Luna Bliss

I thinkt here's a decimal point missing there. You did mean 9.9% , right? I've often wondered just how many residents of SL are creators now....this is so important to the discussion. What's your guesstimate?

I'm glad you explained your position in greater detail -- living on the edge as an artist. I feel the lack of awareness of how creative freelancers must live in this society is the source of so much of the criticism levied against us here. Like you said, we must live on the edge if we want to continue to do what we love -- for most there is no secure financial plan as is with many other types of businesses, as very few are able to actually make a good living. And as you know, many people in society believe creatives should give to society for free -- as if we can live on air. Anyway, as you could tell, I was very upset that someone was arrogantly insisting that your business was already failing if you couldn't absorb the most recent 2.5% cashout fee increase. Likewise, people have applied RL business circumstances to the very different financial realities of a SL business in an attempt to tell them they were doing something wrong or should not be feeling upset about the cashout fee increase. It's just bizarre to me that all these people think they know everything about our circumstances. I mean even though I'm deeply involved here with a business as a content creator I wouldn't presume to know the details of how a musician funds their work here, or even another content creator really. Each business is unique, in both how they fund their enterprise in SL and their circumstances in RL. Regarding whether this was trollish behavior on the part of the person who was butting into your space by accusing you of having a failed business, I'm not so sure being a "knocker" was the issue. I think he's jealous of creatives and wants to tear them down, but then maybe that is always a primary issue with all trollish behaviour where people delight in tearing down others via taking up contrary positions -- they've failed in their own endeavors and so enjoy trying to make others feel they have also failed? Perhaps a factor is how he's been treated by other creators, in the way that you were treated as somehow 'less than' or not part of the group anymore when you stopped creating content and began contributing as a musician instead. I've certainly met my share of snobby creators. The tribalism of humankind can be annoying, the way there is such a penchant for making unnecessary divisions in the attempt to win and feel better than someone else. Anyway, this thread should be a space for all businesses to express how the fee increases will affect them. It should not be about demonizing one side or the other. The reality is that even SL does not know if the increase will be a good change for SL overall. And even if it does end up being a positive change for SL overall this does not negate the fact that for some individual people it will be a disaster that causes them to give up on a dream.

I don't see anybody saying that, but.... Somebody else could have said what you just said. Your words are replaceable. I just wanted to let you know.

This weekend I watched the oppressed women of Handmaid's Tale begin a revolution against the evil men of Gilead (remembering the wicked smile of the main character as she dreamed of causing trouble). Then I watched the lesbian woman in Gentleman Jack overpower the bad business men trying to trick her in 19th century England. And then, I topped it off with the mothers in Big Little Lies who got rid of the bad man of Monterey by throwing him on a sharp spike! lol

I'm envisioning my brother flying with you as you take a mad dive toward the ground! I do indeed feel some kind of sick pleasure just at the thought! The funniest part of my story, that I failed to mention, is that my brother who thought women are too emotional and so should not be pilots actually ended up marrying a woman who is a commercial pilot!

That's good for you, but you do not represent all women. I too, can't say I personally experience oppression as a woman. But I look to others experience -- I research and pay attention to those citing domination by men. One of my majors was actually Women's Studies in college and I consider myself a pussyhat wearing feminist, though not hating men at all (as you stereotyped feminists). While women are currently less oppressed in Western societies, throughout the world women still encounter severe control by men in various societies. Even in the U.S. most women still make less than men for the same amount of work, more women are killed by men than the opposite, and the best phrase one can come up with when insulting a man is to say he's "like a woman". Witness the abortion issue -- men trying to control women's bodies. Even my own brother, who said he would not fly with a woman pilot because women are too "emotional" and it would not be safe. I could provide so many more examples -- the misogyny hasn't disappeared -- this attitude that women are less than men and the prejudice that follows. The man who would be king has not gone away. He may be able to get away with less now, but he's still there.

shows your, and many others short sighted view again. Its only about your club There are so many more people who cash out. Its this what makes this discussion impossible time after time. hosts, dj's, live performers, traders, commisionairs, resellers, adult workers, advisors, decorators, ... and many more You think you're a master derailer but you are not. I have frequently said "merchants and service providers" in the discussion. And just because Rya did not include service providers in his comment does not verify he is leaving them out. Your logic needs work. And, stop trying to divide people. Merchants and all those who provide services are in this together.

Do we really need to have the 'straight pride' and 'white pride' that is manifesting in society? No, because whites and straight people have typically not been oppressed by blacks and gays. While I might personally take care not to stereotype men, I do understand that it is far, far worse to stereotype a segment of society that has been oppressed -- women have been oppressed throughout the ages, denigrated and treated as property. All types of stereotypes have been thrust upon them -- this is a means of control -- the way the powerful control the weaker. We need to take care not to perpetuate these stereotypes.

I'm saying you're not in a position to judge him.

What's your position Fox? I think if anyone cares to know why you enjoy berating creators & musicians (what you like to call "getting real" or something) it's easy to scroll up and find out. My suggestion is to go work on your mesh skills.

Fox, you really need to....cease and desist. You aren't in a position to determine Da5id's business plan, telling him whether or not his business is on the edge of failing.

Da5id, I think most of those on the forum who are effectively saying "shut up and stop complaining, SL has a business to run" simply don't understand how many hours a person such as yourself puts in to SL to make it a more enjoyable place. They see it from their own personal perspective of someone who just comes here to play, and it's of no consequence to them to just add a couple more dollars into the game. No doubt if they worked hard in SL they would appreciate a merchant or musicians perspective more! I really like how Blueberry responded on the forum. She was speaking to Grumpity, saying she was okay with the cashout fee increase but pointed out that for someone earning $1000 that $50 cashout fee (5%) amounts to a bill that needs to be paid. I like how Grumpity put things too, saying it's a "bitter" pill, showing she has some sympathy for those who will incur a loss with these changes. I totally agree, we have a perspective that needs to be listened to, most especially on LL's official communication channel. It does NOT mean we are demonizing SL -- we mainly just want to be heard, to have our opinion considered. Even LL is not sure how these changes will effect SL, and so they need to listen to the residents regarding how changes are personally affecting them, because SL would be a poorer place, and perhaps even decline, without residents who put in vast amounts of time and effort. Care needs to be taken so as not to drive those residents away.

The armchair psychologist should not speaketh

I'm not looking down on anyone, nor do I think I'm on some kind of "throne as savior and ruler of SL. Alyona was putting down the creator rather viciously -- attempting to diminish them and not being sensitive to their concerns -- and so I was pointing out that we indeed have value and concerns that need to be listened to. It is you who is making some kind of warring division between creator vs customer whereas I see them as equal in importance. I value my customers and greatly appreciate their business, and I value LL as a company that has given me the opportunity to develop as a creator and earn money too. What is really strange, is that you've placed me in a category I am not in your attempt to 'battle against me' -- I'm not skilled with mesh, and in fact I struggle with learning it daily. Truth be known, I wish SL had never implemented mesh. I do understand your frustration with not being able to become proficient with mesh -- I was almost one of them and considered giving up. I think if you want to battle against the so-called "mesh snobs" you need to pick another person.

Your analysis does not hold because you're comparing apples & oranges. SL is not a typical game like WOW where the primary activity is gunning people down and USG (user generated content) is minimal. SL was founded on the creativity of its users and this distinguishes it from many other games -- this means that SL is dependent on keeping this creator population happy too if they want them to stay & continue to enhance SL. People who are here only for relaxation and play are of course extremely important for SL's success, but we can't diminish the importance of the creator community. I don't see any evidence that you respect the creator community due to your comments that diminish their concerns and belittle their accomplishments with all your 'pixel talk', along with your unfounded estimation of how much monetary compensation they should be willing to receive for their effort when you don't know what creating in SL entails. Yeah, it's pixels and doesn't have solidity like the real world, but it is a form of art and requires the creativity & effort all art does -- it requires years of training if one does it well. You may enjoy keeping things light and laughing at yourself and others, but it's insensitive to belittle and diminish the very real concerns of others as you've done with this post. Speaking of "looking a gift horse in the mouth", I believe that's what you are actually doing. You're not appreciating the creator content which makes your SL so much fun, or the concerns they may have that determine whether they can keep it all coming to you, but instead expect it to be given to you at very little or no cost.

I don't know about your math there, but I thought I made it clear -- I'm not so concerned about this recent doubling of cashout fees all on its own in isolation -- two and a half percent doesn't come out to much per month. What I am concerned about is how this cashout fee continues to rise every year -- there is a pattern, and there has been talk of it going to 30% "like other games charge". We need to make the distinction that SL is NOT like other games, and that because of this I don't think high cashout cuts are in SL's best interest as it could very well diminish the creator community too much. Of course I'm worried about my own, personal situation and lament at times about those who may need to stop working in SL and find another less-creative job. Of course I can see and empathize with my situation better because I live it, and I can more easily champion its cause. But I am making a very earnest attempt to see the big picture -- the big picture being SL's continued survival. Once again, I believe (at this time) that it's the diminishing of those who need SL to cover their SL expenses and cash out $100 to $300 per month through their creative effort to be the largest percentage of people in SL, and so the ones we need to take care with when reducing their ability to accomplish this. And I don't see how a reduced price for land expenses will help them if they don't own land -- I would need to be convinced that most of them do indeed own land to believe this. If someone is earning $300 per month and starts getting a 30% cut they would have to own a hell of a lot of land for that monthly $100 reduction to benefit them via less-expensive land costs.

Me too, that's why I went back to my rl job and only do SL as a hobby now. So now I take months to make one item instead of busting a gut to bring new items out fast. But then, SL would NOT survive without its slaves. lol Rya This exchange between you and Beth brings up the heart of the matter, I think, regarding the disconnect between those who attempt to work to create content vs those who think creators don't deserve much compensation for it. The non-creators (on this forum) really don't understand how hard it is to be a merchant. While parts of it are indeed fun, of course, it is hard work! They seem to think we're just playing around, riding in boats or cars, chatting with friends, or whatever -- and raking in the dough as we play!

I don't see the main issue as whether creators like it, but whether or not the changes actually contribute to the viability of SL going forward. Even SL does not know the answer to this, and is why they're proceeding carefully as they make changes.

It would only be disingenuous if I were making an attempt to be insincere via leaving out pertinent information crucial to the opposite side of the argument (your apparent belief that the reduced price of land will benefit merchants or at the very least it will be a wash). The problem is I don't believe the new ratio with land prices reduced will benefit MOST merchants; many merchants don't own land (many MP stores have no link to an inworld store), and many who do own land fund it via Premium memberships (and the price of Premiums are going up, not down). Plus, so many residents who provide various services in SL (like musicians, for example) don't even need land, so the increasing cashout cuts only causes their income to continue to drop as they are not benefitting from a drop in land prices if they don't own land. I'm kind of among them (more like a service provider) as most of my income is received via custom designs on others property, and the majority of additional income comes from MP sales (so no land needed in these cases) -- very few sales come from my inworld store. I am glad that at least some merchants will benefit by paying less for land though. The fact that SL appears to be proceeding with caution via making changes slowly says to me that even they don't know what effect these changes will have (Ebbe said something to that effect...testing the waters gradually as they attempt to rebalance where they get their income ). It's reassuring they are proceeding slowly, although I know some don't feel a doubling of cashout fees is slow at all. *I'm thinking of middle-class in SL as those making $600 to $1200 or thereabouts for full-time (over more than full-time) work, poverty level in RL but representing a living wage & doable in some areas of the country, and it's these I've been seeing disappear from SL for some time - the 'hollowing out' of the middle-class I mentioned. It's easy to see that increasing cashout cuts hurt that segment of SL financially as the cashout fees will reduce their income more since they are cashing out more (*note -- they're typically working full time to earn this money while those just covering SL expenses are not). But what I'm more concerned about in terms of SL's survival, is that increasing cashout fees will diminish the segment of SL who might be more important for SL's continued existence because they are greater in number -- those hard-working merchants who are covering their SL expenses and also depending on $100 - $300 extra each month to pay a few RL bills. Once again, if they don't own land these new changes won't benefit them, plus if they do actually cash out money and incur the new cashout fee they will be seeing their profits decrease as the cashout fees increase. Anyway, I'm not saying this new equation (more income from cashouts via land sales for SL) is not a good plan for the overall success of SL going into the future -- I simply don't know. One important fact to consider (for those who keep pointing to the fact that we should not complain because other games take 30%), the problem with thinking about SL in this way is that there's no recognition that SL and other games are not the same -- SL was founded on UGC (user generated content) as a focus and there is a large creator community -- remove the incentives for residents to participate in a way they perceive as fair and a disaster could ensue. Difficulties lie ahead for merchants, most importantly as the cashout fees continue to increase -- I hope merchants who need to leave will not cause SL numbers to decrease further if they aren't able to 'pay their way with a little extra cash on top' anymore through SL income. I also hope it won't cause a loss of quality content for residents to enjoy -- because, as you know, creating is hard work, and selling can be even more difficult -- my guess is that many would leave if not compensated adequately, whatever that compensation might be for each individual merchant.

I think I need more coffee before I catch up on this thread

Beth, I'm big on self-actualization and taking responsibility for one's self. And I'm sure people can always do better to fix their store to weather the cashout fee increase, and that some eventually will if possible. But there are limits you know. (maybe I should copypaste your silly 'bootstrap' speech here). It's insulting for you to tell creators they are wallowing and not doing anything to remedy the situation when there's no way you can know that's the case.

LittleMe, you have said that you don't care if the content in SL is stolen from 3D websites, and that if you see something you want you just buy it. Are you still feeling that way? If so, why do you think it's both okay, and good for the SL economy?

Let's get back on track here. What effect does anybody think these price increases will have for various populations in SL? Will it have a ripple effect and actually decrease the population instead of making SL viable into the future? I can sure see why LL is making the changes slowly...

Well, it could be about the way they see SL becoming, and so have to cater to this to make money. I wish I could see all of SL and know the reality, but I'm not sure anyone knows, not even them. Anyway, I just hope it remains a place for creators and musicians too...and those new creators having fun learning about art, developing a business, and earning a little cash...I remember those days..

I never said LL owes anyone an income. I disagree with your characterization of LL as only a business to make money -- that's really an insult to them. Everyone, when they sell something, is in business to both make money AND please their customer. I may create for myself, but the minute I stick a price tag on my creation I am thinking of how I can help make a residents life here more enjoyable, and I adjust my product accordingly. That's the problem with the Western world these days, we think business should be only about making money. It's why the whole world is going down in the not too distant future, if you read the stats on what's happening with climate change and economic collapse. If enough people need to fund their existence in SL via making some cash then LL should cater to them.