Problems with Mesh Clothing and Standard Sizes

[Jennifer Boyle]

I initially refused to change my shape to fit mesh clothing.  I started making copies that I would alter to make specific can't-live-without garments fit.  Then I decided to try standard sizes.  I made copies of my shape with the sliders that are specified for standard sizes set to the standard sizes.  I compared them to each other and to my regular shape, and it was hard to tell the difference between a standard small shape and my regular shape.  I decided to just become a standard size small so I wouldn't have to alter anything to get mesh clothes to fit well.

Here's the problem:  Some standard size clothes still don't fit.  I tried on the demo for a beautiful strapless formal today, and the front stood at least 3 CM away from my shape.  The creator is first rate, so I don't think it's anything she did wrong.

What is going on?  I'm exactly a standard size, but the same size dress fits very poorly.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

I don't even know what a "standard" size would be.  The creator of any prim garment has to pick a size to fit the garment to.  The creator uses what they think will fit the most avatar shapes........but that's about all they can do.  There really is no standard size.  What I would consider a standard size probably is far removed from what you would consider a standard size.

That fitting of clothing is one of the primary reasons I learned to make my own prim clothing a few years ago.  Since I don't know how to do mesh I just don't purchase mesh clothing.  All the rest I make myself, fitted to my shape.  I don't sell my clothing creations so I don't have a problem with trying to find a size that fits anyone except me.

[Charolotte Caxton]

Standard Sizing is a method that was developed to make it easier for customers and creators to communicate with each other how things would fit.

When you go to the shoe store in RL, you can usually ask for your size and expect a pretty close fit. Like RL however, even standard sizing isn't always your size.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package-Updated-Male-Female/2894727

The actual numbers that make a standard size, you will notice, are not really that many of the various sliders that affect appearance.

Jennifer, I would recommend trying to adjust whatever part of you that needs adjusting to fill in the gap, or pass on this one.

Standard Sizes are meant as a guide, but are not exact from one creator to the next, just reasonably similar.

[Peggy Paperdoll]

Yeah.  Small, medium and large.  For prim clothing I usually wear "small".......but even then the clothing item seldom fits me like it should.  So what is the standard for "small"?.  The same with hair............I have to adjust the size for almost every hair I purchase (even though I always choose  "small" when the choice is given.  In Second Life where you can make your avatar as small as a child to as large as a very big giant it's impossible to pidgeon hole a "standard" size.......it just doesn't work like it does in real life.  Small in RL covers a range within a larger set of "standards".  There's small infant sizes, toddler sizes, child sizes (pre-teen), teen sizes, and then adult sizes.  I suppose creators could do the same in SL..........but is it worth it?  Get it as close as you can and then let the user adjust from there (resize the clothing item or resize the user's shape to make it fit properly).  It's a little harder to resize one's shape in RL than it is in SL.

When someone comes up with slider numbers for "small", "medium" and "large" I bet it will still be a "problem" for most people in SL.  There just isn't a "standard" avatar size in SL.   There is are too many variables for anything to be "standard".  Users like myself just have to adjust (either live with what we get, modify what we get to make it better, or modify ourselves to make it right).  Or do as I do........make your own prim clothing.

[Charolotte Caxton]

Yes, with prim stuff it is a lot easier, especially if it is mod, to get it to fit your avatar. The Standard Sizing for mesh clothing though I think is there because mesh can not be resized as easily, if at all, like prim clothing and hair can.

[Jennifer Boyle]

Replying to everyone.

What puzzles me is that the designers made the specification.  They decided which sliders were important and what the numbers would be for each size and are designing clothes to fit avatars with those numbers.  I am wearing exactly the shape they said I needed to be for the clothes to fit.  The RL equivalent would be having surgery to make one a perfect size 4, if that were even possible, after determining exactly what the measurements for a perfect size 4 were by asking the designer whose clothes you planned to wear.  Maybe they left out some sliders that are important.  I know from my pre-using-standard-sized-shape days that breast cleavage and sag have a big effect on how the neckline and chest area fit.  Perhaps it was a mistake to not include specifications for those, and maybe other, sliders in standard sizes.

I also wonder if it would be easier to fit if they made mesh garments with multiple pieces, each available in several sizes, so the user could mix and match.  

[Charolotte Caxton]

Well, you will notice, in the link to the Standard Sizes, that only a few sliders are being used for the standard shape. More often than not, an alpha layer is used to cover the chest and hips, so those numbers aren't generally an issue. Like you though, I have noticed that depending on the clothing, I may have to adjust my bust to fit a particular neck line. Rather than adjusting size though, I usually only need to adjust how high or low they are sitting. Real life equivalent would be how different bras give you different shapes. The slider's name is Breast Buoyancy.

 

[Jennifer Boyle]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Rather than adjusting size though, I usually only need to adjust how high or low they are sitting. Real life equivalent would be how different bras give you different shapes. The slider's name is Breast Buoyancy. 

You are right about the bras.  Sorry that i could not think of the euphemistic name for the slider.

[Charolotte Caxton]

Ha, I had to go into edit shape to see what it was called

[Rhys Goode]

Standard sizing is a whole lot more specific than small, medium and large.  THere are 5 "standard sizes", and they have very specific values for a set of about 15 sliders on the body shape.  So, if you have a modifiable shape, you can make a "standard size" version of your own shape.  A great concept.  Only problem is, it does not seem to work very well in practice.

I've only found one designer who makes stuff that consistently works with my "standard size" shape,  At least when I go to a club and dance, one of my big SL activities.  Sometimes, I can fix it up with a custom alpha mask, but not often.  Overall, a big disappointment for me.  But then, I only know a few designers that make prim/scultp/flexy clothes that look really good when dancing.

[Nyll Bergbahn]

Yes, I was very wary of mesh outfits initially but having found some great designers, am now assembling a collection of mesh dresses and outfits. I'm xs normally but usually have to reduce bust size or increase breast buoyancy so as to hide my boobs and make the tops fit perfectly. Only rarely does fitting mesh involve more than that for me.

One thing I have learned is not to use breast physics with mesh tops, as when bouncing, your boobs go straight through the mesh!

[Drake1 Nightfire]

With regard to the Standard sizes being sold on the MP.. all the sizes are the same height. the women are 6'9" and the men are 7'6". The only difference is is the body mass. one would think the smaller shapes would be shorter as well. never mind that if everyone uses the same base shape where will the uniqueness of SL be? My av is shorter that the "standard" womens shape.

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

With regard to the Standard sizes being sold on the MP.. all the sizes are the same height. the women are 6'9" and the men are 7'6". The only difference is is the body mass. one would think the smaller shapes would be shorter as well. never mind that if everyone uses the same base shape where will the uniqueness of SL be? My av is shorter that the "standard" womens shape.

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The Standard sizes are modifiable and are meant as a reference point not a finished product.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package-Updated-Male-Female/2894727

There is a notecard included in the free purchase that addresses the fear of cloning:

"- Won't we look like a bunch of clones if we're all using the same 5 shapes?

Being able to express your individual personality and style through a unique avatar is one of the foundations of Second Life. We do not want to limit that any more than is necessary to provide a basic reference point for avatar sizing. Of the dozens of measurements that make up each person's shape, only 8 of them are relevant to each of the 5 Standard Sizes. Even those 8 can be tweaked and still fit that size. This allows a person to largely preserve their original shape, with the added benefit of knowing their Standard Size, and being able to shop comfortably for rigged mesh clothing."

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

With regard to the Standard sizes being sold on the MP.. all the sizes are the same height. the women are 6'9" and the men are 7'6". The only difference is is the body mass. one would think the smaller shapes would be shorter as well. never mind that if everyone uses the same base shape where will the uniqueness of SL be? My av is shorter that the "standard" womens shape.

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The Standard sizes are modifiable and are meant as a reference point not a finished product.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package-Updated-Male-Female/2894727

There is a notecard included in the free purchase that addresses the fear of cloning:

"- Won't we look like a bunch of clones if we're all using the same 5 shapes?

Being able to express your individual personality and style through a unique avatar is one of the foundations of Second Life. We do not want to limit that any more than is necessary to provide a basic reference point for avatar sizing. Of the dozens of measurements that make up each person's shape, only 8 of them are relevant to each of the 5 Standard Sizes. Even those 8 can be tweaked and still fit that size. This allows a person to largely preserve their original shape, with the added benefit of knowing their Standard Size, and being able to shop comfortably for rigged mesh clothing."

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Unfortunately they didn't use the ONE slider that is the most relevant to a persons AV. The height! If they were actually different sizes I could get behind it, all they are are more or less body mass and chest size. Why isn't the XS shorter than the XL? More and more people are using sizes that are realistic to RL ones. Those shapes are all taller than I am in RL. And I am counted as a tall person in RL. My av is 6'4" tall.. which is my RL height. Yet i am usually the shortest person in the club i DJ at when it is full of new people. The regulars have shapes that conform to RL more. Why is this so hard for clothing creators to do?

 

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

With regard to the Standard sizes being sold on the MP.. all the sizes are the same height. the women are 6'9" and the men are 7'6". The only difference is is the body mass. one would think the smaller shapes would be shorter as well. never mind that if everyone uses the same base shape where will the uniqueness of SL be? My av is shorter that the "standard" womens shape.

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The Standard sizes are modifiable and are meant as a reference point not a finished product.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/Standard-Sizing-Package-Updated-Male-Female/2894727

There is a notecard included in the free purchase that addresses the fear of cloning:

"- Won't we look like a bunch of clones if we're all using the same 5 shapes?

Being able to express your individual personality and style through a unique avatar is one of the foundations of Second Life. We do not want to limit that any more than is necessary to provide a basic reference point for avatar sizing. Of the dozens of measurements that make up each person's shape, only 8 of them are relevant to each of the 5 Standard Sizes. Even those 8 can be tweaked and still fit that size. This allows a person to largely preserve their original shape, with the added benefit of knowing their Standard Size, and being able to shop comfortably for rigged mesh clothing."

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Unfortunately they didn't use the ONE slider that is the most relevant to a persons AV. The height! If they were actually different sizes I could get behind it, all they are are more or less body mass and chest size. Why isn't the XS shorter than the XL? More and more people are using sizes that are realistic to RL ones. Those shapes are all taller than I am in RL. And I am counted as a tall person in RL. My av is 6'4" tall.. which is my RL height. Yet i am usually the shortest person in the club i DJ at when it is full of new people. The regulars have shapes that conform to RL more. Why is this so hard for clothing creators to do?

 

 

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The Standard Shapes are fully modifiable, you can adjust their height.

Second Life people and Real Life people are different heights. The average in the Real World does not match the average in Second Life world. 

When you say you are one of the shortest ones in the club, that tells you that you are a short avatar, which is perfectly fine, because you consciously chose to be that height for your own personal reasons.

When I am around other avatars in Second Life, I am usually about average, sometimes I am shorter and sometimes I am taller, but for the most part, I am average. That means others I meet are similar in overall proportionality. I think I measure in at somewhere between 5 9 and 6 5, depending on which height indicator I happen to click on. I know the realistic height issue is a hot topic, so I respect your views on the matter, but my idea is if you are shorter than most of the avatars around you, you are a short avatar, no matter what the indicators say.

Have you ever seen Lost in Translation? Remember when Bill Murray was in the elevator in Japan? He looked pretty tall in comparison, huh? That didn't make him a super huge person, his height was just above average for where he was at. If I walked into a realistic roleplay sim, I would probably be a tall freak of nature.

Here is a photo from the Standard Size link that I am beginning to think no one has bothered to look at.

You will see that the height is easily adjustable.

[Kristin Burner]

mewpie mewpie mewp :matte-motes-bashful-cute:

I have officially flipped, and now i fully customize my avi for each mesh dress i wear, XS for some makers, Small for others.

I will adjust it so its as tight as fit as possible, and i will even go so far as to make a better alpha to help with a tight fit.

all but two of the changes are really unoticiable, since they just tighten up the fit. But my boobies and my butt almost always get consideribly smaller. 

I have went so far as to now permentaly made my boobies mesh size, even for non mesh clothing.

Of course i had to sacrifice my physics with mesh, and have made a very strict criteria around trying the demo to determine if i will buy it.

 

[Drake1 Nightfire]

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

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but my idea is if you are shorter than most of the avatars around you, you are a short avatar, no matter what the indicators say.

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I'm sorry but that is a very foolish statement.  That's like saying to someone that is 6'6" that he is short if he is around basketball players. Yes, at that moment he is shorter than the people in the room, but that is in no way a short height. The issue is most men in SL have decided they can not possibly be anything less than the maximum height so no one is taller than them. It's called "little man syndrome" and it is a sad thing to see. Unfortunately it is contagious, as we have seen, and with the majority of men (and now women) having heights over 75% the mesh and furniture industries have to compensate. Leaving the "realistic" sized avs out in the cold.

Personally, I feel the height should be something that stands out when you pick your starting av and when you adjust your size. Make the height numbers bigger. Think about it. Smaller, more realistic avs, would allow for more space and therefore more items that can be placed in your homes, clubs and sims.

Just my 2 cents.

 ETA.. as to that pic.. i call BS. how can the second image have wider hips and not be sticking out of the mesh if its the same top? Mesh doesn't conform to the shape.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Here is a photo from the Standard Size link that I am beginning to think no one has bothered to look at.

You will see that the height is easily adjustable.

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[Charolotte Caxton]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

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but my idea is if you are shorter than most of the avatars around you, you are a short avatar, no matter what the indicators say.

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I'm sorry but that is a very foolish statement.  That's like saying to someone that is 6'6" that he is short if he is around basketball players. Yes, at that moment he is shorter than the people in the room, but that is in no way a short height. The issue is most men in SL have decided they can not possibly be anything less than the maximum height so no one is taller than them. It's called "little man syndrome" and it is a sad thing to see. Unfortunately it is contagious, as we have seen, and with the majority of men (and now women) having heights over 75% the mesh and furniture industries have to compensate. Leaving the "realistic" sized avs out in the cold.

Personally, I feel the height should be something that stands out when you pick your starting av and when you adjust your size. Make the height numbers bigger. Think about it. Smaller, more realistic avs, would allow for more space and therefore more items that can be placed in your homes, clubs and sims.

Just my 2 cents.

 ETA.. as to that pic.. i call BS. how can the second image have wider hips and not be sticking out of the mesh if its the same top? Mesh doesn't conform to the shape.

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Charolotte Caxton wrote:

Here is a photo from the Standard Size link that I am beginning to think no one has bothered to look at.

You will see that the height is easily adjustable.

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In the Real World, that is correct. However, in Second Life, avatars average seems to be taller than the average height in the U.S.

If realistic sized avatars were the norm, then 6 6 would be tall also, but you know that is not the case, more often than not, as you have pointed out, 6 6 is the shortest avatar in the room. 

If I am wrong, I am wrong, but that is what I have seen and I thought that was what you said you had experienced as well.

As to the photo, mesh does change with certain sliders, I am not certain if it has to be what is called rigged mesh or not, but that is not a faked photo, at least I don't think it is, I'll take my own and let you know.

 

[Charolotte Caxton]

Okie Dokie, I made a lil video. I am wearing a Cold Logic Mesh Demo (from the Vintage Fair). You will see that it changes when I change my Height and also when I change my Hip Width. While that does not prove that the photos I showed previously are not BS, it does show how they could not be. Hope this helps. You can try for yourself if the video isn't enough, most demos are free.

 

[Coby Foden]

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Drake1 Nightfire wrote:

 

... how can the second image have wider hips and not be sticking out of the mesh if its the same top? Mesh doesn't conform to the shape.

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Just to clarify, it goes like this:

 

Rigged mesh does conform to shape sliders which affect the avatar bones.

Rigged mesh does not conform to shape sliders which affect avatar morps.

Just like Charolotte's video shows.

[Suki Hirano]

There is no "standard" size. They just put that to make customers feel more comfortable buying it. Sculpting meshes isn't some step-by-step process with exact same results each time.

Anyways the golden rule is that most meshes tend to be on the large/chubby side. Most of my friends all use XS or XXS, while I find even XXS too large for my avatar, I think I need a XXXS. I do not know anyone who actually uses M or L, let alone XL. Some creators decide to omit the extreme sizes (XL and XXS), which is extremely annoying. If you're gonna resell from a kit, why the hell would you purposely omit some sizes? It takes like 5 seconds to apply your texture to existing mesh models?

[Kristin Burner]

mew mew, maaaaaaa mew, call me if you own a diamond mine :matte-motes-asleep-2:

 

Well i never change my height, jsut the soft points, the ones that are hidden by the alpha anyways, so in essence i am nto changing my figure anymore then the alpha does.

But the real big issue for mesh clothings is the Alpha, its the bane of my mesh existance.  Not all designers are very good at making alphas, and not all provide the textures to seperate them if you want to

Its hard to explain what i go through and what i check to ensure a proper tight fit i would need to show pictures

Plus a Small from one designer is not a small from another, plus the backs seem to go out to far and the front to close. Some have just the front move from Small to Medium, etc, some have both, theres a lot of technical bits designers have to do to and thers lots of soft bit adjustments to make it look fitted, i could write a book about all the things i have found with my trusty an-al inspections of the fit on my avi

I love how mesh looks, but i really hate that making it fit means custom alphas, constant body tweaks, and a designer that does it so you can do that

I still like it, but i will still wear high quality textures clothing layers to. I am raniting, its a love/hate relationship for sure, but i have seen the deformer in the video, and i just dont know if its going to help much, in the meantime skip those cheesburgers and fries and eat your broccoli hahahah

Oh, plus to wear a small / xs my avi loosk really skinny, i dotn know anyone who fits in a XS without having to modify there shape.  With out shape mods in my normal already thin shape, a Medium is what i would have to wear. I lose my 6 on belly and my 6 on body fat that gives me a much more realistic look. Plus i end up with 5 alphas on sometimes which is another issue, ramble ramble ramble, hahah

[Aria Kegel]

I used a Medium in mesh standard sizes.

 

and It was really pissing me off to see how everyone was being negative about mesh. and ignoring the facts that mesh works with certain features of your shape and other features arent factored in. its not something the creators of standard sizes did, they just took the information of how it works and made it available to us so we know how to take advantage of our clothes. BUT people don't know how to read do they?

"- How do you know the Standard-Sized shapes are accurate?
The numbers we used to create the 5 Standard-Sized shapes were calculated using the results of a survey of over 500 adult human female avatars. The survey information focused on the following measurements: Body Fat, Torso Muscle, Breast Size, Love Handles, Belly Size, Leg Muscle, Butt Size, and Saddle Bags. Because rigged mesh responds to variations in Heights (including Height, Torso Length, and Leg Length) and Widths (including Body Thickness, Shoulder Width, Hip Width, etc.) on its own, these measurements were not included in the survey."

 

Sourced directly from the information notecard that comes with the FREE pack when you buy it. some people are so stingy.

[Marianne Little]

I am surprised that you don't know that rigged mesh will follow the avatar bones. So adjusting the shoulders, hip bone, arm lengts, leg length and height will be totally customiable. Soft parts like breast, body fat, butt, love handles and saddle bags will not affect the mesh.

This has been known since 2011. Look at this post for a comparism of different shapes. The mesh clothing worn is the same size in all images. http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/63769-mesh-shape-diversity.html#post1363916

And this is some of the first mesh clothing made. Since then, it's made more sizes.

[Marianne Little]

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 ETA.. as to that pic.. i call BS. how can the second image have wider hips and not be sticking out of the mesh if its the same top? Mesh doesn't conform to the shape.

 

Nasty said. You should try some demos of mesh pants and move the leg length slider up and down, and the hip width in and out. They you would see for yourself. It sounds like

you

have a chip on your shoulder regarding SL height.