your doorstopper wedged feet look awful when barefoot, no one is going to see them if you have shoes on.

 

The only thing left is mesh heads, which the community is far from unanimous on. Most people seem to use system heads because they can shape and skin them however they want.

 

That all being said, I do have a mesh body, simply because child avatars look like horrifying aliens without one. I like to wear sandals and run around barefoot, and I like to change to go swimming. I do that enough to warrant the body, but the rest if the time, the body is alphaed out so you can't really tell anyways.

 

Mesh is both the present and future of SL. But that doesn't mean everything else is garbage or looked down upon that much. Everyone had a system shape, regardless of whether they have a mesh body or not. And unless you have a mesh head or are naked, no one can really tell.

[Conall DeCuir]

I agree with Alwin's statement very much. It is actually SKILL needed to make your avie looking good. If you have skill doing that, you do not even need to upgrade to a mesh body, not really .. except you are going to be a stripper. I couldn't differ for a longer time between mesh bodies and default/system bodies (probably because my settings are most often set to low and i do not cam in close when i am simply casually talking with anyone).

The main reason why default avie people are looked down at is because of their attitude and their often really horrible look (no shirt, tattoos all over, really cheap looking and not fitting clothes, 2 pair of different shoes if shoes at all, horrible flexi hair and those default eyes which make them look dead).

The attitude is a big problem and a loveless done avie often (not always but really often) equals bad manners (just having logged in because .. horny, no skill to communicate at all and not having the wish, having never left the noob state since they joined 10 years ago, seeing all girls as slaves and so on). They are also most often the ones who start a any "conversation" with merely a  "hi". But then, some who are dressed in the latest fashion with the newest mesh avie are equally bad because ... money and a good look doesnt gives you people skills.

I have played a long time in sl-gor and it was usually so that default avies just came in to get their sexual needs fixed and were then gone again and that is actually the same all over in sl. That's why i am often hesistant to reply to a "hi" ... there will nothing come out of it.

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Your post is a gross generalization and just contributes to prejudice.  You length of time in got ot SL is immaterial, since mesh bodies have only been out a few years.

I've run into poor attitudes, unwanted advances and extreme rudeness just as much, if not more, with avi's that are fully decked out in the latest mesh body, heads, clothes and accessories.  I also know people that still use legacy avatars and system clothes that are some of the nicest people you'd ever meet.

It seems legacy avatars are being subjected to the same bigotry by some people that sport mesh (which is more than rude and shows a "poor attitude"), that happens to people in RL based on superficial appearance.  Try judging people on their merits and what's inside, instead.

SL is what a resident wants it to be and their spending priorities can't be dictated by what you want them to be.

[Phil Deakins]

I didn't find this thread particularly interesting until the latest post:-

---

Conall DeCuir wrote:

I agree with Alwin's statement very much. It is actually SKILL needed to make your avie looking good. 

It isn't skill. Everyone who can move sliders has the skill. What's needed is knowledge of human proportions for a good-looking human avatar. From what I understand, the only people who can make a face look good are the creators of them, and not their users.

If you have skill doing that, you do not even need to upgrade to a mesh body, not really .. except you are going to be a stripper. I couldn't differ for a longer time between mesh bodies and default/system bodies (probably because my settings are most often set to low and i do not cam in close when i am simply casually talking with anyone).

I'm not familiar with mesh bodies, so I can't compare. What I am familiar with, though, are female breasts that actually look as if they are stuck on. If they represent mesh bodies, then they are distinctly unimpressive.

The main reason why default avie people are looked down at is because of their attitude and their often really horrible look (no shirt, tattoos all over, really cheap looking and not fitting clothes, 2 pair of different shoes if shoes at all, horrible flexi hair and those default eyes which make them look dead).

I disagree. Imo, the main reason why those with default avatars are looked down on (if they are looked down on at all) is snobbyness by those doing the looking down. I.e. '

Look at me. I look much better than you, therefore you are inferior to me

'. That's actually not said, of course. It's an attitude.

The attitude is a big problem 

- that attitude of those with system avatars isn't a big problem at all. The snobby attitude of those with mesh everything might occasionally be a problem -

and a loveless done avie often (not always but really often) equals bad manners - 

now that is a really

ridicullous

thing to say or think. Manners don't come into it. If I don't want to fork out for mesh this and that, it's entirely my business, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with my manners towards you or anybody else -

(just having logged in because .. horny, no skill to communicate at all and not having the wish, having never left the noob state since they joined 10 years ago, seeing all girls as slaves and so on

- and that's more ridicullous stuff. I joined 10 years ago. I wasn't horny. I had no idea that sex was even possible in SL. I certainly have the skills and the wish to communicate, and have done so all through my SL existance, and I've never considered girls to be slaves. I still have no desire for a mesh avatar.

). They are also most often the ones who start a any "conversation" with merely a  "hi". 

So simply saying, "

Hi

" to a stranger is bad, eh? That's a really weird idea.

But then, some who are dressed in the latest fashion with the newest mesh avie are equally bad because ... money and a good look doesnt gives you people skill.

I suppose it does give

you

skill, though? What skill would that be exactly? The skill to read the person's name and say "

Hi, <name>

"?

I have played a long time in sl-gor and it was usually so that default avies just came in to get their sexual needs fixed and were then gone again and that is actually the same all over in sl. That's why i am often hesistant to reply to a "hi" ... there will nothing come out of it.

Perhaps it's you who lacks conversational abilities if nothing ever comes out of someone starting with, "

Hi

" for you. Yep. I think that must be it.

---

 

[Conall DeCuir]

Well, sorry for having standards and i merely wrote about MY experience. For me it is simply a fact that who doesn't pays attention to his/her looks, doesn't pays attention really to anything. And its not about a mesh avie! It is actually only about it to pay SOME effort into the appearance of the avie. When there is just nothing appealing, neither in the approach nor in the looks, then why should i pay attention ?

[Conall DeCuir]

It's no generalization at all. It is what i experienced. Badly looking, not a bit updated avies, have usually a blank profile, do not look good in a visual enviroment and the approach is mostly (not always, sometimes i am surprised) like this

She: hi
Me: hi
She: how r u
Me: blanks out

I have a friend (female) who made it only with freebies to create a really nice avie. She did put effort into her hobby (SL) and thats visible. Also her profile gives a few hints how to approach her, likes and dislikes, interests and is not only filled with malls or free sex places.

It's like in RL. If you (generalized) don't pay at least some effort into it all, people will overlook you.

[Theresa Tennyson]

The financial model the current state of Second Life is built on (freemium with most of the economy built on exchange of goods and services) requires the perception that people who aren't spending money are second class citizens in order to work. I'm not saying that's good or bad; it's just the way it is.

[Phil Deakins]

---

Conall DeCuir wrote:

Well, sorry for having standards and i merely wrote about MY experience. For me it is simply a fact that who doesn't pays attention to his/her looks, doesn't pays attention really to anything. And its not about a mesh avie! It is actually only about it to pay SOME effort into the appearance of the avie.

When there is just nothing appealing, neither in the approach nor in the looks, then why should i pay attention ?

---

You may only have written about your experiences, but you did apply those to everyone, in a general way.

It may well be that, for you, "it is simply a fact that who doesn't pays attention to his/her looks, doesn't pays attention really to anything", but you'd be wrong. Totally wrong.

There is one sentence that you wrote, that is actually correct. It's the last one, the one that I've highlighted in brown. There is no reason why you should pay attention to anyone or anything of your choosing. It's entirely up to you. You choose to be superficial by judging people according to how much effort they've put into their avatars - their looks. Fortunately, people in general prefer to judge people according to their natures, personalities, etc. Superficial works for you, and that's fine. I have no problem with that. I only have a problem when you claim that people are generally superficial like you, as you did.

[Tari Landar]

I don't have a mesh body, and certainly don't intend to anytime soon. I do have mesh hair, mesh feet-hich I have had for ages now, and wear mesh clothes. But I don't limit myself to mesh only. I'm not here to "be up to others' standards", so, I don't particularly give a rat's left nut what anyone thinks of "non-mesh" avs. 

Outer beauty does not remove or negate inner ugly...which is rather present in this thread, and all over sl(much like rl) 

If you, general, look down on folks that are choosing how to live and look in their sl, no amount of money or mesh in the virtual world, can make you a decent person  

We all have our opinions on what looks good. I happen to have mine too. But I don't let those opinions take away from other people, therein lies the difference. Whether what they have chosen to wear/look like is fitting to my ideals or not, theyr'e still a person. Until they give me reason to believe they are ugly inside, I have no right or reason to treat them badly, or think less of them. Outer appearance does absolutely jack for me, it doesn't tell me people "worked hard" on their avs, or that they care more(or even at all, in regards to my or anyone els'es feelings on their appearance).

Folks come to sl to do..well, whatever they want to do. If looking "good" in your own eyes, is one of your main purposes..have at it. It's good to have goals. For me "looking good" to anyone but myself(and my hubby, tho that's really neither here nor there) is a non-starter..because I simply don't care, lol.

In fact, I got, well, IMd a few days ago while out and about in a store.."you know they make some really awesome mesh avs these days"...to which I replied.."maybe you should find one", and walked away from the conversation. That whole "I'm better because I look better" attitude, is pure rubbish. You may look good on the outside, but your ugly innards will most definitely reveal who and what you really are, every.single.time.

I don't even actually care if someone walks around in what many deem outdated..I figure there's a reason for it, and who am I to judge their reasoning? Then again, in rl I let my kids start dressing themselves from the moment they actually could, and I care not what anyone thinks about it My son wore a frog costume as a coat(yes, a full body fleece rog costume) for well over two months-nowhere near halloween. I got looks, I smiled and waved. He thought it was awesome, and that's all I cared about. Why should I get to decide what looks good for someone perfectly capable of making that decision for his or her own self? The answer is...I shouldn't.

Now if someone actually wants to change their outer apearance, and wants assistance with that, I'll gladly help. But being arrogant enough to offer said help-even if only in commentary-is simply asinine, imo. You're not the judge and jury here, noen of us are. Some folks look absolutely fabulous on the outside, but on the inside, hideous. I'll take outward ugly and inner beauty over inner ugly and outward beauty, any day of the week.

TLDR; I take folks at face value, and who they present themselves to me as. I don't look at their skin, hair, shape, clothes, etc.. and assume I know jack about the. I feel people who make judgments about someone based solely on outward appearance, are likely quite ugly inside and over compensating for something with outward beauty. I'll reiterate what I already said....outer beauty cannot mask inner ugly. 

[Tamara Artis]

Its amusing to read some replies

Best are ones who say "I've been here for hundred years but haven't upgraded for the last 50 years. Still, I find my opinion about current topics to be relevant and everyone who disagrees will be marked red and called out stupid".

 

---

Nextio wrote:

 

I just want to start a discussion and see what others think.

 

...i've noticed that there's slight

discrimination

(for lack of a better term), against those with

system/classic/base

avatars.  They seem more likely to be turned down for jobs, modeling, hosting, etc.  Those with mesh avatars are more likely to be hired.

 

Keep in mind, i do not have hard data, but it's just an observation.

 

...

If you don't upgrade, people will say you're either poor, lazy, stubborn, and so on.  Some will also try to rationalize it, by comparing the price to buying a fast food meal.  It's a legit comparison, but it's still disregarding people's personal and/or financial reasons, for not upgrading.

 

 

 

What's everyone else think?  Am i being too critical?

---

There is a real discrimination to ones who are less pretty, less smart, less popular, less modern. 

Modern world requires you to be healthy, good looking, wealthy, smart, with good social skills, good job, nice clothing, new phone, car etc. If you don't have one of them then you're falling down. I think its true that modern world is shallow. 

There are people who don't care about the modern world, they look for whats inside of the person. Many times they'll end up with big disappointment because they believed how bad looks hide beautiful personality... same as those from the first - modern world group, who end up disappointed after realizing that the person with great looks has nothing else to offer. 

 Its much more complicated. 

 

I like what Chic Aeon wrote, from word to word I can agree with everything! 

 

---

Chic Aeon wrote:

Before the days of mesh bodies and heads, in order to get a job in the public eye most folks need to have "premium skin and hair" (and clothes too of course). As it has been said, a public job in SL is much like a public job in RL. Looks has a lot to do with it. If you are a good scriptor no one cares how you look. No one will see you, just use your products.

About The Lab making new "good" mesh standard bodies? they would be in direct compitition with the people who they are suppose providing a creative outlet. That wouldn't be good. I think it is a plan NOT to be in competition with the folks that make the majority of this world -- the private creators. 

I can definitely say that there is a place for legacy avatars and 2006 prim building. It isn't pretty from my point of view, but there are plenty of areas  where one can feel at home without upgrading. If you want to have a semi-prestigious job, be a blogger or fashionista, or model? You need to get at least a mesh body and a good applier skin and a mesh outfit. That would be like getting a haircut and buying a nice skirt and blouse for an interview in real life; simply a necessity.

 

So we choose our path. 

---

 

IMO, it all depends from where you place yourself... I spend my days on my platform all alone, working on new products. I have all popular mesh body parts, several heads, have all male and female products from overpriced Mesh project or whatever was the name, I buy tons of stuff, only in most popular events and shops. Why? Because I am a merchant who sells things and models her own vendors, in order to sell I have to offer the best possible look. 

When I was doing photography and accepting customers, I needed to look best because I used my avatar as a model for clothing, shoes etc. for other merchants and my photos were supposed to sell their products. It was normal for them to chose me not only for my awesome photography skills but also because they knew I can make my avatar to look great!

This is a fast world and we don't have enough time to spend, to sit down and spend a day or two with every new person we meet on a daily basis.

We HAVE to make fast decisions based ONLY on looks! 

We have to make an assumption that, the person who doesn't pay attention to their outer appearance lacks something, because we're used to think that looks, among other things, do matter. It isn't hard to spend few hours and create good looking avatar, some people do it and some don't. Its not mine to ask why they didn't try harderto fit in the world where they obviously spend a significant amount of time. 

The world goes forward, first class goes in the first row, second class goes in the second row and each of us is free to try (or don't try at all) and see where we manage to place ourselves. 

 

 

[Tari Landar]

---

Tamara Artis wrote:

 

We HAVE to make fast decisions based ONLY on looks! 

We have to make an assumption that, the person who doesn't pay attention to their outer appearance lacks something, because we're used to think that looks, among other things, do matter.

 

 

---

No, you don't HAVE to make decisions based on appearance alone. You do so, because you choose to, but no one *has* to. For some folks being superficial works really well, it's how they choose to live their life(sl or rl). It is still, very much, a conscious choice to do so, though. 

[Phil Deakins]

---

Tamara Artis wrote:

We HAVE to make fast decisions based ONLY on looks! 

We have to make an assumption that, the person who doesn't pay attention to their outer appearance lacks something, because we're used to think that looks, among other things, do matter.

---

Actually, we don't have to make decisions and assumptions based "ONLY" on looks, "because we're used to think that looks, among other things, do matter". I believe I'm right in saying that we are used to thinking that beauty is only skin deep, therefore beauty doesn't really matter (which is just as well, because there seems to be a lot fewer good looking girls in SL these days than there used to be, including pre-mesh times ). As for appearance, I'm sure we are used thinking that it matters only to whoever we want it to matter to. That covers the whole 'looks'. So I disagree with you about having to make decisions and assumptions based solely on looks.

Of course, in some cases, decisions have to made based on looks - models, for instance - but those cases are not the norm, and what the inner person is like doesn't matter, but I think we're discussing generalities here, and not specific cases.

 

[Madelaine McMasters]

I think I'm in complete agreement with you, insofar as what constitutes a "second class" resident to me is for me to decide. I might extend your list of second class actions to include judging on looks when the context doesn't call for it (though I'm not sure just what contexts call for it). And that might put people who see classic avatars as representing a second class in my second class.

This places me in the unavoidable situation of encountering people who judge me by my looks... and not caring.

;-).

[Syo Emerald]

I love my mesh attachments and body replacements and I never want to miss them ever again. I honestly don't care, if its too complicated for someone...based on that SL should have been closed a decade ago, because there will always be someone who can't even be bothered to read instructions (no matter how complicated they might be). And judgement based on avatar apperance has always been there. Thats nothing new. People have assumed stuff about you based on your avatar all the time. Hell, even I do that, when I see a certain "stereotype" walking past me. And if you looked like crap, you looked like crap...the only thing that changed is what some consider "crap" now.

I think LL doesn't dare to touch the standart avatar for technical reasons. The out-cry would be too big, especially among those, who now prefer to stay 100% classic avatar.

[Pamela Galli]

Ha ha a frog costume! 

[Conall DeCuir]

An avatar is (for me) like a book cover. If it looks interesting (attire and profile), i will pick it up even if its not a theme i would normally read (different interests/expectations), open it and read a few lines (aka i will approach in open chat or IM). Should it turn out to be boring (because i have to do all the talk), i will place it back in the shelf. That doesn't means i wouldn''t talk casually with someone who has not upgraded in years or whose profile is empty... maybe he or she is interesting, but i would not approach by myself.

I am not in a yahoo chatroom but in second life and the visual is one of the things which are important in here (for me!). Otherwise we (me) wouldn't need good graphic cards but only goold skills in emoting (which i have).

Btw, for all the ones who think i am someone unpleasing to be with. There are countless ex-noobs who will disagree because i took them by the hand and pimped them up (skin, shape, starter AO, eyes, a free dance, hair, a ballroom gown and a pair of jeans + several tips about what not and what to do) without telling them they need a mesh avie. Each one didn't cost me more then maybe 80 L$ but hey, they looked really good when we had finished.

[VanillaSunsets]

You are not being too critical, asking yourself and this community a question is good, you will, as you see, get many perspectives. One thing not mentioned is that a majority of ppl do not even realize they are judging, it takes less then a split second for your mind to form an impression of a person. Same goes for a situation. And you will act and interact based on the impression without realizing you have put that person "in a box", labeled probably nice, probably rude, probably smart or whatever. Sadly this goes also for skin color, where you live and many other factors that are making ppl see and therefor treat you a certain way.

The trick is to try to realize humans are made that way... it was useful at one time when we lived in caves, tribes and were actually in real danger at times. The other, more important, trick is to try to be conscious of the fact we do this by nature and think another split second and be sure not to judge that fast.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

Haven't you ever heard of not judging a book by it's cover?  Maybe a particular artwork on a book attracts you too it and that's fine. Judging people by superficial appearance is not. 

In your first post you did generalize about all legacy avatars and disparaged them all, while your comments about equally bad people in mesh qualified your statement by the use of the word 'some'.  It seemed clear to me that you thought all legacy avatars were not up to snuff no matter how well done they were and bad people to boot.  Maybe next time you should choose your words more carefully.