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Games in SL: When chance becomes skill by certification


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Rather recently Linden Lab changed its game policy to meet certain laws. The new policy was published in all details.  The following quote is taken from wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official: Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_FAQ#What_does_Linden_Lab_consider_a_skill_game.3F

"Approved games of skill will be permitted on Skill Gaming Regions. [...] 'Skill Game' refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance; [...]"

Out of many popular games, only a few made it through the certification process. Most of them, however, have in common that any decent score can be reached only and solely by chance which in turn gives the games the possibility to control the output.

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 Let us have a look at some of these "skill games" which have been approved as such by Linden Lab.

DOOM

doom 7x10_002.jpgThe game DOOM by Sushant Diesel has

- a board of 16 numbers with a hidden x2 multiplier
- a spinner of 4 numbers
- the spinner may or may not give matching numbers
- the spinner may or may not give jokers and bonus medals 
- the board may or may not reveal the x2 multiplier
- completion of a pattern marked by yellow fields gives extra points
- a final bonus round may give extra points through a fortune wheel

The 16 numbers on the board - a matter of chance
If the spinner gives any matching number at all - a matter of chance
If the spinner gives any blue or green joker at all - a matter of chance
If the spinner gives any bonus medals at all - a matter of chance
If the board reveals the x2 multiplier at all - a matter of chance

doom 10x50_013.jpg"Skills" to find matching numbers or to place jokers earn you tiny peanuts.

Only chance gives you numbers.
Only chance gives you jokers.
Only chance gives enough numbers and/or jokers to complete the pattern.
Only chance gives you bonus medals.
Only chance gives enough bonus medals to complete a row of four.
Only chance reveals the x2 multiplier.
Only chance lets you complete four bonus medals.
Only chance reveals the x2 multiplier b e f o r e completing the four bonus medals.

Have you had all that chance then you m i g h t have reached a score higher than 50% of the target. 

About a possible win decides the final "bonus" round with its fortune wheel. Solely and exclusively by chance. The machine could throw a pair of dice as well.

In general, all but two bonuses are a mere decoration. After having all chances and applying all "skills" your score is still so low that only the 2x multiplier of the fortune wheel might get you a win.

And there is the killer of chance and skills, the Doom "bonus". Gives nothing, nada, niente, nichts, rien. Please try again. Better luck next time.

Any scoring depends solely upon chance, even the peanut points achieved by "skills." You cant apply any skills when the spinner does not give you any number or joker round after round. Could be as many as 6 out of 10.

Linden Lab: "'Skill Game refers to any game: 1) whose outcome is determined by skill and is not contingent, in whole or in material part, upon chance."

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Nobody cares. You have misunderstood the process. None of these "made it through certification". Linden Lab is not certifying games.

 

Make whatever game you like and pay legal council to provide documentation that your game meets their requirements, then pay the required fee to LL.

 

Finish.

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I agree in one point: Nobody cares. Otherwise there is enough documentation in the Linden Lab guidelines:

Skill games must be determined by skill. The most common legal standard is known as the predominance test or dominant factor test. Courts employing the predominance test assess which of two elements – skill or chance – is the dominating factor in determining the result of the game. The predominance test can be thought of as a simple math ratio. If skill accounts for at least 51% of the outcome of the game, then it is the predominant factor, and the game would be considered one of skill in those jurisdictions that apply the predominance test.

Skill games may not be contigent, in whole or in material part upon chance. The second accepted legal standard is known as the material element test. Under this test, gambling occurs even if skill is the dominant factor, as long as chance is a material element. The material element test is a more stringent standard, because it prohibits even those games whose outcomes are determined primarily by skill, so long as chance plays a material role. This test cannot be satisfied by simple mathematical ratios, and the ultimate determination with respect to any particular game will always depend upon a fact-intensive inquiry weighing the relative roles that skill and chance play in each game.

Games that award bonuses or impose penalties that are random or unpredictable through the use of any reasonably achievable skill or strategy will be deemed noncompliant with the Skill Gaming Policy and will be rejected.

Any games that set minimum target scores so high that players cannot achieve them without relying on bonuses will be deemed noncompliant with the Skill Gaming Policy and will be rejected.

[end of quotes; bold type in source]

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DOOM [continuation]

From 56 recorded games have been 8 wins and 48 losses.

32 of the lost games have been under 50% of the target score, so out of reach of any fortune wheel bonus. The scores remained so low because there were not enough bonuses in the 10 rounds. Neither of those bonuses could have been found or determined by skill.

A further 15 games could have been won only when the 2x multiplier had appeared in the fortune wheel bonus round.

One other game would have been won with the 8k bonus too.

It is finally interesting to mention that, from the 8 bonuses of the final fortune wheel, the 5000 bonus appeared 15 times, almost twice as much as the average chance of 1/8th of 56 = 8. Why is that of interest? On the fortune wheel the 5000 bonus comes right before thje 2x multiplier. So the fortune wheel enjoys to stop one step before the winning 2x multiplier, if it not decides to roll over and stop only one step after the 2x at the Doom "bonus." Thus I count Doom to the games with a kidding factor which may or may not animate to continue playing.

Games that award bonuses or impose penalties that are random or unpredictable through the use of any reasonably achievable skill or strategy will be deemed noncompliant with the Skill Gaming Policy and will be rejected.

Any games that set minimum target scores so high that players cannot achieve them without relying on bonuses will be deemed noncompliant with the Skill Gaming Policy and will be rejected.

[end of quotes; bold type in source]

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Sassy Romano wrote:

Nobody cares. You have misunderstood the process. None of these "made it through certification". Linden Lab is not certifying games.

 

Make whatever game you like and pay legal council to provide documentation that your game meets their requirements, then pay the required fee to LL.

 

Finish.

The word LL uses is "approved."

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Second_Life_Skill_Gaming_Approved_Participants

Approved is not the same as 'certified' or 'allowed.'

The question is, "What is the approval based on?"  That would be the reasoned legal opinion and game description that must be submitted with each game.  The game creator 'certifies' to LL that the game is compliant.  I doubt that LL tests each game, though that is possible.

If someone thinks an approved game is not compliant they could contact LL with a reasoned statement why they think it isn't.  However, I don't think an AR would be the way to handle it. 

But like you said, most people don't care. 

If Gamesreporter is so concerned then he/she should contact LL directly. 

Most of us here don't really care either.  We are not interested in policing SL.

 

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Perrie Juran wrote:

If someone thinks an approved game is not compliant they could contact LL with a reasoned statement why they think it isn't.  However, I don't think an AR would be the way to handle it. 


Can only speak from my own experience - a client of mine was once wrongfully accused of selling Skill Games.

The wording of the warning indicated that the object was "reported to be violating the Skill Games Policy", but naturally it isn't possible to find by whom. Or how. Or why.

It was always my suspicion that the reporting was done via automated means, checking a log of a specific (and not secret) LSL function. But it does alude to the possibility of policing.

There is a mechanism for Skill Games-familiar professionals (was not able to determine they had Linden names, but clearly in LL's employ) to check the LSL within objects to... 'approve'. My client was cleared by this mechanism.

 

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Sassy Romano : '...what was the intent of the original post and what do you want to happen and why? '

I am curious too, all I got from the thread is I would be too bored and even baffled trying to work this 'game' out to worry or even try playing the thing, let alone feed it cash. Even blender makes  more sense to me...

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Almost any of the skill games are games of chance according the LL definitions.
All those games have been approved to be skill games by LL.

There are grid-wide 10000s of those machines in operation.
There are operators who have invested up to 100000 USD into the gaming business.
A business based by approval on 10000fold violations of the approval rules in bold print.
So probably by far the biggest case of rule violation in all of SL.
All year round. Forever and ever.

Report LL to LL?
Report to LL a business with profit to LL?
Business based on 10000fold violations against guidelines in bold print.

Someone has to bring that up.
This matter needs people, not a single AR or email to LL ending up in a trash folder.
People with backbone.
People who dont look away when community rules are violated.
People who know what to do.

Hopefully one day someone will know what to do.
And hopefully will be in the position to do it.

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So back to my question, how does it affect you, why do you care and why do you want others to care?

 

By the way, in order for the game to exist as an approved game, both the creator and operator will have submitted their application and had it approved. Thus there is NO violation of anything other than your opinion. My advice... Don't play them!

 

I don't understand. I don't play them, they don't affect me, I don't care if others play them. I don't need to care, gambling is allowed and advertised on mainstream TV here.

 

What's your point?

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gamesreporter wrote:

Almost any of the skill games are games of chance according the LL definitions.

All those games have been approved to be skill games by LL.

There are grid-wide 10000s of those machines in operation.

There are operators who have invested up to 100000 USD into the gaming business.

A business based by approval on 10000fold violations of the approval rules in bold print.

So probably by far the biggest case of rule violation in all of SL.

All year round. Forever and ever.

Report LL to LL?

Report to LL a business with profit to LL?

Business based on 10000fold violations against guidelines in bold print.

Someone has to bring that up.

This matter needs people, not a single AR or email to LL ending up in a trash folder.

People with backbone.

People who dont look away when community rules are violated.

People who know what to do.

Hopefully one day someone will know what to do.

And hopefully will be in the position to do it.

The people you are trying to "protect" do not want to be protected. They're crying because it's more difficult for them to use these blatant money pits.

Dulcinea laughs at you, at least behind your back and probably to your face.

Rocinante tolerates your adventures because he's reached the point that it just doesn't matter anymore.

And I know that you won't listen to this, any more than those you're trying to reach will listen to you. I'm only writing this to look witty.

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A venue owner puts out a big sign in bold letters:
By law, formal dress required, bathing suits not allowed.

A list of approved clothing is published as a reference.
At a closer look, most of the approved garments turn out to be bathing suits.

So whoever insists that bathing suits are not formal wear is a fool?

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gamesreporter wrote:

Almost any of the skill games are games of chance according the LL definitions.

All those games have been approved to be skill games by LL.

There are grid-wide 10000s of those machines in operation.

There are operators who have invested up to 100000 USD into the gaming business.

A business based by approval on 10000fold violations of the approval rules in bold print.

So probably by far the biggest case of rule violation in all of SL.

All year round. Forever and ever.

Report LL to LL?

Report to LL a business with profit to LL?

Business based on 10000fold violations against guidelines in bold print.

Someone has to bring that up.

This matter needs people, not a single AR or email to LL ending up in a trash folder.

People with backbone.

People who dont look away when community rules are violated.

People who know what to do.

Hopefully one day someone will know what to do.

And hopefully will be in the position to do it.

For the record, Second Life is Linden Lab's property and responsibility.

And they moderate at THEIR discretion. 

Not at your discretion or mine.

They can choose at their own whim and fancy if, when, what and which of their rules to enforce.  It's their baby. It's their absolute right to do so as long as they do not break a real life law.

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Yes Perrie, I totally agree.

Yes, it is LL's responsibility.

Yes, LL can do whatever LL wants unless real life laws are not broken.

Gambling (games of chance) in SL is not permitted by law. Hence LL's rules, guidelines, procedures, lawyer work, administrative work etc. etc.

Since gambling (games of chance) is against the law LL invented the term and definition "skill games."

There are states in the US where even skill games are against the law. If you are a resident of these states (list published in the guidelines) you are not allowed to play skill games in SL except those which are free with no wager involved.

So now: When skill games turn out to be still games of chance...

 

 

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Sassy, it is quite simple: If the skill games were less games of chance chances would increase that players would lose less. One cannot maintain that this does not interest the players. 

In earlier times, the chances to win have been much higher, and older SL people will confirm you that running a whole region or even pay RL bills from wins had been possible for the best players. The top players were not idiots, fools, losers, hopeless addicts. Sure it was not fun for owners of game places when someone walked out with a total win of 1500 dollars---USD, not L$. So the games became tighter and tighter.

But in general, today the machines are programmed this way that elements of chance (which is against the law) overrule any skills if not making it impossible to apply any skills. And these games are called skill games giving the impression that skills help you for a win. The opposite happens too often: The machines "know" how to protect themselves against skills.

In fact, players would be better off with a casino in Las Vegas, since Nevada belongs to those states with a return law of 90-95%. That means from all money put into the machines this percentage has to flow back to the players. So it is more some sort of redestribution. California does not have such a law. Thus, returns are at the descretion of the venue owner. Currently the return max is somewhere around 10% I think.

 

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We know all this.


My question remains unanswered. Why do you care how anyone else wastes their money and what do you want to happen and why and why are you so bothered about it?

(plus you seem to forget that many of us are not resident in a country with such laws that ban gambling and hence we find it all rather ridiculous and a fuss about nothing.  As I said, gambling is completely legal here and advertised on TV.  I'm completely at a loss as to understanding why how someone choses to throw their money away (on a game of chance or skill or whatever) is any concern of mine or even that of any governing state.)

For most of us, banning marketplace would save the majority of people far more money than the minority interest (or disinterest) in the whole gaming scene in SL.

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gamesreporter wrote:

Yes Perrie, I totally agree.

Yes, it is LL's responsibility.

Yes, LL can do whatever LL wants unless real life laws are not broken.

Gambling (games of chance) in SL is not permitted by law. Hence LL's rules, guidelines, procedures, lawyer work, administrative work etc. etc.

Since gambling (games of chance) is against the law LL invented the term and definition "skill games."
 

 

I'm not up to tracking the etymology of the term 'skill game' but LL did not invent the term nor the general definition.  As far as online games are concerned actually it may have been Disney who really popularised the term.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_skill-based_game

 


gamesreporter wrote:"

There are states in the US where even skill games are against the law. If you are a resident of these states (list published in the guidelines) you are not allowed to play skill games in SL except those which are free with no wager involved.

So now: When skill games turn out to be still games of chance...

 

 

Is this supposed to be an open ended question?

I'm not a Lawyer and my guess is that the vast majority of those of us who post here are not Lawyers either.  So at best the only answer we can give is based on a tiny bit of legal knowledge and logic.

As far as I can decipher you are convinced that some of the skill games in SL are really games of chance. But in the end it would be up to a Court of Law to decide.  The purveyors of these games have certified to LL that they are legal.  LL has accepted these certifications.  So any further action would be up to a Court of Law.

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LOL, gamesreporter. Complaining about skill games in a forum which purpous is to promote skill games is very clever (NOT). Do you also go to the frogs to complain about a swamp? Hahaha, you are a funny guy! What a pity that the SL red light district doesn't have a forum, or I bet you'd look for allies there to ban those immoral activities.

 

My advice to you: Open your own region and develop skill games that match your sense of fairness. And then let the market decide. That might actually work better than trying to improve the world with moral speeches.

 

PS: As someone who understands a lot about statistics and probability, let me tell you that any game that would really be based on 51% of skill would ultimately mean that single people hack the system. And they would take ALL of the profits. So any government saying that they only allow skill games is necessarily hipocrite, knowing that it CANNOT exist. You are welcome to open up your own place - as I said before - and prove me wrong. But you'll only lose money...

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  • 4 months later...

I think anyone that does not understand what skilled gaming is and what chance gaming is needs to check out popo.com, they have both on their web sight. And I can say their games are fair.

The gaming of SL are games of chance, the the machine decides your out come. There is no skill when there is no thought or planning of your own moves in a game.

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  • 9 months later...

there s no skill in games in second life.
they are all set up by the owner. if he wants the odds to be  1 /10 , it s 1 /10.. no skill.. owner rules..

the word " skill " is just to make people to think they can use skill to beat a machine. but there s no skill needed as i said. never forget.. you will be playing against a rigged machine with winng odds prepared by the owner. you will loose whatever you do, if the next game is set up to be lost.

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