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Jopsy Pendragon

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Everything posted by Jopsy Pendragon

  1. Ponsonby said: In THIS case only, the submitted name is flagged. But recall that the message box inworld ALREADY says 'expect a delay of several days for this to show up.' So during that time, Actually the new display name takes effect on the avatar and their chat immediately, which are (or were) the two of the three places where user.name is not clearly visible. The delay is for everywhere else, nearly all of which (except friends list, so far), always show the user.name next to the display name already. To be effective the check must be complete *before* it is accepted for use as nametag/chat and before it counts against the person's "one display name change for the week". Ponsonby said: There is NO reason not to protect SL Residents from having their account names duplicated. Nothing except that LL believes that common display names like "John Smith" and "BigJoe" *should* be available everyone that wishes to use them, not limited to the one person just because it matches their user.account name. If you can get them to change their mind on this policy, you're golden, and I'd applaud you. There are other complications as well... how would you have the system deal with a new user account being created that conflicts with existing display names? Force everyone with a matching display name to change it? Wait until they change it and then when they try to go back, say "Sorry, you can't change it back now. Tough." ? =) Lamorna said: In a post Display Names world, the first person to register a name like this will get it. If the new Account Name of "omegatrix" tries to reserve it as their Display Name, they won't be able. Okay that's commendable... but I thought you weren't going to accepting registrations for "Display Names" as well as usernames was a "tbd, maybe later" thing. I personally, don't desire the protection of your service, but now I feel compelled to register with it... not because I want to stop others from using my name (let them, I don't care)... but because I don't want someone else REGISTERING my name as their own. The problem with your banclone system is the same as what people are complaining about display names. They can choose not to USE it... but that does not protect them from being AFFECTED BY IT. I fear too many will be ignorant of your service until they're stung by it... even if they had the name longer than the person that registered with you, the person is now forced to change their display name if they don't want to get randomly ejected from places. And, they're forced to register with you to prevent someone from yanking their new name out from under them, so it doesn't happen again. That... I'm sorry to be this blunt... but it really does really does seem exploitive and extortive. I honestly prefer that LL make usernames always visible by default. CLEARLY demote display names to an "informal common name" instead of this ambiguous "primary identity" nature they have now in chat, nametags and friends list.
  2. "So I'd welcome any correction to my assumption that when typing in a Display Name, some sort of pop-up or drop-down menu provides a choice of fonts." -- Ponsonby Hrrrmmm.... I admit my unicode-savvy is weak... but I think they're called 'scripts' not 'fonts', and they seem to be rather different. (Sort of like the difference between "make" and "model" of an automobile.) And I didn't see any UI control for setting which 'script' was desired to type in. Keep in mind that mixed-script names are *common*. Latin script is used for many western languages... and sometimes characters from other scripts are naturally mixed in, for example... "Señorita". To forbid mixed script names would undoubtedly cause usage problems. Also, there are uppercase and lowercase homographical problems too... so if LL were to keep a list of all 20 million names converted into each possible script, they'd also have to take into consideration that upper and/or lowercase combinations of those letters may ALSO cause conflict... so... 20 million times the number of scripts, times each possible upper/lower-case letter similarity ... we're talking a lookup database of billions of names. I've got a serious case of crossed-i's now after digging through http://unicode.org ... thanks. ;-P
  3. "My account name is my brand name and my reputation" -- Lamorna Proctor Exactly. Your ACCOUNT name is your unique brand name upon which your reputation is built. Your display name is merely a copy of it. One thing your service won't provide, is the right for people to freely use the display name "John Smith" as a display name, once john.smith registers with you. While protecting unusual names will no doubt be valuable to many... do you have an algorithm that's smart enough to reject registration attempts of common names? Of course not. Nor is your system likely to respect someone who sets their display name to, say, "Omegatrix", long before someone else creates a user account of "omegatrix". So while the person with the display name may have been using it longer... the person who creates an alt can easily use your system to harass them. "parody will be ok wont it?" -- ninjafoo Ng Depending on where you live (tyrants and observance of copyright laws vary), it has been okay for longer than there's been an internet. Yes. (edited to re-word awkward sentences)
  4. Please, for the sake of all reasonable argument, remember this: UNICODE (which is wanted by many of our international residents) makes it VERY DIFFICULT to protect usernames from being used as display names. Even protecting ONE WORD, much less 20 million, is proving to be a challenge. There are too many letters that look similar in other languages that can be used in unicode. Seriously though... Impersonation is NOT THE SAME AS identity theft. I can look like you, I can say I'm you, but unless I've got CREDIBLE EVIDENCE saying that I'm you... (passport, driver's license, credit card numbers, passwords to verified unique accounts) then it is merely impersonation, no more damaging than someone wearing an Obama mask is guilty of identity theft of the president. For the people that are worried about impersonators alienating customers... What are you currently doing about alts from your competitors that show up in your stores and then tell your other customers "This place ripped me off. I bought that there... and it was totally broken and they wouldn't give me a refund." As damaging if not more so. Or what are you doing to stop legitimately irate customers that think you ripped them off because SL, in all it's perfection, FAILED to deliver the purchased item again, and you weren't there to offer a re-delivery before they yelled and screamed in your store about how much of a con-artist out to rip people off you are? If someone does a class-A job of impersonating you... you've got them dead to rights committing fraud, clear-cut perma-bannable offense. No hearsay, no he-said-she-said, no "I didn't know" excuses, clear, deliberate, permanently punishable fraud. Cut and dried in a way that the other two examples wouldn't be. I'm NOT SAYING THAT DISPLAY NAMES ARE PERFECT. I'm just saying ya'll are way over-reacting. Sorry for my angry tone of voice... a neighbor's dog has been barking for the last two hours and I'm seriously fed-up with it.. and it's carrying over into my attitude here.
  5. "Create a parallel SL world for everyone wanting to use their real names." -- Infiniview Merit Simply not going to happen, it's contrary to everything LL has been building towards. They're doing away from the teen grid... (and even with the teen grid, usernames were likely unique, otherwise teens would be forced to change their name if it conflicted with someone on the adult grid, when they came of age). Two parallel worlds... do you want to buy land in both and run a business in both so that you're not turning away customers because they chose to be only in one world? I don't. Most won't. Which world, then, would you set up shop in, knowing that you'll be missing out on possible sales? The goals are pretty clear: allow people to use unicode in their names allow people to use casually use popular names that are already in use convert usernames into a format that is more interoperable with external systems allow people to change their informal name they're known by when they wish to. (unicode in usernames is a bad idea because username is supposed to be simple and clearly unique, even if it's awkward as a call-name.) 6000 more posts by angry people who act like they believe that display names are the same as usernames won't convince LL that we can't adapt to this change. If you want to change their mind, then batten down the hatches and prepare to swamp them with abuse reports when people start attempting to commit fraud using display names.
  6. "SL identity theft could be very similar to RL identity theft in the eyes of the law." -- Monique Rosetta Not likely. No more than if I were to slap on a paper nametag saying "Hello, I'm MONIQUE ROSETTA" is identity theft. No more than LL is guilty of identity theft if they permaban someone or force-change their name for being offensive. Like it or not, but our "identity" within SL is not governed by anything even remotely similar to the laws that protect our RL identity and credentials. If LL can show that "people fooled by display names" are themselves negligent of properly understanding the service they were subscribed to and show that they made a reasonable effort to educate their users and emphasize that display names are "Just For Show" and are not bonified identities... then they're off the hook as far as being accountable goes. I don't think the implementation as planned does that quite yet... and still hope it will.
  7. Ponsonby- I only said you obviously ignored or disagreed with me because you seem to be asking the same answered questions over and over. Which is fine... just makes attempting to answer them seem increasingly futile. But again... I will try. Let me attempt to rephrase again: LL apparently wants to let AS MANY PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE use the display names that they want. Neither 'all'... nor merely 'most', but as many as possible without allowing obscenities or impersonation of official Linden staff. REAL WORLD IDENTITY THEFT resulting from someone impersonating an LL official is something that could embroil LL in expensive legal problems. If LL does not make at least a token effort to protect their name in the service and it gets abused, they could be held accountable for losses accrued due to identity theft... for neglect. In-world impersonation is not the same as identity theft. SL resident businesses have no control over display names and can't be held accountable when impersonation happens. As to 'why' ... simply because LL thinks this is the right thing to do, they literally need no more justification than that. Many of us see it differently. We'll find out whose right soon enough.
  8. "I am replying to your post not for its particular content. But to see what your opinion of this question is. For those who want to use their real names in SL, what is wrong with making an extra av available to everyone? That way it would not be such a mess with double names all over the place?" -- Infiniview Merit Om nailed it. We can have alternate AV's already, (though they can't access our non-transferable purchases unfortunately) but if duplicate display-names aren't allowed then people won't be able to use their real name, or common nicknames that their outside-of-SL-friends know them as. Whether that's facebook, folks at the same college, or WoW, doesn't matter. User population size plays a big role in this... When the population grows to a certain point, unique names start to get ugly, with numbers tacked on, words thrown together randomly, and they start getting longer and longer. To avoid this, other MMO's (like WoW) split their universe up into parallel dimensions, which are identicial, but populated by different people. There could be a Jopsy on each parallel copy... all owned by a different person. Since they can't move from one parallel dimension to another, it works out okay. But SL is all one big world, no parallel copies with completely different populations. So, as our names continue to get uglier... having a mechanism to allow us to have an 'informal' name becomes valuable. It is no easy thing to do. Most places are built with this capability built in automatically... or have parallel dimensions they can bring online when the population density gets too thick and the names start getting ugly393ish. To migrate to this system after being online without it is.. well, like breaking a badly healed leg so that it can be re-set.
  9. "And Jopsy---'life is unfair' doesn't make sense when we're talking NOT about some act of nature, or even about some change that a company can't help--but about a choice (to permit duplication by Display name of account names) that LL didn't have to make." -- Ponsonby Low I wasn't talking about nature. I was talking about people WITH power making decisions that people with LESS power have to endure. That's "Life". This is "Second" "Life" .. and the same holds true. LL wants MOST people to be able to use their real names if they want too, where it makes sense for them to do so. Obviously they feel the need to make an exception in their own case... for reasons you don't want to hear or care about. Which is fine... it really is. Exceptions to rules are just one of those things that happen. I'm not going to waste my time yelling at LL to change something I know they won't. If anything I'll focus on the things I think I can convince them to change. If you feel like you're getting better results with your line of questioning, great. But from where I'm sitting, it doesn't look like it's helping. =(
  10. @Avi- I was terse with Ponsonby because I've already tried giving more thoughtful answers to that question from her elsewhere... and she's disagreed or ignored them. So I went for something a little less subtle. LL DOES have legitimate reason and cause to feel that blocking their own name is necessary, regardless of the inconvenience to anyone whose real name may be Linden. They are the #1 target for impersonation. People impersonating LL staff can more easily coerce account passwords out of new users and other *private* information like credit card numbers... things that someone impersonating a SL Resident Business Owner would have no business asking for. Simply put.... display names need to be clearly inferior to our unique names, and I think that we will adapt to that. Yes, some of us may have to tell people "Sorry, no, that's not me." This is something I already do several times a day (because people modify and sell my free scripts (with my permission) and often they still have my name in the creator field). It's a hassle, but part of the cost of doing business. I'm still waiting for the new project viewer to test out the changes Jack mentioned. Until we see it in action, there's no point running around like chicken little.
  11. Answer…. It doesn’t. Answer…. It doesn’t. Answer…. It doesn’t. Answer…. It doesn’t. -- PaigeTAM Piaggio Keep in mind, if Sarah Palin could have stopped Tina Fey from impersonating her so devastatingly on SNL... she would have. I agree, I would like existing username to be forbidden for use as display names, but I really doubt LL is going to concede on this point. Which is why I keep insisting that formal username be shown next to informal/nickname/alias "display name". Ultimately though, if someone else chooses to use our name, here or in some other online world... we have very little control over it. Even if we lawyer up... it's very difficult to tell someone "You can't use my name".
  12. "Why is it okay to inconvenience one group but not the other?" - Ponsonby Low Because life isn't fair. Never has been, never will be.
  13. "And my anonymity and privacy are being compromised." -- Sirius Selona Um.... how?
  14. "GRIEFING THE DATABASE USING DISPLAY NAMES: If you had 100 people or more changing their name weekly on 1000's of objects, the database could be thrashed and strained." -- ralph Compared to the load created when regions get backed up or when large assets get cached... this is utterly an insignificant additional load. If it does it on an object by object basis... instead of once per affected region, they're doing it wrong.
  15. Ceera- I've heard that new users will not be allowed to put dots in the usernames they create. (and obviously, not allowed to put spaces in, either). That leaves a-z, 0-9 and *MAYBE* underscores, and, even less likely, hyphens, and very likely nothing else will be permitted. I do hope that neither underscore nor hyphen are allowed, for the reasons you illustrated above...
  16. @Jack- Thanks for the excellent update on the project! It sounds like several of the concerns I shared with others are being addressed... even if several are still unresolved. I'm looking forward to seeing how it looks in the new project viewer. Due to the changeable nature of display names, if you haven't already... please do consider making this jira part of the display names project so that gifts/acquisitions from people who then change their display name can be more easily tracked back to an existing resident rather than to an abandoned display name. VWR-4199 user interface: add a field "Received From" to an item's properties
  17. Bring on the direct democracy! I've got my ballot initiatives all lined up and ready to go! Every resident gets L$5000 a week. Eliminate membership fees and tier fees. The people have spoken. Our will is known. Let no tyrant stand against us! "I don't fear democracy " -- Prokofy Of course not. You believe you're in the majority. Seriously though... I live in a state where "the will of the people" has clearly shown no interest in respecting the freedom and equality of its minorities. At least a "Tyranny by a Minority" must always respect the threat of all those they represent, at the peril of losing either their lives, their power or the very thing over which they have power. Tyranny of the Majority has no such counter-balance. Minority interests (and minorities themselves) compete against "the will of the people." The majority's interests are nearly always better served by extorting concessions, alienating, marginalizing, objectifying, scapegoating, exploiting, even exiling their opponents. "Screw equality! If they're not part of our solution, they're part of our problem." So when you snidely imply that the "amen corner" fears democracy? In my case.... lately, yes I do. But I doubt LL views a resident democracy as anything more daunting than merely "impractical".
  18. To be fair, the only meaningful thing that can be concluded from this sample set of 29 votes is that Prokofy isn't rigging her own poll. =)
  19. "That the majority of normal people attracted to this game are marginalized by the very development process and its fierce claque of geek cheerleaders -- even though they are in the majority! -- is proven by the very fact that NINE OUT OF TEN PEOPLE DON'T RETAIN." I will only partially agree.. and see it differently, and if I were to break it down: First, you say that like it's a bad thing. Flip it around. SL's marketing machine attracts more people than are interested in the service. If the abandonment rate was 10% instead of 90%, it could easily be concluded that SL's marketing efforts were too constrained and likely missing many potential residents. So people take SL for a test drive and decide it's not for them. Blame geeks IF YOU MUST, but I think you're exaggerating. Abandonment is a spectrum from day one through venerability. Every stage of advancement has some degree of attrition, preventing people from moving on to the next. Improving the ratio of retention at one level does nothing to guarantee they'll survive the next. "arrival abandonment" because SL simply looks old, clunky and after little more than a glance, dismissed as 'not what I expected'. Every system has a learning curve, and rather than deal with it, they just give up. Nothing ventured, nothing lost. (highest volume, high attrition rate.) "acclimation abandonment" due to 'technical design issues'. They have trouble learning how to navigate, control the camera and/or how to use things in their inventory. That can be rather a lot to expect a newbie to grapple with all at once (not that the cheerleader geeks had any direct input on viewer1 or viewer2 design, unfortunately). (High volume, moderately high attrition rate) "newbie abandonment" - "where's the 'game' in this game?" Even you can't deny that most people think of SL as "a game" when they come here. That brings expectations like "I should be able to earn the game money I need by playing 'the game'... buying money is for losers and cheaters". What they find is: no jobs, no pre-defined series of achievable objectives, ultimately no idea what they're "supposed" to be do in SL. It's like telling someone "Hey, come play monopoly with me" and then giving them a blank tablet of paper and crayons. (moderate volume, moderate abandonment) "post-newbie abandonment" - They're done being a 'tourist' and are trying to settle in and find their 'place' in our world. Do they start a business? Do they take on a meaningful role in some community of interest? There's fierce 'professional' level competition in these areas. An amateur quickly recognizes they can't compete. Unless they can find an engaging hobby or enduring clique that values them as a person rather than a consumer, they get bored and eventually drift away. (moderate volume, high eventual attrition) But that's okay. SL is a touristy place... people come, spend money, play and then leave. It works as long as people believe that SL holds the potential to deliver "new experiences". Once they discover it's mostly just malls, clubs, and vanity residences, with variations that "potential for new experiences" withers, and they move on. "late abandonment" due to technology or policy changes they object to, lack of LL support for their requirements, burnout, failure to attain or maintain profitability, financial reasons, etc. And yes, probably the "fierce claque of geek cheerleaders" may actually have the highest degree of influence in this area. Naturally oldbies tend to be more heavily invested in SL and their loss is felt proportionately. But due to the expansion and growth, the population eligible for late abandonment is a very small. (very low volume, moderate attrition, but spread over a very long period of time) Were the founding principles upon which SL has evolved developed by geeks and those premises to blame for the 9 out of 10 rate of abandonment? Sure, fine. Whatever. Blame us for everything. Of course... that also means that geeks are responsible for having a world that retains an astoundingly high 10% of the huge number of random visitors that try it not knowing what to expect. LamdaMOO had anarchistic unaccountability welded into it just like SL did. -- Prokofy No, it did not. If we had that, the #1 demand would be "fix lag". And LL would have no choice but to take whatever action was necessary. And they'd likely respond with "Okay... all textures are limited to 128x128, limited to 2 per prim, parcel prim quotas are being reduced to 25%, number of prims in an object is being reduced to 16, you're limited to 2 attachments, and you can no longer see across a region edge into another. There. Your lag problem is fixed." " What?? NOOOO!!!! We meant Fix is without taking anything away!" When a true democracy DEMANDS the impossible... and is unwilling to pay more or make necessary sacrifices for what they want... who shoulders the burden? LL? They can can print L$, but that won't keep SL online if they're otherwise bankrupt.
  20. "*Marginalizing* geeks? Jopsy, you have GOT to be kidding. The geeks are in charge here and have total authoritarian control of the development process." -- Prokofy Ah, right, sorry, my bad. It's the rights of the minority to resort to name calling and cutesy belittling nicknames or any tactic available to undermine the collective will of their oppressor. I do actually agree with that sentiment and sincerely apologize.(and I say this without sarcasm, just to be clear). That said.. I think you grossly exaggerate the geek communities' influence on LL. We may speak the same 'geek language' as LL staffers... but their decisions have more to do with money than technology and geeks have no influence over that at all. Rant away about my demographics -- it's a demographic that geeky game boys need to be paying far, far more attention to because there are lots of us, sometimes majorities in some games, and we have more discretionary income and time than the script kiddies. -- Prokofy Wait.. hold on... so ... you grossly out-number us, outspend us... and yet you, THE MAJORITY, are marginalized by us? Hmm. Well, all I can say is thank goodness we've been granted 'protected minority status' by Linden Lab then. I'm sure you'd haul the lot of us out back and line us up against the wall for our crimes against humanity if you had the chance. "There is actually some modicum of democracy on the JIRA, and it is actually less griefed by alts than one would imagine."- Prokofy No. There is not. Issues with thousands of votes sit ignored. Issues with less than ten votes get resolved. LL looks at them all, sooner or later... considers the merits and costs... makes sure the request fits their vision for SL and *maybe* implements it. They're better at reviewing all issues submitted to Jira than they have been in the past, which makes the the voting mechanism somewhat vestigial and irrelevant. "The agenda that is suiting corporations now is the one you are ardently supporting -- no normal and fair voting so that only the corporation and their chosen friends win." -- Prokofy Ardently supporting? No, just not deluding myself into pretending this isn't how things work. If you want a democracy, we need legal recourse for when LL fails to uphold "The Will of the People". If LL was "resident owned" ... that might actually come to pass. Just out of curiosity... did you ever visit a world known as LamdaMOO ? They were self goverened. Granted, it had a higher ratio of geek to non-geeks there, but did draw quite a few poli-sci types into their madness. The world was an insane asylum.
  21. "One of the things I do constantly is help newbies who have lost things And when I give them this tip, they are confused and don't eve know about this map and don't use it." -- Prokofy Viewer2 seems to have the mini-map off by default... and without a bottom-bar menu button to toggle it on and off... so I'm not surprised that your newbies are ignorant of it. Why is it disabled by default? Because not enough people use it? Or because LL thought they might be able to improve FPS a little bit by rendering fewer things on the screen? My money is on the latter. I spend a great deal of my time helping newbies as well, on a great variety of things, usually slightly more advanced than basic UI controls though. The UI element is there. It's not consuming developer time, it doesn't add significantly to the size of the download. It's not even enabled by default anymore. What's your beef with it? Who cares if only 10% or 49% of us actually find value in it... removing it helps no one and adversely affects those that rely on it. "You and Jopsy using the minimap is a geeky and even oldbie affectation, and a guy thing, too I might add." -- Prokofy Thanks again for marginalizing us with utterly pointless labels. How would you feel if I started shouting down the things you like about SL on the grounds that you're a "(cutesy derogatory adjective) with (delusions based on your age) and, after all just a (dismissive gender reference)... therefore anything you want is stupid selfish and pointless" ?
  22. " it's a trivial matter for them to require that people chose one account per unique IP address (not even unique payment form) and help control this" -- Prokofy Which treats most residents from IBM and students from various universities as a fraction of their total numbers because they're behind firewalls that make them look like they're all coming from the same IP. It does not stop people from offering incentives to their communities to go and comment or vote on issues they would otherwise not care about. And it certainly does not help reason prevail over irrationality. "Populism", frankly, gives us things the likes of which would be inappropriate for me to dredge up in this venue... but you don't have to look far to see people being misled into political action to further an agenda that helps corporations advance their exploitation. " so they *can* invoke it to undermine democracy." -- Prokofy What democracy? The governance of SL is a non-democratic republic.
  23. "And that is to pretend that democratic voting will be "gamed" or "lobbied by special interests" and "can't work"" -- Prokofy Welcome to the internet, since you seem new here... allow me to point out the lengths to which people will go to 'game' online voting systems http://blogs.alternet.org/oleoleolson/2010/08/05/massive-censorship-of-digg-uncovered/ Anywhere anyone stands to gain by creating a few extra alt accounts... or a group of people band together to 'get the word out' poll results go haywire. Conservative vs. Liberal polls get "slashdotted" by communities of a particular interest and often missed entirely by people that feel otherwise. Since there is no true identity accountability in SL, what do you propose? Only PREMIUM members get to vote on issues? How is it fair for such a negligible minority of residents dictate how things are run? Like it or not this is a non-democratic republic, reliant on LL to represent our interests during their internal decision making process. You should know by now that the 'voting' mechanism in JIRA is not about whether something should be implemented or not... it's whether something is popular enough to merit being REVIEWED by LL.
  24. "No, there's no sizeable population that "needs" double-click to move on the ground or "teleport". -- Prokofy There is no sizable population that "needs" Second Life either, and by extension nothing in it. We WANT Second Life. We WANT it to behave in ways that are familiar to us. This style of movement is very common among certain MMO's, mostly those created by Korean shops like NCsoft (Aion, Guildwars, etc) ... (though they've usually learned to make it optional for their American subscribers). Blue Mars uses it too. I, personally, don't like click-to-move navigation... but feel that SL would be more welcoming to residents if they had the option to use it. It certainly was a very popular feature among the numerous emerald users. When someone speaks, and you don't know where they are... the mini-map is invauable for finding out where they are around you, and whether they're above or below you. This is particularly necessary inside buildings and for people whose camera mastery isn't strong enough to go scanning through walls around them. I'm sorry you find it a useless part of the viewer.... but kindly stop painting it as something that can be removed and replaced by bulky in-world scripted large multi-purpose, lag-generating, teleport-delaying, region-crossing-affecting scripted attachments.
  25. "I didn't post about double-clicks so we can talk about it here. I posted it as an example. Let's not dilute this thread any further :-)" -- Pentasis Considering how utterly ineffective asking people to stay on topic is in these blogs... one could say that posts asking not to dilute the thread ... also dilute the thread. ;-) ;-) The point is... whether LL will embrace adding options... or stick to a "We know best, you get what we give you." model of viewer that forces us to adapt or resort to TPV's. Double-click-move or double-click-teleport is a perfect example of the kind of feature that if implemented MUST be made "optional" because many people want it... and many people DON'T want it. It's relatively trivial to implement, but the sticking point relevant to this debate... "Does the viewer need yet another option that requires LL to forever support both click-to-tp and no-click-to-tp?" And whether or not adding simple optional features like this makes viewer development too costly in terms of development, testing, etc.
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