[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

On 3/21/2024 at 12:19 PM, Craig Warrhol said:

I believe EA had to make significant changes when people started making adult mods for the sims. Maybe SL can learn from them.

EA has done nothing to block adult mods or content. The Sims has a very robust adult side. On the other hand, The Sims Online was a disaster for them ultimately because of sexual behavior in a game that did not even have any adult content.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

Just now, Dorientje Woller said:

And at the end of the line, one question remains and hasn't been answered: Do we, as users, have to suffer from the misdeeds of those who have been accussed in that blogpost?

That is the million dollar question, and I fear yes, we all will suffer under new restrictions, and some communities in particular will be even more affected.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

13 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said:

Adult content became the saving grace and a foundation of SL, yes.

However, what a few have done with certain behaviors and content over the years is still the problem that needs to be taken care of.

Yes, but you framed it as "adult content is a problem". No, it is not.  Adults do adult things, and SL allows a level of freedom most environments do not. Of course, there are some people doing things they should not be, and that needs to be addressed, not adult content in general.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

2 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

That's a hard ask, condiering the majority judges everyone all the time by how they look.

You can't be too big, can't be too small, can't be too cute, too chubby, too fluffy, too furry, too new, too old, You can't do certain things. A lot of people, but it has been getting better, usually think a new person is a bot or a scammer. 

People are too busy trying to tell you what to do, run your second life, say what they don't like, how you should look to them and want to be the boss at all times. It's suppose to be your second life but it's everyone elses and people say "don't listen to other people and be who you are" but the truth is is that it affects a lot of people when most are doing that out of spite and or harm.

That is some of the reason why we are down to 20k to 60k users.

In the end, SL is just an extension of first life, where people do the exact same thing. In a visual space, people are going to always react to how someone presents themself, fairly or not. In RL, a lot of effort is extended trying to stop other people from doing what you don't like. Trans people and drag queens are the latest boogeyman(person?), but it repeats over and over and over. Human nature can be rather inhumane. 

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

1 minute ago, Extrude Ragu said:

inb4 they go full meta and delete our legs

Those meta avs are nightmare fuel in VR lol.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

Just now, CaitlinParker said:

I can say the same thing with the Black Market stuff IMVU had years ago.

Somewhere in my inventory in IMVU I have an adult-ish pool table made by the illustrious Anshe.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

3 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Yeah, a lot of games that have adult content are very popular. Even games you think have none have it,

FFXIV protects its RPers especially ERPs, so does GTA V, so does WoW.

Every environment has adult content if you have adults. I remember being in There.com prior to SL, and the things people did with chairs and a squat animation would make you blush lol.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

10 minutes ago, CaitlinParker said:

Adult content will always be a problem in SL.

Adult content is not a problem. Permitting certain behaviors and content is. Adult content is a foundation of SL.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

16 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It seems to me that choosing to be, as you put it, "Puritanical" is a legitimate (used as an ADJECTIVE!) choice, just as being more sexually permissive is.

We tend to be of the view in SL that people, and landowners in particular (because Adam Smith or something) should have a pretty absolute right to determine what is allowed on their own land -- and that surely must apply to Puritans as well? I wouldn't want to go to such places, and I'm wary about their ideological attitudes, for reasons noted above -- but they should have the right to be as closed-minded as they want.

They do,  but it does not mean I don't enjoy taking the piss out of someone who clutches their pearls over language and sexuality either.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

1 minute ago, Anna Salyx said:

That would be incorrect.  The specific command is llGetAttachedList and the documentation specifically states that "By design HUD attachment keys are not reported by this function."  I have confidence in this as fact because all script code is handled on the server side and none is handled by the viewer. When a script requests an avatars attachments , the generated list is given to the calling script to process (still server side) and any output that is returned, either to an external server or back to the users viewer itself via the various messaging options, has already been filtered by the server software. HUD specific attachments are never exposed to the world in any passive way, to the point that I cannot even get a list of my own HUDS via this command (and I sometimes really wish I could).

It is filtered by that LSL function. It does not mean it is entirely filtered in the data sent to the client. Third party viewers do have capabilities not supported specifically by LSL functions (example, the posing tool in Black Dragon that allows manipulation of the avatar). Some are entirely client side, but that does not mean the data is not somehow accessible to the viewer code.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

Just now, Lyndka Cochrane said:

Sadly there are venues out there that are very.... "Puritanical"

LOL there is a certain very popular music venue that is that way. I revel in getting the DJs to play songs with swear words in them.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

Just now, Lyndka Cochrane said:

Didn't "The Police  blotter" in SL used to do this? Not really sure why they gave it up - it wasn't perfect but there was some indication that governance was happening and in a timely way.

Unrelated to SL, but  my grandmother freaking loved the police blotter the Miami Herald used to have. She always knew what the hell was going on everywhere.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

Just now, Lyndka Cochrane said:

If we're not careful - we're in serious danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because a Sim is rated Adult - doesn't mean that it's hosting anything more than folks dancing, chatting & taking the rise out of each other using language that G & M sims tend to ban people for.

You can be banned for language in an M sim? Uh oh, I have a filthy mouth and all of my land is M lol.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

4 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

5'5" is not short, it's Average American height, doesn't matter if it's Second Life. The height thing shouldn't be a thing.

It is short in SL when everyone is 7 feet because of scaling issues. I agree that height should not be a determining factor.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

5 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Example, Virtual Secrets called [somebody] a pedophile because she has a cute look, she is an Asian Avatar, but in a reborn body

Virtual Secrets is a cesspool. Hiding behind anonymity brings out the worst *****ing behavior in people, and in SL we already have one layer of anonymity. Adding even another to allow people to say anything without any fear of reprisal is scummy behavior. That site needs to die in a fire.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

8 hours ago, Rathgrith027 said:

I would say in general they are:

* Content Creation
* Roleplay
* Exploration - Be it internal or external
* Sexual Activity & Romance
* Education
* Community

Six pillars, if you will. Shopping is a part of Content Creation, vanity can be consider self-exploration. Community is more the reality that SL much like social media, is host to various subcommunities that co-exist with one another. They are all equally important and if one falters, the others will follow inevitably.

Distilled down to its simplest terms, for a large amount of users, they want to shop, have pretty Barbie dolls to play with, and pixel bump. It really is not more high brow than that.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

17 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

The article that sponsored all of this did indeed focus almost entirely on LL and its employees. In that sense, I'll agree that a response that primarily -- or at least most visibly -- produces new restrictions on ordinary residents would seem to be missing the point (at best) or deliberate misdirection (at worst). That said, they probably feel they need to do something visible in response to this.

I guess my question to you and @Coffee Pancake is -- do you believe that a*eplay is not a problem, more generally, in-world? And that therefore no action in-world (as opposed to institutionally) are required? Or maybe that it is a problem but current approaches are sufficient?

There is absolutely no doubt in my own mind that a*eplay is a thing, although I remain of the view that the vast majority of it is not even employing child avatars. What I don't really know is what can be done about it structurally, in terms of changes to the ToS, etc.

Would you be opposed to a crackdown, represented by a more vigorous enforcement of existing rules? I ask this quite genuinely: I really don't know how best to proceed here. (And I suspect, as I've said above, that even if LL does nothing, there will be a "chilling" effect in-world coming from residents anyway.)

Oh of course it is an issue, it has been in SL since the beginning, as it was in The Sims Online before it (child brothels) and in other environments as well (VRChat *shudder*). There are certainly things that can and need to be done to address it more broadly. I don't know exactly what that looks like from a user perspective.

There are tools in place for us as users to report such things, but anecdotally you hear that often times nothing is done. Also, since SL is ephemeral, unless there is verifiable evidence, it is hard to take any action. It doesn't mean there are not ways for them to do so, it just becomes much more difficult where one can shape shift in and instant and chat can happen on voice or externally. There is also the quite real possibility of false accusations as well to damage someone. Still here, smoke, fire, etc.

This particular tempest in a teacup is not the first, nor the last - but it is uniquely targeted in a way previous cases have not been. On Twitter, Daniel Voyager asked what the theme of SL21B should be. My answer was cleaning house.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

4 minutes ago, Sparkle Bunny said:

Sex-related HUD systems will broadcast to others in the vicinity wearing the same HUD that you are wearing it. They couldn't really operate otherwise. They may also involve other avatar attachments which would be visible in area search and by 'what is she wearing' scripts.

(This isn't to say that I didn't find the screenshots hinky, but on the other hand I haven't used every viewer out there, nor have I ever had God powers, so it's impossible for me to be certain that they're fake.)

 

I recall reading in one of the discussions on my site or reddit that the server sends all attachment information, but the viewers specifically filter out huds. Considering that there are dodgy third party viewers out there, it is quite probable that there is one that can display all that a user has attached.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

2 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

Oh probably. But OED says its first use is 1494, and I'm just an old fashioned girl! 😀

Nerd

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

9 minutes ago, Starberry Passion said:

Because the playerbase simply like to discriminate, that's the reason.

People find a reason to hate another and blame them for something they never did, when something negative pops up.

Twitter is full of stuff like this. "A black man did this" then you see in comments talking crap about every black person. "A white man did this." Then everyone is talking crap about the white man and how all white man are this and that.

It's mob mentality and it does more harm than good.

Oh believe me, I am well aware of how SL mobs operate. All the crazy of RL mobs combined with the special online anonymous brand of crazy  that lets people act even worse with impunity. Every time this comes up, child avatars all get painted with the same broad brush. It affects me not one iota, but it does not mean I think those using child avs for harmless reasons should be lumped in with pedophiles and restricted all the same.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

5 minutes ago, Scylla Rhiadra said:

It is! And so too is "legitimate," employed as a verb.

Yes, it is - though it sounds awkward compared to legitimize.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

1 hour ago, Modulated said:

But what about the inappropriate content that DOES exist? Should nothing be done about it?

Of course not, but there are policies in place to deal with that. Again, it is an LL problem of enforcement. What was so troubling about the allegations, among many things, was the appearance of tacit approval of the behavior or at best indifference to it, fueled by things like favoritism and people being untouchable. That is why I think they need to address their internal issues and find ways to enforce their current guidelines. This is not a new thing by any means, it is just the latest - though this time around, it very much is focused on the house of Linden.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

2 minutes ago, Love Zhaoying said:

 common sense (whatever that is)..

 

One of the most misnamed things around - common sense is in rare supply.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

7 hours ago, Coffee Pancake said:

All of this.

I've been biting my tongue and I'm about done.

It has been an ugly and consuming (almost) full time job for our mod team. There have been bans. We have been threatened, accused of being specific senior Linden staff and directly compared to Maxine Ghislaine. We're still getting flack for individuals and a corporation that chose to go dark and cease all communication, on all platforms, for weeks.

The majority of people attempting to post the initial medium article were not regulars from our community, neither are many of those having a mud slinging contest in the responses to Brad's statement (that as an official announcement we have had to allow).

This whole mess, from whatever side you chose to look at it, was not a product of the regular SL community (embroiled in such meaty topics as how do I find this hair, do you like my avatar and where to find company & connection), neither are those most vocal about banning people and punishing specific social groups in SL.

The entire thrust of the article was Linden's own dirty laundry. Not ours. The damage has been done and it hardly matters if there is validity to the claims. Yes, there are SL issues to resolve, there has always been issues, but to take an axe to the community over this is absolutely not the right course of action.

I will be deeply upset if this results in a crack down, removal, limitation (explicit or implicit) of child avatars (or those who might be swept up in such a change), the overwhelming majority of whom (and their friends and virtual families) have done nothing wrong. Even simplistically locking them to G rated regions makes the majority of SL activities impossible, G & M regions form a patchwork all over the mainland, it would be impossible to drive or sail.

Governance needs to change its approach. They have one tool and it's an orbital nuke, applied in response to one specific accusation OR failing to pay the bill on time.

If the way this whole adventure has been handled is any indication, I beg to disagree.

They likely don't even realize that the scale of the problem this issue has raised, is almost entirely of their own making.

The correct policy terms should be "Using SL to make CSAM isn't allowed. Have one free orbital nuke. Goodbye.". Instead we have the nebulous ******** term, that not only differs considerably from its real world usage, it's been so poorly defined that it acts as a social dragnet encompassing both adult and non adult activities and appearances. Something Virtual Secret managed to illustrate with staggering consistency for 800 weeks straight.

I am glad you spoke up. You have had it so much worse on Reddit than I did, in part because Reddit, but also because people are idiots. I agree with all that you have said. I don't envy what you went through and continue to go through.

Why should the user base be restricted further when this entire mess is about alleged internal behavior. They need to get their own *****ing house in order, full stop.

[Official Statement from Oberwolf Linden]

As the owner of an SL forum site, when the blog post originally appeared, I moved quickly to remove links to it from both my site and Discord server. I know the admins of /r/secondlife were dealing with it as well on an even larger scale. I ended up removing about 5 threads linking to the blog post. I made the decision for the protection of my site, and to avoid any issues stemming from even linking to the allegations. I did read the blog post and it did make some damning allegations, but did little to actually establish their validity.The  pseudonym anonymity and reference to The Count Of Monte Cristo in the user name, along with vague justifications for not going directly to authorities with this stuff made me  question the veracity of any of it, and read more like a hit piece than anything.

It stayed up for more than a week with a warning on it that it was being investigated for potential violations of the terms of service of Medium.com, and then it ultimately disappeared. It was pretty widely disseminated before that. People who don't pay much attention to what goes on in SL were asking me if I had heard about it, which tells you how far it spread.

I appreciate the difficult position LL is in, and that they did finally make more off a statement than I expected. This statement has some issues that are concerning. Depending on how you parse the words, the statement about some of the allegations being unfounded can reasonably lead one to assume some of them do have merit. Some allegations have predated all of this by years.

I fear there will ultimately be a knee jerk reaction to appear that they are doing something, and that will result in new restrictions for all users, and that specific communities that have nothing to do with the alleged behavior will be affected as well. I know they have never known quite what to do with the adult side of SL, but it is a driving force in both the economy and user base in SL, and any new restrictions that would harm that are worrying.