Are there second class "Residents"? re: classic avatars.

[Conifer Dada]

I have no plans to change from my system avatar to a mesh one and I don't feel like a second class citizen.  I do have some mesh clothing, shoes, hair etc. so I'm not anti-mesh.

I see lots of mesh avatars and I will say they tend to have smoother contours and better detailing than system avatars.  But despite the better detailing, a lot of mesh avatars are poorly proportioned - that could be down to the owner if they're modifiable.  And mesh avatars often have a plastic look to them.  And since I find that mesh avatars take ages to rez or they appear as jelly dolls because I have my complexity set to around 100,000, their effect is a bit lost on me!

[Codex Alpha]

I wear a classic avatar from the very first day I started SL.

I guess I'm a second class citizen, but I neither feel that way, nor would I care if others thought that way.

My Canada Jeans I wear I found in a freebie shop, and I wear them to this day. Although I have bought some and sometimes wear mesh clothing, imo it never looks quite right, a bit too frumpy compared to the lean and clean designs offered to classic avatars.

In my opinion, when I travel about SL, I laugh at the so-called 'first class' avatars, who look like freakishly inhuman specimens with 10 inch lashes, 20 lb boobs and 8 foot legs. The male avatars are equally as laughable, as they even would make Superman appear to be a weakling with how some are built.

If I could find a reasonable designed male avatar that was of normal, average and scaled proportions then I might switch. Until then, I have no desire walking around as a 9 foot Minotaur fake version of myself.

The scale is screwed up enough already in SL. I wear, design and play and buy things with the default avatar and its scale (approx 5'8 - 6ft which is still tall enough for a male) in mind.

If anything that separates one user of SL from another is those who are stuck with nicknames or first names only followed by 'resident', while others have the privilege, status and now clearly elitist ability to have first names "Jadewyn Wildfire", "Johnny Shotwater", "Alyssa Philborne".

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Conall DeCuir wrote:

For me it is simply a fact that who doesn't pays attention to his/her looks, doesn't pays attention really to anything. And its not about a mesh avie! It is actually only about it to pay SOME effort into the appearance of the avie. When there is just nothing appealing, neither in the approach nor in the looks, then why should i pay attention ?

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Interesting. Hmm, I paid enough attention to my avatar to please myself - that's all that matters. Second of all, we all have different interests in SL. Perhaps you like to spend more time detailing your avatar and your Barbie house. I spend more time paying attention to other things that interest me.

My matches in SL will be from those with stimulating intellectual insights, and other creative types. I couldn't care less what their avatar looked like - beauty (even simulated beauty) in SL is just as skin deep as in RL.

It's okay, you can do what you like, I suppose - it's good to know why SL seems very antisocial at times.. perhaps it's my avatar that simply isn't 'up to standard and is second - class".

Never mind the person behind the avatar - they're as worthless as you judge from their avatar alone.

 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

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entity0x wrote:

 

If anything that separates one user of SL from another is those who are stuck with nicknames or first names only followed by 'resident', while others have the privilege, status and now clearly elitist ability to have first names "Jadewyn Wildfire", "Johnny Shotwater", "Alyssa Philborne".

 

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So I guess some people think that avatars with a last name AND mesh bodies etc. are the creme dela creme!  How can a 'Resident' hope to compete against that?  /me rolls eyes



[Tari Landar]

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entity0x wrote:

 

If anything that separates one user of SL from another is those who are stuck with nicknames or first names only followed by 'resident', while others have the privilege, status and now clearly elitist ability to have first names "Jadewyn Wildfire", "Johnny Shotwater", "Alyssa Philborne".

 

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This, to me, sounds just as snobbish, and ridiculous, as judging all avatars by their looks alone, or rather stating that we all *must* or *have to* judge avatars by their looks alone, as previously stated by folks in this thread

You may have run across some folks who act all snobbish or elitist because they have first names, but I assure you, most of us that happen to have a first name and a legacy last name, aren't like that We just happen t have started before the resident tag came out, so we happen to have smething you do not. It doesn't make us better people, privileged, of higher status, elitist, whatever else you want to call it. Those you do run across that honestly feel superior, or act it, because of a last name, are the same folks thta feel superior because they feel their outward beauty radiates....but since they're pretty ugly folks in the inside, I wouldn't pay them much mind, personally.

I think it's beyond ridiculous to assume that most, or even all, of us with legacy names, feel a particular way about those with the resident last name. Actually, I find that insulting. I, personally, look at avatars as more than their last name, more than their physical appearance(s), more than meets the eye...the same way I look at folks in rl. Making assumptions about how people see other people, or what they think of other people, based on asinine judgements, is as bad as the asnine judgments themselves.

 

[Phil Deakins]

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entity0x wrote:

If anything that separates one user of SL from another is those who are stuck with nicknames or first names only followed by 'resident', while others have the privilege, status and now clearly elitist ability to have first names "Jadewyn Wildfire", "Johnny Shotwater", "Alyssa Philborne".

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Do I detect a note of envy there?

 

Having read, and posted in, this thread, it seems to me that the differences are in the ways people think about SL. For some, the avatar itself is important - making it look as good as they can. For others, other things are important, such as running a business, socialising, being employed, etc. None of it is exclusive of course, because everyone mixes the various aspect, but it's a case of how each individual sees the importance of the various aspects of SL.

That being the case, and I'm sure it is, then there are no first, second, third or lower class residents. Those who do well in business could imagine that they are a better class of resident than those who don't do well or don't even enter into a business. Those who are employed could imagine that they are a better class because they make SL work for them. Those who do it all for free could imagine that they are better. Those who 'look' better could imagine that they are a better class because they are handsome, or beautiful, or know how to dress really well. Etc. etc. All of it would be pure imagination, and nothing to do with reality.

There is only one class of SL resident - 'user class'. That's the only class there is. Some may imagine themselves as being a cut above other residents, but they'd be wrong. Even Miss Chung is merely a resident - user class - just the same as everybody else.

[Alazarin Mondrian]

I have mixed feelings about mesh avatars and clothes. Yes, they can look great. Even mesh bodies and outfits can suffer from the 'Frankenstein' effect. My biggest gripe about mesh, though, is that it's a money pit. Just spent a small fortune tricking out your avatar? Guess what, you'll have to junk the lot and start all over again at an even greater expense just to stand still socially. And then there's the avatars with their fat legs a yard apart with hips and ass that look more like a table and back-breaking watermelon boobs. Or the beefcake gorillas with impossibly chiselled abs, arms like tree trunks and mile-wide shoulders. But at least mesh [and sculptie outfits to a lesser extent] don't suffer from the pants painted up the crack of your ass effect which only looks good if you're going for the 'tight pants' look.

 

But seriously, folks, is it just me with my limited experience of mesh or is it always the case that mesh clothes and bodies allow the user less control over their shape than system clothes and avatars?

 

What I would like to see:

1] Standard Linden Lab mesh bodies that respond to a full range of shape slider controls and are fully user-moddable. But made non-transferrable so as not to compete with existing content creators.

2] A utility that would allow users to remap their system clothes, skins, etc onto a mesh body. Again, so as not to compete with existing content creators, the utility would only work with the standard Linden Lab mesh bodies.

3] A better way of making mesh clothes respond to body size so that things like boob size, body build, etc., don't change from outfit to outfit.

[Conifer Dada]

What I'd like to see is an improved standard 'system' avatar mesh, with more subdivisions to give a smoother shape and better joint articulation.  Then we could still wear the same skins, keep the same shapes and make all the same adjustments without being tempted to go for a 'mesh' body, at least if we have human shaped avatars, that is. Also the clothes'fit' adjustments could be refined so that system clothes could look more realistic.  'System' can't compete with 'mesh' when it comes to dresses, skirts, coats or loose-fitting clothes, but for clothes that are skin-tight or even just fairly tight, it can compete, and more so if it's tweaked a bit.

[Codex Alpha]

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Conifer Dada wrote:

What I'd like to see is an improved standard 'system' avatar mesh, with more subdivisions to give a smoother shape and better joint articulation.  Then we could still wear the same skins, keep the same shapes and make all the same adjustments without being tempted to go for a 'mesh' body, at least if we have human shaped avatars, that is. Also the clothes'fit' adjustments could be refined so that system clothes could look more realistic.  'System' can't compete with 'mesh' when it comes to dresses, skirts, coats or loose-fitting clothes, but for clothes that are skin-tight or even just fairly tight, it can compete, and more so if it's tweaked a bit.

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Yes, standards are always good, some default we can all work with. The default avatar SL gives the new player (at least which is humanoid) should at least be consistent, so we can make stuff for them.

 

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Phil Deakins wrote:

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entity0x wrote:

If anything that separates one user of SL from another is those who are stuck with nicknames or first names only followed by 'resident', while others have the privilege, status and now clearly elitist ability to have first names "Jadewyn Wildfire", "Johnny Shotwater", "Alyssa Philborne".

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Do I detect a note of envy there?

 

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Tari Landar wrote:

This, to me, sounds just as snobbish, and ridiculous, as judging all avatars by their looks alone, or rather stating that we all *must* or *have to* judge avatars by their looks alone, as previously stated by folks in this thread

I think it's beyond ridiculous to assume that most, or even all, of us with legacy names, feel a particular way about those with the resident last name. Actually, I find that insulting. I, personally, look at avatars as more than their last name, more than their physical appearance(s), more than meets the eye...the same way I look at folks in rl. Making assumptions about how people see other people, or what they think of other people, based on asinine judgements, is as bad as the asnine judgments themselves.

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You do realize that one can discuss an issue, without having to be in agreement with it, right?

My experience and observations in SL may be quite different than someone else's, so my opinions are formed through those. It doesn't mean I am correct about it, and my musings on some matters doesn't always mean thats what I actually believe.

As much as people can and will be judged for so-called inferior avatars, they can also be deemed inferior by their "Joe Resident" name, and given less status in the community because of it.

For example, when I have discussed some things on these forums in the past, I have been 'called out' specifically because of my "<Nick> Resident" name as having some kind of inferiority to the status of others, or experience. It doesn't matter that I had a SL account long ago which I don't have access to - (why should I even have to say that anyway ), the fact that someone thinks you haven't been around as long as they have, they think it gives them more authority on a subject than facts do.

I've been dealing with "I've been here since Beta" type of folks for a long time, they're always on forums and in communities thinking they have more authority due to their join date, rather than their actual experience and skill and insight.

So yes, whether people want to recognize this or not, it DOES exist, much as being judged for your alleged crappy avatar does.

Do either of these things matter to me? No. It never has. Thats why I jump into the conversation and give my 2 cents anyway. I report what I see and experience.

[StJohnOfGods]

Try having a black avie then nobody will give you help, work and jobs on second life whether you mesh or standard or name or resident etc

You all are racist

[Pamela Galli]

So you use a black avi where you know, somehow, that EVERYONE is racist, and you complain that you are a victim of racism.

How is that working out?

[Talligurl]

As someone who clings to her system avi, I think this whole "second class" thing is way over rated. While it is true that I probably can't walk into most clubs and get a job as a dancer, but news flash, I would have better luck with that here than in real life. The same is true about being a model. What I can do is create virtual paintings for SL, and be my own model, and I can dance on public poles for tips, and while I do those things, I am friendly and vivacious, and treat everyone like they are special regardless of what their avatar looks like. This past month I made a ton of Lindens doing that, so I don't need any stuff club jobs. 

[Codex Alpha]

Good for you, because there are just as many people looking at the alleged 'top knotch' avatars and laughing at their Minotaur sized stature, 8 foot legs and balloon boobs and butts and just are agape at how freakish they look.

[Eukro]

I guess this really comes down to one thing, what do you think looks good? For me, it would be unthinkable to have my avatar look "classic". The difference between the look of the "classic" avatar and one made with good mesh pieces is too great to choose the "classic" avatar. I do know some people who have absolutely beautiful "classic" avatars, but when you zoom in on them and really look, all those significant visual flaws are staring you in the face. 

[ChinRey]

If mesh avis are first class and classic avis second, where do I fit in? I use both, depending on the outfit, my mood and the situation.

[ChinRey]

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StJohnOfGods wrote:

You all are racist

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What? All of us???

That being said, I use European, Asian and African looking avatars for my different alts and yes, I have noticed the difference that makes in how people treat you.

I actually did a test once. I went to a popular beach wearing my very best African avi and was left all alone. Then I went home, changed to blonde hair, pale skin and blue eyes and returned to the beach...

I always use the African avi for that sim since then. There is such a thing as unwanted attention.

[Madelaine McMasters]

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ChinRey wrote:

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StJohnOfGods wrote:

You all are racist

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What? All of us???

 

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Possibly.

Have you taken any of the Harvard implicit bias tests?

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Have fun!

;-).

[ChinRey]

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Have you taken the any of the Harvard implicit bias tests?

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

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Really interesting. The one test I tried there seemed to be seriously flawed though.

The test went through several rounds. At first you were told to associate negative obejcts with black Americans and positive objects and the test measured how fast and reliably you could do that. Then in the middle it's suddenly switched, now you have to assoviate positive objects with black Americans and negative ones with whites. As far as I could see, the test did not take into account the confusion that sudden switch caused nor the test subject's fatigue at the second part and both those factors will of course significantly reduce the speed and accuracy. The correct way to make such a test would be to have alternating rounds. As it is now, it's just a silly game and not in any way a serious or reliable test.

After that, I didn't even bother with the other tests.

Edit: took a quick look at the other tests and they do actually say something important ...  about the test makers' preconceptions of people's preconceptions. They probably weren't concious about it but all the tests are quite strongly biased towards giving the result they seemed to expect. (Although of course, my preconception about what result they expected may be wrong.)

I really, really hope this was a students' project and not a serious work by members of the faculty at a prestigious university.

[Amethyst Jetaime]

It's true racism exists in RL and SL, but not everyone is racist.  I'm not in RL or SL.

I'm not working now due to health reasons and being able to earn in SL.  My last RL job for 13 years was managing a state office raising money for scholarships for black students.  I do a lot of complimentary work for a predominately black sorority in SL that promotes sisterhood among all women, provides resouces and encourages all members to learn and improve their life and raises money for various causes.  I find the black people I've met though both of these organizations to be great folks and count a lot of them as close friends.  Last year I was inducted into as an honorary member of the sorority.  Something that I'm very proud of.

I've learned in my life that you get the respect you give to people regardless of who or what they are.  Take people on their merits rather than your preconceived  notions and you'll get a lot further in life.

[ChinRey]

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Amethyst Jetaime wrote:

I've learned in my life that you get the respect you give to people regardless of who or what they are.  Take people on their merits rather than your preconceived  notions and you'll get a lot further in life.

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That's very good advice but even so, those Harvard tests Madelaine linked to fail miserably in what they try to do but there are numerous serious studies on the topic and they all show the result the Harvard tests try to achieve. Also, by sheer coincidence the Harvard tests do demonstrate someting else that is significant here: how important conditioning is. You do things in a specific way for a minute or two, the suddenly you are told to do the opposite and you just can't. Even a minute of conditioning is more than enough to completely skew the result of the second part of that test.

Each and every one of us was imprinted with a specific set of attitudes while we grew up (different ones for each person of course). Some of those attitudes are good and some inevitably are bad. It's simpy not possible to get away from that. Yu can't simply say one day: "No, I don't believe in this anymore and I will not think or feel that way from now on." As Robert Heinlein put it describing his own childhood: "You can take the boy out of the bible belt but you can't take the bible belt out of the boy."

Even deeper than childhood conditioning lies the fear of the unknown and, even more important, the fear for the almost but not quite familiar. That is probably encoded into our genes. We can fight it and we can keep it down but we can never kill it.

[Zenrei]

I do feel slightly insecure about my classic avi

but think about it

nayyy I can still get a job, I decided to go for one as a hostess at Sweethearts Jazz club. They never consider me as a 'second' class, we're all 'first-class' and we're a family. Nice people there.

Usually, most adult industry need more people.... so they aren't pretty picky....classics or mesh, anything, you name it! As long as you're sexy, they'd go for you. Maybe some hired dancers want to wear a mesh body, but they're not forced to wear one, they just wear one because they save money from their jobs to get the mesh body they want (not just to attract men, but to get the appearance they want).

I haven't try modelling though but I think photography can be solved if you have the skills of editing.

*cough* maybe digital artists can make their avis look like they're mesh...maybe to CG or realism too *cough*

[Celestiall Nightfire]

For some jobs, in RL and SL, the "looks" of the person/avatar are important.  In RL modeling, acting, media-talking-heads, and public speakers, looks matter. Controlling visual impact is part of the job.  Same in SL.   If a 'club' in SL has a theme, mood, or type of atmosphere, they want to maintain that image.  To get a job in such a place, one would need to fit the look. Just like RL for certain jobs. 

Not everyone is interested in the avatar looks part of SL.  Or, to the same degree.   I was in SL for 4.5 years before I used an AO, bought a skin, or worried much about my avatar looks.  It wasn't a priority. Even now, I have a classic avatar, not mesh.  I still wear some system clothes, as they're so easy and always fit.  (some of my favorite outfits are system clothes : )  

Hmm, I didn't even know that LL had made mesh-avatars for us, sub-par or not.  *laughing* 

I don't worry about a 'class system'' and such in RL, so neither do I in SL.   I know class when I see it, and it has little to do with what most people imagine.  ; )

[Amanda Crisp]

When you apply for a Hosting or DJ gig, you're applying for a job in SL's "Entertainment Industry". Just like the RL entertainment sector; sexy sells. Generally, contemporary mesh avatars have an advantage in Sexy - but there are also many talented folks in SL who Draw without a mesh avatar, based on talent and people skills.

[Pussycat Catnap]

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ChinRey wrote:

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StJohnOfGods wrote:

You all are racist

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What? All of us???

That being said, I use European, Asian and African looking avatars for my different alts and yes, I have noticed the difference that makes in how people treat you.

I actually did a test once. I went to a popular beach wearing my very best African avi and was left all alone. Then I went home, changed to blonde hair, pale skin and blue eyes and returned to the beach...

I always use the African avi for that sim since then. There is such a thing as unwanted attention.

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When I started SL in 2009 I started on a lightly tanned skin because it was the deepest tone I could find.

I'm not very much African in Real Life (a small bit, but not visible unless you think my nose is African). I looke more like my Asian and Afghan sides (even though I have less Afghan than African).

But I couldn't even find a skin as dark as my real life tone.

 

Over time I found progressively deeper tones, and eventually found people selling African specific tones of high quality (Angle Rock and the now gone Lyrical Oh, and the now retired product lines of Elysium - who went whites only a year or so back).

With each transition people got less friendly. But I was also becomming more vocal in SL so I started to wonder if it was me and if I had a reputation outside of places like these forums. I made some alts - gave then different skin tones, and used them actively for a while.

And that confirmed the bias for me.

Which is no surprise because in my real life this is no different.

 

In many places I will be ignored if on a black avatar, or only greeted by the scripted greeter. Even in some of my regular hangouts I will get notably less attention and / or talked around.

If I comment about feeling awkward as the only person of color in some situations, I will get replies like "oh but there are other colored who come here also" and I think to myself... "when, where? What kind of race-exclusive enclave in RL do you live in where people like me are not 30-50% of your everyday all the time experience?"

Or where they will come back with "but we have LGBT people" as if that was diversity. Those are still, in terms of the ones they are speaking of in most of these cases, people from their culture and ethnic circle.

They see basically, a token person here and there, and think they are being overwhelmed by diversity. But I see a token here and there, and I feel isolated. Especially when we're all getting a cold shoulder in so many places.

But what can make this dramatically worse in SL is going to a sim that is angled on some 'minority theme' only to realize its a fetishization. Like one of those 'black men raping white women' sims that pops up if you try to go to a 'multiracial' hangout... Or even popping into a hip-hop venue and seeing everyone talk in fake funny ebonics. The kind of ebonics Stormfront neo-nazis recently used when they tried to go after black twitter...

This gets even worse if I try Amazonian or Incan themes - a notable part of my ancestry.

- those experiences can make you feel not only isolated, but like when they notice you, they think of you as a 'thing' and not a person.

 

 

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ChinRey wrote:

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Madelaine McMasters wrote:

Have you taken the any of the Harvard implicit bias tests?

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

---

Really interesting. The one test I tried there seemed to be seriously flawed though.

The test went through several rounds. At first you were told to associate negative obejcts with black Americans and positive objects and the test measured how fast and reliably you could do that. Then in the middle it's suddenly switched, now you have to assoviate positive objects with black Americans and negative ones with whites. As far as I could see, the test did not take into account the confusion that sudden switch caused nor the test subject's fatigue at the second part and both those factors will of course significantly reduce the speed and accuracy. The correct way to make such a test would be to have alternating rounds. As it is now, it's just a silly game and not in any way a serious or reliable test.

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The whole point of such a test is to test your instinctive result. The sudden confusion switch is intentional in that it prevents you from having the ability to think beyond your bias.

[ChinRey]

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

The whole point of such a test is to test your instinctive result. The sudden confusion switch is intentional in that it prevents you from having the ability to think beyond your bias.

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Yes and they got it right that far. But a serious test of this kind will always alternate back and forth several times between the two among other things for the reason you give: the confusion switch. The Harvard implicit bias test is explicitly made to minimize the confusion during the "white is nice" part and maximize the confusion during the "black is nice" part and that's not a good methodology.

 

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Pussycat Catnap wrote:

"when, where? What kind of race-exclusive enclave in RL do you live in where people like me are not 30-50% of your everyday all the time experience?"

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Ummm... you mean where in the world can you find places where more than 70% of the population belong to the same ethnic group? Believe it or not, there are a few such places. Don't forget that although SL's culture is very U.S. dominated, most of the users are actually from other places in the world.

[sirhc DeSantis]

Feeling a bit post prandial I took a look at those 'tests' that were mentioned and knew I had seen them before. A few years back (post valve but still with that Blighty spirit) we were assigned to 'exercise' a stochastic AI  and those were parts of the raw input.

We ended up referring to them as the 'Easily Led Idiot Trainee' set. I forget what the rest of the acronym stood for.

What was more fascinating was a pre-paper someone sent me earlier this month that had used some of the work to run an analysis of key terms in a very specific case set - she used tokens in the form of 'something' versus 'something - hyphen - someotherthing' to create a sort of word cloud.

I asked her to run 'happy mongrel' as an input and hope to hear back sometime in the new year. If we get that far.