What happened to this part of the forum, since when it is allowed to advertise your business here?

[Tamara Artis]

I remember this as my favorite section of the SL Forums... and now it seems it has turned into selfish self-promotion. There are 7 posts on the first page that advertise some magazine, several other gallery advertisements and posts aren't removed. Does that means its okay to advertise your business here? Or this part of the forum is simply overlooked because noone reads it?

[Freya Mokusei]

Seems like this board sits in difficulty. I admit I don't read it regularly, and when I do am accustomed to seeing self-promotional posts. I don't know to what extent this harms the board, don't know where the boundary would be supposed to sit (how much of art discussion leads to/is initiated by intention for self-promotion?).

Keeping a board clean is tough, don't rely on moderators to remove things for you. If there's something you like, work to protect it - don't expect things to change without application of force.

Spammers can be discouraged, standards can be set.

[0123Andressa]

I would like to thank everyone who posts announcements about their galleries and magazines. Thanks to these announcements I am appraised of different activities and events in Second Life. Thanks to these announcements I have had art gallery exhibitions and my work featured in different Second Life Magazines. Thanks to these announcements I have become part of Second Life's artistic community and was even nominated for an Avi Choice award.

If it wasn't for artists promoting their work on this forum I probably would have lost interest in Second Life.

 

[Freya Mokusei]

Seems (from your profile) that you also represent one of the primary sources of self-promotional posts to this Art, Music and Photography board.

Added already that I don't know if this is a bad thing for this board or not, but absolutely helps to be up-front about it.

[Tamara Artis]

Andressa I suppose you are working at one of those venues so you are obliged to defend them and therefore your post isn't relevant but thank you anyway  I appreciate all opinions. 

 

 

I agree with Freya that its hard to set the boundaries but what happens lately in this section is clear self-promotion and it is a matter of time when other residents think "if they can do it and get away with it then I will post my ads too!" 

What if I posted an ad on several websites saying how Art, Music and Photography section of SL Forums is now okay to promote your work? I have few thousands followers and could do it without a problem. Now imagine hundreds of bloggers making posts about their work or merchants who don't specifially say "buy my product" but notify everyone about their new artistic expression? There are tons of merchants whose work here is pure art and only reason they don't post in this section is because of the poor exposure. 

 

I miss the old days when I could see posts from random people asking questions about some topics that interested them or simply saying "look what I did" and then asking for feedback. There is a huge difference between a post made by xy Resident who just wants to show their work and post made by a business owner or their representative whose goal is to attract new subscribers and group members for their business. 

 

If you want to advertise your business, buy an ad like everyone else or put it in your signature. 

 

 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Tamara Artis wrote:

 

If you want to advertise your business, buy an ad like everyone else or put it in your signature. 

---

Mostly this.

On the Merchants board, it's accepted that some people will talk about their stores at length. Sometimes that's fine, other times it feels aggressive. I'm not a merchant so I don't know that I can determine that line. I am an artist and musician, but I don't typically bring that content here, and don't know at what point it transgresses. In both cases I would be hesitant about adjusting the content posted to the boards (exception being clear abuse of the CG).

I agree that repeated posts from singular sources (regardless of their output) damages the board rather than helps it.

I would also add that traffic to this forum as a whole (community.secondlife.com) is very low in comparison with just about every other art service available to Second Life users (e.g. Instagram etc.). I don't know that 'exposure' would be a driving force behind posting here, other than as a 'last gasp' marketing strategy for those that don't know better and/or those who are unable to grow their own audiences organically.

[Tamara Artis]

Truth is there are other websites that offer bigger exposure but those pages are filled with promo posts and its hard to find someone who will pay attention to you after they realize you are not there to buy their product. Its all about the money and all wannabe big famous merchants... 

This place was kinda normal, quiet, okay to relax, read posts and exchange opinions with everyday people who do their art for fun not profit. I'm just sad to see it turning into this.

Reason I pointed to the problem is because I believe there are many residents who could follow the example of those few members who are doing this now. They don't do it because, as you said, there is no point in trying because the potential exposure can be ignored and (I hope) because they are fair enough to respect the rules. 

Saddest thing is, I love those things and support all kinds of expressions, I would dive into it but when I see it represented like this, then its just a big NO!

[0123Andressa]

If there is any doubt as to who I represent let me clarify.

I would like to thank johannes1977 the editor of Windlight Magazine for providing me with free art gallery space for three months.

I would like to thank Secret Rage and LaPiscean for showcasing my machnima videos on SLArtist and AviewTV

http://aview.tv/topvideos.html

I would like to thank Dean Lawson and Lanai Jarrico for publishing an article about my art work with the SL Enquirer

http://www.slenquirer.com/2015/10/spotlight-on-halloween-mage-dean-lawson.html

I would like to thank Ozymandius and Sizzelle for working with me and encouraging me to be a virtual artist.

I would like to thank 0THELLA the editor of MAGE Magazine for helping me get my start in Second Life when most SL veterans were trying to exploit me.

I would like to thank everyone who helped get me nominated for the Avi Choice for best artist 2016

Most of all I would like to thank people who contribute to this forum by bringing to my attention their ideas, creativity and hard work. After all this should be a forum that should encourage artists to participate in a communal conversation instead of a minority of elitists who have nothing better to do than whine and pine for "the good old days".

Instead of hating people who are good at playing the game, I try to learn from them.

[Freya Mokusei]

---

0123Andressa wrote:

a minority of elitists who have nothing better to do than whine and pine for "the good old days".

Instead of hating people who are good at playing the game, I try to learn from them.

---

I don't think this is what's being said. It's certainly not being said by me, since I don't care about old days. Can guarantee I'm not elitist, and I think that's a silly and divisionist game to play on this issue.

I understand that some folks are active in the art community, and some of those people are using the forum here as an advertising medium fairly inorganically. Those people include you, me and Tamara - who all can gain something from this board. The question, as I read Tamara's post, is how to encourage growth in general: organic growth and inorganic growth, without one crushing the other.

I don't think anyone blames artists for 'playing the game' and wanting to be promoted, recognised and featured. If you're determined to play disingenous games and misrepresent other peoples' intentions then the conversation can continue without you.

[0123Andressa]

"I don't think anyone blames artists for 'playing the game' and wanting to be promoted, recognised and featured. If you're determined to play disingenous games and misrepresent other peoples' intentions then the conversation can continue without you." - Freya Mokusei

What is more disingenuous than accusing someone of being dishonest simply because they disagree with your opinion?

What is more disingenuous than pretending to be impartial when you clearly have taken a side on this issue which is an objection to people using this forum to promote their work?

What is more disingenuous than the use of mud slinging, which is all this thread amounts to, in an attempt to discourage people from posting in this forum?

Your quote is no different than the kind of rhetoric politicians use when they are using negative tactics to win an election. Instead of criticizing others for promoting themselves, why don't you bring something creative and positive to this conversation?

 

[Tamara Artis]

lol are you serious or just trying to force an argue? What you just tried to do is shame and will only harm the people mentioned in your post. Please think and reread your post before publishing, I have nothing against you or the work/people/businesses you represent so stop with that.  

There is no elitism here and this is not an award winning speech so I don't understand the need to name all those people here and kiss their certain body parts. If they were paying for your prims and supporting you all this time then they probably liked your work or got some kind of a service from you but thats not the point of this topic nor it is relevant. 

Point of the topic is the question why some people, including you, suddenly ignore Community Guidelines and probably, in some way, acting like elitist themselves thinking general rules don't apply to them? 

If you indeed are not hating (and why the need to mention hate?) and are really genuine in saying you are trying to learn from others then read this http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Discussion_guidelines and after reading the guidelines try to understand what are key elements of a promotional post? 

[Freya Mokusei]

---

Tamara Artis wrote:

 

Point of the topic is the question why some people, including you, suddenly ignore Community Guidelines and probably, in some way, acting like elitist themselves thinking general rules don't apply to them? 

---

Ding. It takes a special sort to wander into this thread and still link outwards to promotional bodies and name-drop into oblivion.

I also noticed two new inorganic, copy-paste threads appear, both stuffed with repeated and cluttering content.

I didn't read that content. It doesn't read like useful, user-facing information. I assumed it was self-promotional and thus irrelevant to me. It doesn't promote discussion or invite interest in any way. I guess it does highlight my concern, that the inorganic content posted to this board is pervasive and will be hard to replace with content that's useful to the artist community in general, rather than people who've passed eMarketing 101.

By contrast I like this thread. This is an example of the organic content that is interesting to other residents, promotes discussion and self-improvement.

I appreciate that you care, Tamara. Other than identifying the difference in types of content, I'm not sure what I can do (and worry that I'm already starting fires...).

[Tamara Artis]

I read it, followed one link and read the interview with the Andressa, part that made me laugh and believe she is ignorant rather than rude (well okay at the end I realized she is rude too) is when she was explaining how she was banned from a well known sandbox - she received 2 textures to build a green screen studio to take some photos - one was green for the inside and other was the logo of the magazine that she still works for.

Now first thing person would think off is how the hell any half decent magazine would hire a 15 days old avi? Only way for this to happen is if avatar is an alt of someone who is older and has more knowledge about the SL and how it operates. 

Then I thought why this person who gave her the texture to build a studio didn't let her use few prims and build it on their own land, instead they sent her to some sandbox full of people? And gave her the logo to show it there? 

Then I read how she - because she was so young, didn't understand how showing off a logo in a sandbox full of people, (that is offered for free for people to use) was against the rules.  

And cherry on the cake - she publically called the sandbox moderator an a**hole for not allowing her to advertise that business lol. It is right there on the magazine's page. 

 

I want to add, I find that other thread helpful too, and wasn't sure if it was okay to post links to websites of people that I know they posted many tutorials or are offering classes. And if a person in that other thread posted their work and asked for some links where he/she could see some tips for editing I wouldn't consider it an advertisement. Even if it was one, the way it is written doesn't allow it to be marked as an ad or violation of the guidelines here. 

 LOL for starting fires,  I don't see it as doing that, these threads will most likely be deleted or forgotten because noone really pays attention anymore. 

[Freya Mokusei]

It's possible, then, that your thread attracted the perfect example.

Given your post I'm not certain that reason will prevail in that case, but imagine there will be bumps felt under tyres. The CG is clearly and unequivocally on the side of organic content. It is up to individual users to ensure that they understand this going forward.

People can push themselves into areas where definitions are grey, and against other users this works with some success. Some brands succeed just by badgering folks, but I agree that's a poor tone for the official forum, where a great many users are new and inexperienced, and would rather find helpful content that answers their queries and gives them direction, than any specific person's ego-trip.

I'm not too afraid of fire, just wary of dividing things more.

[Pamela Galli]

I have tried reporting the repeat offenders but they spam so much it is impossible to keep up with.

The problem is that blocking posters does not work. The function is broken.

[Tamara Artis]

Yeah it seems there is no point in getting involved... I remember ages ago this part of forum was silent and half dead... I suppose moderators felt generous enough to leave it like some sort of playground for self proclaimed artists to make at least some kind of traffic here and gift kudos to each others. 

Funny how they post new threads instead of replying here lol, I wonder if its maybe all one avatar with tons of alts. 

 

Have a nice day ladies  

[Rolig Loon]

I am not going to get into this argument on either side, so don't get ready to throw rocks at me, please.

Those who were around in 2010 (?) when these "new" forums were created may remenmber that there was a brief flurry of debate about what the "Creation Forums" were meant to be.  Up to that point, we had a Texturing forum, a Scripting forum, a Machinima forum, and an Animation forum, and it was pretty clear that the idea was that they were meant as places for creators to trade ideas and gripes about the techie side of creating stuff.  

With the new forum design, we suddenly had a Fashion forum and an Art/Music/Photography forum, but no clear guidelines about what they were.  For a while, people creating clothing kept posting in the Texturing forum.  Fashion started to get more of the posts about the designing business, as opposed to the technical side of it.  The Art/Music/Photography forum filtered off some of the techie regulars from the Texturing forum who were properly more interested in making great photos, but also started to attract gallery owners, musicians, and others who never had a home before.  When mesh arrived in 2012 (?), the blend became confused again because some mesh creators (from the techie side) were drawn to the new Mesh forum, while people interested in mesh clothing started posting to the Fashion forum.

To a degree, it hasn't been clear what a "creator" is since the new forums began .  I suspect that's why some people may still wonder why people on the non-technical side of creation post here.  The ambiguity is inevitable and probably healthy.  Porous boundaries between groups encourage unexpected conversations, and creativity.  From the start, though, we have never been careful about acknowledging fuzzy cultural differences betwen the "techie" creators and everyone else, so we trip over each other sometimes. 

On the "techie" side, we have had a long tradition of not competing with each other for clients.  We do not solicit new business and we rarely even post completed work (like scripts) that might take a business opportunity away from another creator.  It's a courtesy more than a hard rule, but we've tacitly agreed that posts that feel like solicitations belong in the InWorld Employment forum, not here.  The moderators have agreed, for as long as I have been in SL -- nearly 10 years now.  Should the same "rule" apply in the Fashion forum and the Art/Music/Photography forum?  I doubt that anyone can agree on a rule to fit all cases.  It makes me uncomfortable when a creator is clearly soliciting business, but it's up to the moderators to make the call.  Especially when it's not clear what "creation" means, I'm happy with the ambiguity.

[Freya Mokusei]

It's tough. But don't worry, I'm all out of rocks.

In my head I drew equivilence with the LSL Scripting forum, which has a purpose distinct from Wanted and Inworld Employment. Art, Music and Photography is less clear (for all the reasons you listed), and I fully understand the logic in seeking to place posts in THAT forum as it may be the one that visitors go to, looking for that exact kind of thing. I can't say for sure.

I accept that self-promotion will happen, it's the nature of self-powered creators and I dig that. I dig all of that.

If I'm reading you right, then I agree with you that I don't think the approach is to add more rules, to explicitly moderate more closely (on the general principle that more participation = more success for everyone). I am more comfortable with amiguity. "Aggressive self-promotion" is a phrase from the CG that I feel matches some of my interactions here (I'm not asking you to agree, I'm self-justifying) - but that will always be a subjective line.

The community here is smart folks, we find a balance in the end. I hope I've been clear that I don't really have any answers, but I'm happy to 'fire up' discussion. :):):matte-motes-evil:

[Tamara Artis]

lol right now it makes me happy to see there is someone who wants to read and engage in this part of the forum!

I understand your point and was many times in the situation where I wasn't sure where is that strict boundary between the clear advertisement and innocent post about someone's work. I had few of my posts deleted because of violation of CG - because I was posting links to either my websites or specific photos and it is because of that, that I have learned it is better to simply show my work, explain what I did and how, and let the curious people find the links from the signature. 

Today when I started the thread I had no idea that the situation is THAT bad. Its like everyone gave up and forgot about this place, and then you got this group of people who want to do something, and it seems they like what they do but just by reading the front page and seeing in how many posts they are pushing their brand, I lost the will to even check it. 

 

[Amethyst Jetaime]

---

0123Andressa wrote:

I would like to thank everyone who posts announcements about their galleries and magazines. Thanks to these announcements I am appraised of different activities and events in Second Life. Thanks to these announcements I have had art gallery exhibitions and my work featured in different Second Life Magazines. Thanks to these announcements I have become part of Second Life's artistic community and was even nominated for an Avi Choice award.

If it wasn't for artists promoting their work on this forum I probably would have lost interest in Second Life.

 

---

There is a subforum for posting events and this isn't it.  Magazine announcements are promotion of a business and against the Community Guidelines, which you should read, because so is posting links to outside websites.

The problem is where to draw the line.  I am an artist in RL ( I even have a degree) but choose not to bring in my work to SL as it is too easy to rip off.  I express my creativity by building and put my artistic knowledge to work designing and building sims in this and similar virtual worlds.  I am even able to greatly supplement my RL earnings doing it.

As much as I would like to, I will not promote my business here as it is against the rules, unless there is a specific sub forum that says it's ok to do that in the description.  If someone cares to look at my profile, I explain what I do in SL, that's all.  I don't even have my company logo or a SLURL to it in my signatures, which is OK by the rules.

You and your 'friend' don't think magazines are a business.  Tell that to the IRS.  Even if they are non-profit and serve a good cause they are STILL a business.  You don't see charities promoting themselves here other than posting events in the event forum.

Why is it fair that she is allowed to promote her business just because you all think it helps artists, when other people aren't allowed to promote theirs this same way?  Being an artist myself I applaud people who assist them. However it doesn't mean that your friend gets a pass with her spam.

Tamara is right.  This forum has become over run with spam which discourages genuine discussion.

[wherorangi]

i pretty much agree with what Rolig said about how the Scripting forums work. Is mix of amateurs and professionals, and is understood by the professionals that advertorial postings is just not done. And bc the pros hold themselves to the line, then the amateurs see that and do as well

+

just some more from own pov and has nothing to do with Rolig or anyone else

when I first came on the SL script forums everybody was pretty much amateurs. Then as the time went by and people was able to make a bit of money to help with their RL then it kinda changed. The scene lifted and standards of ability and ethics rose as well

i dont sell anything and whatever I do I just give away. But after a time I see that was cause difficulties for the people who need the RL monies. And also pretty much all  people who ask for help are hoping to sell their stuff also or profit off it in some way. So now I dont write and post whole scripts anymore. Just example pcodes mostly now

i think is disingenuous for anyone to say that their "brand" enterprise, products and activities are not-for-L$-profit, that is a amateur activity,  and therefore they can spam a creation forum with their advertorials in the name of helping the community. The profit if not in L$ or RL$ is in reputation, awards and public recognition. Which leads to similar benefits for them in the RL

like one person said, their not-for-L$-profit enterprise has already gotten them exposure in a number of non-SL blogs and articles from some well-known persons

is pretty disingenuous to advertorial their posts writing as if is ok for them to do this, as if they were not getting anything out of it for themselves

+

i think that if the scripting forums ever got overrun in the same way then I would overrun the posters back. I just look at their stuff and reverse-engineer the codes and release the works public domain

i do still do some public domain stuff, but it usual shows some pretty obscure technicky thing that shows a way of doing something which can be included in a larger body of work, but is not necessarily dependent on, which that person has to create themselves 

but yeah if people were ever silly enough to advertorial the scripting forums then I be happy to overrun them back by public domaining the necessary dependencies that their stuff needs to work

 

 

[Tamara Artis]

I think this here is a nice example of how something small can turn into big trouble, just because people decided to ignore it...

This part of the forums is kinda reserved for amateurs and people who ask for help, but as soon as those amateurs who posted regularly start earning some bigger money they move on and become regulars on some other venues, places where they can reach bigger audience, and earn more money.

IMO only reason that business is, as they said, more like a charity, free one that promotes few artists and doesn't earn money, is because they can't, they still didn't manage to reach a bigger audience and collect more group members. And believe me, as soon as they grow you will be able to buy a single or double page spread, or maybe even a cover lol. A while ago I was speaking with one magazine owner who was complaining and talking really bad about some other magazines who sell their covers. His opinion was that a cover represents a magazine and therefore shouldn't be given to whoever pays most. He IS able to represent and support that idea because he is rich and able to pay all of his staff members from his own pocket. Every other magazine sells not only covers but tons of pages in order to earn money to pay for costs of running one. 

Another friend of mine is starting a new magazine that will feature erotic but tasteful stories and photography, of course for start its all volunteering but, if she manages to collect a bigger audience she will earn some money too.

If you look over at issu.com you will find tons of SL magazines, I don't know if MAGE is there but would be really surprised if they're not. All magazines and businesses in general had to start and many did free work in order to "break in".

When a business starts to earn money they are able to pay advertisements and I want to believe that this magazine will soon start to earn money and get away as far as they can from here. 

Money is essential because there are people who work for her, they might start as amateurs but they will become professionals soon and start to charge their services, they will charge it one way or the other, they will work for Othella or someone else and her goal is to keep them working for her. So I really hope she will discover some new venues and forget about this one before its too late. 

Big problem here is that there are at least 10 amateurs per one professional, at least 10 business owners who are, like Othella, trying to find effective and free ways of promoting their businesses. What I am worried is, when they see how there is a group of people who can spam these forums, start threads just to brag and throw kudos at each other then whats stopping them to do the same? How far are we from completely blocking this spam nest? 

Spam is extremely effective in killing a place, a group, a website! I used to run a business and quit it only because it was attracting too much attention and because I was surrounded with spam everywhere I looked. I don't know why people think marketing=spam, I see it everywhere, people who apply to be managers write how they are good in spamming the Fb groups lol. You know whats the "new thing" on Flickr? Well not so new anymore but more like a last form of spam people do? They upload a photo, put it into groups blabla then next day change the date when the photo is published from yesterday to today, so if you login and check your stream every day (as most artists do) you will start to see same photos! And of course you will leave the place.

I am not writing all this because I hate spam, and I do lol, I am saying this because this forum is public, anyone who is thinking to join SL is 2 steps away from reading all posts we make here and what do you think, is this a good image to show?

It was soo wrong of them to make it all personal and call me a hater, I would call out anyone who spams a place, I would mute my own mom if she did this. And I know majority thinks same but, as you could see, there are not so many people interested in this place anymore... 

[Tamara Artis]

I want to add this: 

---

wherorangi wrote:

 and is understood by the professionals that advertorial postings is just not done. And bc the pros hold themselves to the line, then the amateurs see that and do as well

 

 

---

I wasn't active for a while so I have no idea if they started this nasty behaviour or someone else but we don't see regular posters and reputable members doing this kind of spam and repetitive violations of Community Guidelines. 

This group speaks about support, community, help, charity and show utter disrespect to the whole community.