Macrocosm Draegonne

No, it would be 4x4 which equals 16. You're counting all sides? I was just thinking as far as texture space, only four eight 1024's would fit in that area right? lmfao nevermind, my coffee is kicking in now! ?

I am going to reuse textures and normals as much as possible, to try and eeek out every bit of optimizing I can hehe. Yeah it would be interesting tho! An atlas if ever allowed in SL would be best limited to particular things, perhaps usable by Estate/SIM owner only. Could make a few categories like terrain/flora/structures, or simply limit the quantity of them per sim or whatever limits seem smart. I figured it would need an abstraction to for instance be able to tile a square image out of a larger image those. But I suppose the mipmaping and such make atlases unnecessary, the trouble is the 1024 size limit severely punishes large objects as they end up having a ton of textures or end up a blurry mess. I am going to use tiling textures as much as I can, and layers, to try and combat the issue.

16? Wouldn't that be four? Yes im a noob if it werent already apparent lol Yes, I was just reading up on that, very cool system, perhaps that is what will play a role in the new cache system they've hinted at for better performance? I have to believe that bigger textures are coming some day, tech is not stationary, it evolves, compression becomes better, io gets improved, LOD and mipmapping can make sure the load is handled well. 1024 is an old limit from a world that no longer exists, eventually that limit will fall like any other. This is hypothetical of course lol. I have to have optimism, otherwise the future seems boring.

Yes I agree, but in this case its still only loading the images that will load anyway, the only difference is they're in one file, when it makes sense, atlas has to be somewhat better right performing right? I was thinking more for texture sets which will be everywhere in a sim, the ground textures, or building sets, things an atlas does well. I still think we will have larger textures eventually, if what you're saying is true, and what others are saying, the full rez texture hardly every loads for anyone, unless they're zoomed way in, or at least that is the goal of some tweaks coming right?

I really hope what I've seen suggested is true about texture dimensions being increased, creating a large atlas with relevant textures would make a more "instant-rez" feeling since a great many more objects will come into view once those textures load. I am going to do this anyway (as much as is workable) even with the 1024x2 limit, but when that can be 4096 x 8192, or other variations, etc, things will both be less expensive on the draw calls and rendering, and feel better to the user as more comes into view in logical amounts. Not to mention the greater level of detail can be provided in the case someone is up close. And, a whole lot less files being served from the server too, though about the same file size generally speaking. Also, while we're at it, why not a new compression mechanism that both encrypts everything and reduces file size by 85%?? ?

I had noticed a few more sometimes but double seems excessive, too many hard edges and seams?

Well, I dont know much about the mesh in other environments, other than Skyrim SE and Citites Skylines to a small degree, both have their own hacks and particularities lol SL is the first one im actually making some mesh for though, didnt get around to it much in the others yet. I had noticed mucking around with my Normals tweaked the li, this current thing is all set to smooth, though maybe not entirely. Hmm another few dozen uploads and ill have it down, its faster and better with each attempt lol.

Oh, is that why its adding some vertices on import? my lowest LOD was 12 tri's 20 verts, but in the uploader shows at 26, although the tri's did not go up, the .500 score is the Server number, Download is below 500. Im trying to be as efficient as I can manage and those extra verts were really worring me, like seriously, I looked for them... and now i know why I couldn't find them. lol ? I had an idea for its lowest lod that would be even lower tri, by making a small lowfi baked texture spot of the whole thing on the main diffuse to smear over the lod, its from very far away so it should be fine. But of course ill still have to hide those unused textures, so its only useful in some situations to reduce tri's in the lod, if all materials use the same diffuse there should be no trouble at all, but that is not always possible for every situation, especially when using tiling textures as I am in this current build.

Ok I think I get what you're saying, so dont hide them, put them right out front and make use of them somehow, thats a good idea to use sometimes! its only in the lowest LOD that I end up with these extra tri's, so I could dump the tri in one of the primary areas, if there be any good spots not culled when optimizing, and texture permitting. I still wish I could eek out those last tri's tho! or at least some of the verts, ive tried a bunch of tricks so far lol I have connected it to existing mesh to save on verts & edges, only one tri for each unused material, done end to end to form quads with two materials each quad, and keep them all at the same z, y and x coordinates proportionally.

Ok I finally figured out my confusion, its still disappointing how that page lost all its images. However, I was mixing up two things, it was a suggestion for making the flip side of plane visible using one extra tri, and it does contain another material slot if you want since it has a face and can be uv mapped on both sides. Works great, but the problem is it doesnt work on a tri, must be a plane so using it to hide unused texture slots wont gain any benefits. It is a cool trick for a visible other side though, in my testing the viewer still counted the additional two tri's for the flip side of the plane, but it only charged two extra vertices, thats half the verts for a visible other side, pretty neat in and of itself. I am still wondering what other ways we can further optimize the LOD objects, especially in regard to the unused texture slots that the uploader wants there anyway.

Not all mesh is created equally, or purposed for the same scenario, thus li will be different, also thats highly dependent on proper optimization. Sculpties are awful... Burn them all with fire, just be done with it! ??

Isnt there a second channel of the UV map? so you can do a second map layout, I seem to remember reading that in here somewhere, and someone made a video showing how to use it for SL too, so each set is in the same object but like two layers, she was using blender too. Thats an interesting dilemma, im sorry I cant be of any help.

I suppose my memory is a bit fuzzy on that old post, but I could have sworn there was a trick to make those remaining single tri's hidden in the LOD model (for a texture not used in the LOD of the mesh), wasn't there a way to be lighter on LI and further out of the way? I have uploaded the same asset dozens of times in beta grid, trying for the best li score and lod effect, im finally getting somewhat better, especially with the blender to SL workflows. This is the excellent post now missing all the images, I remember all the great examples people spent a lot of time giving good visuals. I looked in the wayback website and the forums are not cached, so I guess all thats gone?

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I think I figured it out, to collapse two of the three vertices to the same location gave me the result I wanted it seems. Edit: Nope that gave MAV_TOO_FEW_UNIQUE_VERTICES error, hmm. Well I guess I shouldnt complain, ive got this mesh down to half an li already.

I searched for quite a while, and found the old post eventually, but the pictures are all missing now lol, and those that discussed it were a bit vague on account of the excellent tutorial images, which I only partly remember. Im optimizing a mesh items lowest LOD, and I need to remove one more tri to be golden at 14 tri, of course that one tri is being used to hide a material area no longer visible at that distance. I know there was a way to do some *****ery and end up with two verts and one less tri. right? Does anyone remember the trick? I've tried a bunch of things to no avail yet. ?

Well that depends, if you're using Black Dragon, the scores are higher a touch, its not as lenient on the onion skined meshes, but yes, it seems there are less people these days overdoing it, and yes some of that classic stuff can be heavy, a prim for every part lol. We need an SL museum of "Rancid old SL-Fossils on system avis covered in flexi-prims, bling jewelery m and scripts-in-every-prim 2006 lagtech" but we should make them holograms so not to disturb the living lol. ?

lol, it doesnt bother me, I grew up around verbose people, I'm tempered. ?

Thats just silly, there are quite a few languages already in the mix, and each for specific reasons, that is and will always be the paradigm, I was simply reasserting a standing fact, and extending it to what people can do in-world, IF, and ONLY if, it was better to do so for optimizing and performance, eg. LESS complicated and better running. Its the best we got, several numbers can be used, are you suggesting someone with a score in the millions is somehow not effecting performance to themselves and others around them, compared to a median number around 150k or less? Why instaboot that seems harsh? Why not just give people a warning and 5 min to let them decomplex themselves to get better performance and enjoyment out of an experience that specifically requires such things? This is all related to only those things which would require the utmost performance, not someones house parcel, or a simple shopping sim. Having a bunch of multi-million scoring avi's running around seems like an easy thing to mitigate for a nice benefit, that everyone would feel. Lowered tier and higher transaction fee's an excellent idea that came from Sansar. ...and most everyone loves it too. Also we've gotten some developers back from over there I hear. Im sure as time goes on there will be many mutually beneficial exchanges between the two. Great points on that bit, although Server Side Lag is not the only lag to mitigate, and I wasnt only speaking to that. Also why are you so angry? ...chill out and express yourself, people will hear more, not everyone is immune to such rhetoric like I am, and would probably just ignore everything you're saying, even though there is a lot of value in what you're explaining in various posts ive seen of yours. ?

Yeah, thats why in extreme need situations (gaming sim, event, etc) a pre-lobby or pre accept TP check would be best, I suppose the simplest way (using current stuff) would be a pre-entry landing zone on another sim lol, but really thats probably not needed if you just warn people usually they will remove some things and lower their complexity before they get booted, that benefits everyone in the SIM either way.

Many fine points made here I will try and keep in mind when scripting & dealing with land. I have noticed additional script lag in places too, and I wondered if something has changed making them more taxing, perhaps they're doing an internal logging and audit to more fully observe all the things? Adding a bunch of extra load would be expected if such a thing is ongoing. Perhaps there are LSL changes in the works. IMO it would be great to add some additional scripting languages to the mix, any that are better suited to particular aspects, especially in regard to their potential performance gains & optimization. On the Avatar TP thing, it may be that some are of such high complexity its a major strain? I have seen avatars scoring in the millions on complexity, even if they're jelly dolls that still must be a strain on the system. Perhaps a rule on max complexity to TP out of your property to another, like drunk driving rules ya know? ...so 2mill avatars aren't sim hopping lol. Would that even help? Ive seen the arguments about complexity score, but its the best we've got, and I will be installing drones to boot people who have too many scripts or too high complexity if im running a whole sim. The landing zone will sort the wheat from the chaff as best as I can configure. it'd be nice if this could be done as a pre-entry lobby or handshake somehow, but AFAICT they have to actually land before I can detect their complexity and script load & give them a warning. An avatar with millions complexity score is like a whole complex build with legs lol, some so high even a whole sim wouldn't have that many tri's at the ground level. XD Hopefully bakes on mesh is going to be a boon for lowering complexity. Edit: To the other points on Sansar vs SL, I think its great to diversify, but, lets be real, they're two really different things that are mutually beneficial, we've already gotten some goodies back from the Sansar side to the SL Mothership, its a symbiotic relationship, like Kombucha, 100% a good thing. ?

Perhaps he tried the firestorm physics upload before they got the 64bit havok stuff somewhat recently? I recall it wasn't there last year when I tried too, but it is now for sure I agree about the physics shape, often I disable physics on various mesh. Its great for decorations and such, so I can see why some creators might skimp on physics, knowing people will likely do just that, set to phantom and disable the physics, add it to a linkset which gets its own simpler invisible prim/mesh physics shape. Of course thats not always a viable solution. Its enlightening to turn on the physics Render data in the viewer, you can see exactly what Beq is getting at, theres a HUGE array of things all over the place, with varying levels of quality and attention to physics or any other such quality concerns, sometimes the physics is just jacked, and I imagine the more of that the more lag in an area created too.

Damn, seems like heart surgery to replace the physics engine lol, I suppose that will have to happen eventually if Havok goes away? Bonus is physics stuff being updated would be epic. We'd have more responsiveness and appeal while also decreasing server load?

Basically nobody wants to pay the license fees either right? Maybe MS will do something cool to enhance it, and make it cheaper. Is there some alternative that wouldn't break everything in SL to implement it? Edit: Bullet Physics is slightly similar and a lot more capable, in Skyrim SSE 64bit theres no havok 64bit without a crazy license fee, so the author of the most popular physics mod used bullet physics library to make a similar but better implementation of avatar physics. I believe bulletphysics is opensource and on github, not sure its of any use for SL in particular, but it is interesting and works really well.

Thats all very interesting talk of the cache, and its potential evolution. ? Larger textures means excellent texture atlases, and increased visual quality, if used well. Enhancing the LOD system would certainly make turning up draw distance more appealing and create a far more immersive POV. As I mentioned elsewhere it'd be nice for us to have occlusion planes and zones to build with too People will very quickly notice the improvements if the Cache and LOD systems come off well, it would be like a whole new world just as exciting as any of SL's greatest achievements, exploring the mainland would be a lot more fun and inviting too. Edit: I wanted to add something ive thought about quite a few times. Wouldn't it be nice if the viewer had some inbuilt textures? Or even procedural textures that could be mashed up and customized by the end user in their creations? This could relieve a lot of damn near exact textures from being overused, also there need be no server calls to get them. And, if there will be texture penalties coming, perhaps the least of which would apply to these.