Cabbage Acanthus

Second Life sex is not sex it is nasty talking at worse. Like the old phone sex of years gone by. About the Linden TOS, Linden Labs is only a company and not an governmant. About the safety of teens, adults are out there in the real world. Second Life is only one other means to contact them. All of this worry about sexual perverts is making yet another fracture in the community. Studies have shown the vast majority of such comes from family or close family members. A better solution would be more education of children about what is correct contact with an adult. It's not just sex one has to be concerned about. "Contributing to the delinquency of a minor" can apply to any encouragement or enticement (and a lot of places have a lot of leeway on this) to commit any illegal act (including truancy) or placing a minor in proximity to any criminal activity. This is a lot easier to do than one would think. (file sharing, music downloads, a discussion on how to get a show that isn't available in your country, any discussion of alcohol that does not sound like an afterschool special, etc.) A lot of the "normal" discussions between two adults could indeed qualify (like how to get a speeding ticket "fixed" for example) Yes, I think a lot of this is chicken-crap. But it's not my opinon that matters is it? While an outraged parent might not be able to press charges because someone said that God was a joke, or that college was overrated or that family planning methods aren't the Devil's work, or that (insert political affiliation here) is stupid that does not mean that the discussion prior to or following what really ticked them off couldn't be brought to bear. Unless someone is a teacher or some other professional well versed in communicating around teens and is fully prepared to act in that capacity on their own time in a leisure activity like SL then they might want to consider carefully whether or not they want to hang out with teens here.

I think the copybot situation will work itself out in relatively short order. The only reason that it got as bad as it did was that there was no consequences for it on the TG (Nice move LL). That will certainly not be the case on the MG. People do look for it and will bust people for it. Where it is going to really be a problem is with the content creators. I will be far less likey to buy something if I believe that it is going to disappear after one portion of it winds up being inappropriately obtained and incorporated. My advice to any of you guys is to make everything from scratch unless you know the source of any full perm bit in your toolbox.

...There are plenty of 13-15 year olds that contribute quite a bit, and I don't think it's a good decision to cut them off. I agree 13 to 15 year olds would have a lot to contribute. For me, it's about their safety. I would like for them, and the 16 to 19 year olds, to have an age appropriate world. Second Life is an adult world, an experiencial world. For me, it's morally wrong to let teens in. It is a disservice to them. There's way too much adult content for someone their age (and I don't mean just the sexual content). Teens can too easily pretend to be adults and access adult relationships with adults. It is beyond inappropriate to open SL to teens. My Second Life is ruined. Not sure what I'm going to do. I appreciate the discussion everyone. There are several emerging grids out there that are quite promising. Several of them have voiced a comittment to remaining 18+. None of them have the depth of content or are as big as SL, but if you are leaving anyway....

There are VERY FEW PG sims that do not share at least ONE border with a Mature sim, or have a mature sim less than one sim away. Adjust your draw distance, and you can see 2 sims away. Plenty of ADULT content on mature land. Just look around. I double checked just now. I was standing in a PG sim and could see everything going on in the neighboring mature sims and beyond that too. Which is why I think a lot of people are going to leave the mainland altogether. If I had not already abandoned my mainland parcels before, I sure as heck would now. It's going to get really interesting really quickly.

Today's TOS update has opened the door to the teens regardless of all of the childish tantrums being thrown by the "adults". I am sure the Lindens reading this blog had some lulz. I can understand why the merge is happening. The map is filled with empty sims that no one is buying and it makes sense to close up the smaller grid and fill up the empty spaces on the larger grid. I do not understand why there is so much panic and hysteria over the teens coming to the main grid. Keep the sex out of the PG sims and in the adult parcels like the TOS requires you to do. Then there is nothing to worry about. If the only way you think there could be trouble as a result of an interaction between a minor and an adult is "adult content" related, you might just be in for an unpleasant shock. I have tired of bringing up all of the other things that could go wrong and leave you to your fate. I would recommend looking into what constitutes "contributing to the delinquency of a minor" on your own. Doubtless you will laugh this off. Hopefully others won't. If the mainland is already full of empty land, what do you think is going to happen once people start leaving the M rated mainland parcels for good and head to estates, Zindra or just leave altogether. The teens couldn't keep 40 sims running. What do you think they are going to do for the entire mainland? Most adults that really support the teen merger have an angle. What's yours?

The difference between the main grid economy and teen grid economy is that the teen grid economy doesn't exist. Owning a sim is near impossible here without support from your parents and/or a part time job in real life. You have mass copybotting among other things to thank for that. One good thing for you guys is that the copybot problem will get knocked back hard. There is a fair amount of vigilance on that issue as we have covered before. It might open up some breathing room for teen content creators. It's hard to compete with stolen merchandise.

One of the nice things is that SL is scalable. If the TG was packed with paying customers, why did they not add a few sims? Oh, and I meant to ask. You mentioned that the economy on the TG was different from the MG. How so? And I hate to be the one to say it, but you just described the MG mainland where you are heading except that I guess you could buy a larger parcel if you wanted and felt like coughing up the tier.

So... What you are saying is that the teen community couldn't keep 40 sims going..... Yep. Certainly worth all the trouble....

Multiple Reasons. Teens are on the MG no matter what, seperating them doesnt change much. Theres no real reason to have a seprate Teen grid when there is PG(general) land on the Main grid. Im sure LL wants to expand and accept more users into SL (screaming about group chat and inventory here is BS LL have made tons of improvements to the server code and much more is planned, clearly they are fixing things) and allowing teens into the "Actual" SL is one way to do that. If you cant figure out why LL is doing this then just stop trying, please. "Multiple Reasons" does not answer my question. How is allowing a handful of teens who couldn't generate enough income to justify the TG going to help expansion? If there was a thriving teen community, there would still be a TG.

The implication that someone who indulges in a little SL romance from time to time runs around with a strap on and propositions every single person that they meet is so off base as to be laughable. Either these people aren't on the MG much or they are so woefully undeveloped socially as to be worthy of pity. The vast majority of tier paying folk here aren't sexed up perverts. Since there are a lot fewer consequences to their actions in SL, they may be more likely to have a "hook up" than in RL but they aren't running around inappropriate areas with their stuff hanging out. If you think that is the norm then I suggest leaving the welcome areas and taking a walk through the real grid. There are a lot of people who have a sex bed in the residence that they pay rent or tier for but only use it with people that they are in a relationship with. As to why they do that in SL instead of RL, well you will just have to ask them. But you need to remember that they are the majority here and they built this world and they keep it running. Take away the reasons they have to pay all that tier and any illusions that the teens and the puritans can keep this place going on their own will be bitterly dashed. Cabbage, I'm confused, in the same paragraph you say that "The vast majority of tier paying folk here aren't sexed up perverts." and "But you need to remember that they are the majority here and they built this world and they keep it running." Which is it? I was making the distinction between someone who partakes of some adult content and SL sex and someone who is a sex mad freak that runs around propositioning everyone they meet. The majority that I was talking about were your adult residents that do upon occasion, usually with a limited number of partners (or one) that they know quite well, partake of the adult content available here in SL. Those people that do follow the TOS and pay their tier and made the content here and keep this place in business are the ones that I am talking about. I wouldn't call them sexed up perverts like many like to stereotype anyone who isn't just peeing themselves with joy at the thought of the teens showing up. I agree with the rest of your post. I think the teen population serves no real purpose (except as vanity or to keep them from going to the rapidly proliferating teen centered VR's out there) and as you said, they are just an encumbrance on a MG that is already stretched thin and showing signs of real distress.

Bawww. @anyone who thinks it is a neccasry move that was going to happen no matter what: Glad someone understands. Please, if you would, tell us exactly how this is a necessary move for LL? In fact, I would settle for you answering how this benefits LL or the established, paying residents of the MG one bit. We've been trying to figure out why the heck LL would do something this boneheaded for months. If you know how this is "necessary" please enlighten us.

Here's a rule of thumb, in Second Life, when you meet new people, act like you would in RL. Don't wander around the mall with a strap on, don't go up to strangers and say "wanna have sex?". Personally, I feel that if you follow basic rules of civility there's nothing to worry about. My thoughts on this exactly. If sex is the big evil keeping the teens from being able to use Second Life, then get rid of the fake sex. If you are adults then use some of your social skills(if you have any) to meet someone and go out on a real date.. This is a no brainer. That's an overly simplistic view of how things work around here. I certainly hope that you are just indulging in a little bit of rhetoric and aren't actually that naive. If you actually want the teens around, the last thing you want to do is try to set up a situation where the Lindens have to choose between adult content and the small number of teens that will actually be coming across. During the last big push to clean up, don't you think that if they could get rid of all adult content in SL and survive they would have? There are a whole lot of tier paying residents who like SL just the way it is, adult content and all. LL made a whole continent devoted to adult content. It is an integral part of the whole thing here. I think you misunderstand the situation a bit. The teen grid was no longer viable and LL had to can it. That means that the teens are not a financially self supporting population. If they were, the TG would still be around. That's the no brainer for you. That's all we know for sure. I think that it is more likely that LL is both trying to preserve possible future growth and the teen market share by trying to fold them into the MG, whose population is bringing in enough to keep the lights on. They are also offering the teens a way to legitimately enter the MG to possibly prevent a wholesale assault on a age verification system that is well.. sort of flaccid. How many alts does Elvis Presley have on the grid again? I think they are betting on the teens not making a big enough impact on the MG and that things will blow over once everything is a done deal. I'm not so sure that is going to happen. One thing I am sure of is that LL is a business and SL is run for profit. If it comes down to a choice between preserving a teen population that could not even support their own mini-grid and keeping enough of the paying adult population in place, I think that will be a no brainer also. All of you people who like to make the "Why don't they just get rid of SL sex?" or "the teens coming means that LL has decided to get rid of adult content" and all of the variations on this rather repressed sad little theme had better hope that it does not come down to an ultamatum style choice between will LL keep the teens or will they keep adult content. Well, not if you actually want the teens to stay around that is. The implication that someone who indulges in a little SL romance from time to time runs around with a strap on and propositions every single person that they meet is so off base as to be laughable. Either these people aren't on the MG much or they are so woefully undeveloped socially as to be worthy of pity. The vast majority of tier paying folk here aren't sexed up perverts. Since there are a lot fewer consequences to their actions in SL, they may be more likely to have a "hook up" than in RL but they aren't running around inappropriate areas with their stuff hanging out. If you think that is the norm then I suggest leaving the welcome areas and taking a walk through the real grid. There are a lot of people who have a sex bed in the residence that they pay rent or tier for but only use it with people that they are in a relationship with. As to why they do that in SL instead of RL, well you will just have to ask them. But you need to remember that they are the majority here and they built this world and they keep it running. Take away the reasons they have to pay all that tier and any illusions that the teens and the puritans can keep this place going on their own will be bitterly dashed. I suggest you spend your time trying to figure out how everyone can co-exist here and not spend it anticipating a situation that will not be good for anyone in the end.

Well, short term, you guys could limit access to the combat areas. Make them only accessible to certain groups so that it becomes harder for people likely to report you guys to "witness" the violations. Aren't some entire sims coming across with you guys? Still not entirely "proper" to be sure. I agree, SL should just make one small adjustment and a major headache goes away.

Yep, those are the boobies that I was referring to. For the record, I am with you on the whole sex is obscene and violence is ok thing. It makes no sense. But we all know that is the way that it is in a lot of the world and has been for quite some time. Even if it is the "rules" it does not make it any less strange. That being said, I still think LL should allow the teens to wargame on the MG though. It's would prevent oh so many problems if they did. The current cultural values at least where LL lives say that it's ok to let teens pretend to kill from a distressingly early age but they can't pretend to screw until they are of the age of majority. We should just go with the flow and "cry havoc and let rez the pups of war." It will go easier for everyone if we did.

Well then my apologies for this small misunderstanding. I suppose this may be another reason why the creation of fake adult accounts will increase. Hopefully it won't come to that. The current rating for violence in part reflects the tastes and desires of the current population that likes the General rated sims. It really hasn't been that big of a deal before now because "we are all adults" on the MG and anyone who wants to indulge in a little wargaming can enable and access an Adult rated area if they wanted to. By limiting simulated violence to the A areas, it keeps the sort of person who now enjoys the general rated areas from being exposed to it. I think that with the introduction of the teens, this needs to be addressed. There are probably a lot of teens who will happily stay in the G rated areas if they can enjoy the same SL experience that they are currently enjoying right now. It's obviously ok with LL and with the teens and their parents that they can blow themselves to pieces in a region that should be even more restricted than the G rated areas in the "adults only" MG. Who are we to object as long as they keep it to certain easily avoided areas. I would propose "grandfathering" violent content on the teen owned sims that are being migrated over or perhaps adding yet another darn rating to the mix (General, violence acceptable or PG-13 or whatever) to allow for graphic violence without boobies. If it was allowable for the teens before, it should be now. And "planting a deer crop" of violence allowed General rated sims will prevent en-masse assaults on a rather flaccid age verification system. I would like to see an army of Elvis impersonators do battle with a battalion of soccer moms who let their ID's out of their sight for a minute myself but it might not be the best thing for SL as a whole. If the teens are willing to stay in the G areas we should meet them halfway on this. I think this is more of yet another missed detail in getting ready for the merger. One wonders how may other "little details" have been missed. It is clear that LL is still completely unprepared for this merger and is still hell-bent on doing it. I wonder what the consequences will be for all involved.

Well, that is good to know. On the bright side, it looks like the Lindens only drop the banhamer on the originators but I think more than a few teens' inventories will be savaged in the end. I do expect the "copybot police" to be out in full force with the new year. What about people who distribute either knowingly or unknowingly copybotted content? For instance someone who handed out (or sold) a copybotted item to all of their friends? Would that teen just get their inventory purged or would they get the hammer? Yeah, it's going to be pretty ugly and I resent LL casting the adult community in the role of enforcer on this issue. There are probably going to be a lot of hurt feelings and perhaps a few relatively innocent teens getting the permaban in the first few months of the merger. The divide this will cause between the teens and the adult community won't make the transition any easier. Teens will have very good reason to believe that any adult just hanging about in "their turf" is trolling for copybot violations and adults will start to view every teen as a shoplifting miscreant who should be inspected for copybot violations because there is a good chance that one will be found. Yep, it's going to be fireside songs and s'mores all around.

That's... definitely going to be a problem. Most people here try to match up to the "main grid standard" quality of products. I myself have been getting into creating sculpted avatars and clothing. If someone is falsely reported for "suspicion" of copybot, would sending in copies of things like blender3D files or psd files to the support portal help lift a ban? I have not been involved directly in the copybot drama either as an accuser or as the accused. I've been around the issue and had an acquaintance go down for it (they were guilty). Usually it happens when someone recognizes a particular item from what I understand. I don't think you would be accused just because your stuff is up to MG standards (or better). If you created it, you should have nothing to worry about. You use blender? That crap hurts my head... Kudos. You might want to sanitize your inventories before the merger because there are a whole lot of folks that have absolutely no sense of humor about that sort of thing. Otherwise nice normal people who would otherwise "be on your side" will transform into slavering rabid berserkers over the copybot. It's kinda fun to watch. That really is hard to do. At some point or another, a stolen or frankensteined item bubbles up from the depths of your inventory. Just yesterday, I found I had a copybotted scarf and some copybotted Converse Pornstar shoes even ater i had already gone through my inventory twice deleting stolen items. AR's on the MG are an odd thing. There is no clear standard or uniform enforcement and it quite often boils down to which Linden is reviewing the AR and how they are feeling the second they review it. One person might get a warning, someone else will get permabanned under the exact same circumstances. I once had my account suspended for calling someone a "douchebag" (they were a linden's pet it turns out). That being said there tends to be a zero tolerance sentiment on the copybot. If someone who is still following this thread has some details on what they look for and how they handle an AR on this issue I hope they come forward with some useful info. It's as much LL's fault as anyone's for letting it get this bad. If it is as endemic as you say it is they had to know about it and turned a blind eye to the situaton for whatever reason. This is another of those things that they should have taken care of well before now if they actually gave a crap. They let this problem really get out of hand it seems. That really shouldn't surprise anyone. I suspect that this issue will cause the biggest rift between our respective cultures. I can't overstate how touchy an issue this is for a lot of folks. It really pisses people off. There are people who actually do walk around inspecting folks looking for this sort of thing from what I understand.

"I think one area where there may be a bit of friction is wargaming. By the current standards, violence is not really permitted in a general rated parcel. I think it is a sure bet that there will be an issue there." "Huh, so all damage enabled land is rated mature? That's something new to me. Well i suppose unless the current armies develop a new PG combat system using LSL." Actually it goes a bit farther than that. Review the link that I am providing concerning ratings on the MG. http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Maturity If there is activity involving "Representations of intensely violent acts, whether or not photo-realistic (for example, depicting death, torture, dismemberment or other severe bodily harm)" then it has to take place, not in an M area, but an A designated region. That is going to be a big cultural problem and one that will be both a source of AR's from people legitimately objecting to activities that are not appropriate for a given parcel's rating and from some of that "covert discrimination" that I mentioned earlier. This is a tiny little detail that LL really should have worked out before now. Of course they can't be bothered. You guys might want to start working out some plans on how to make this work, since it seems to be a large part of many teens SL experience. Perhaps restricting access to the parcels where the actual combat is going to take place so that busybodies will have a harder time busting you might help but we have some first rate busybody "SL nannies" out there that can really screw up a good time. Yeah, you guys are going to have a problem there. One of the other big concerns that I hear about (not that I personally care too much) is about the prevalance of copybotted content. How big of an issue is it over on the TG and do you anticipate problems once the merger kicks in? That is a worrying thing. It's a huge issue here on the teen grid. We aren't really talking about a few 3-5 avatars wearing some hair or a skin. We're talking about 90% to even 100% of avatars per region wearing near completely copybotted avatars starting from the shape down to the last bracelet. Guaranteed anything from hair to furry avatars to weapons all have their own illegal copies here going around for free or even sold. It's become so common that the very idea of speaking out against it is considered laughable. One copybotter account alone can contain up to 5000 stolen items. Multiply that by maybe 50 and you have a pretty big problem, though that could be due to our small size. Yes i do believe there will be issues with stolen content. The most that any creator can do is keep a close eye for their items. If you see someone wearing your product, I say inspect it quickly and double check. If it's stolen, notify the owner. If they refuse to remove and delete the item (which they most likely will) file a report or send in a DMCA. That's about it. The copybot issue is going to be another problem for you guys. Over on this side of the fence, copybotting is one of the big cardinal sins. If someone catches someone with improperly copied content, they aren't going to ask them to delete it. They will probably not even talk to them at all. They will summon the hounds immediately. If they suspect that it is improperly copied, they will summon the hounds. If they don't know but feel that there might be a fair chance that there is some copybotted stuff in someone's inventory... well you get the idea. Some of this will be part of that "covert discrimination" again. Regardless, if they can make it stick they will. You might want to sanitize your inventories before the merger because there are a whole lot of folks that have absolutely no sense of humor about that sort of thing. Otherwise nice normal people who would otherwise "be on your side" will transform into slavering rabid berserkers over the copybot. It's kinda fun to watch. That all being said, while I am still against the merger, I have come to believe that a large tear in the internets won't open up and swallow all of us whole on Jan 1st like I used to. There are a few obstacles and differences in culture that will be a problem, certainly. There will be problems. There may even be a tragic incident or two. If most of us are reasonable, cautious and treat each other with a modicum of patience and understanding, we will be ok. We won't do that of course. We will overreact and hurl accusations back and forth and indulge ourselves in histrionics and other assorted drama and act like the foolish animals that we all are but one can hope, right?

Discrimination will probably be more covert than overt. I think those of us who really don't want to interact with the teens seem to be just planning on pulling out of the G rated areas. Most people are generally decent enough and my guess that there will be more avoidance than outright hostility. No offense, but I will probably be one of those keeping my distance at first. ( I say that now but my love of chaos and novelty will probably have me venturing out for a good vantage point to watch the whole thing unfold. I will be the one on the lawn chair with the bag of popcorn.) I think one area where there may be a bit of friction is wargaming. By the current standards, violence is not really permitted in a general rated parcel. I think it is a sure bet that there will be an issue there. Safety is a major concern for all of us (as well as liability on the adult side). If I liked LL before, I certainly would not now. The level of concern they have shown all of us is simply appalling. Despite their bungling of this situation, I think that as you said, common sense should take care of a lot. One of the other big concerns that I hear about (not that I personally care too much) is about the prevalence of copybotted content. How big of an issue is it over on the TG and do you anticipate problems once the merger kicks in?

I do have a question Blaze. How are things over on the teen grid as we are approaching the merger? How are you guys preparing for it? I'm just curious as to how things are on the other side of the fence. Is there an overall sense of anticipation or dread? What do you, both you as an individual and you as a group, hope to experience dealing with the adult residents or are you hoping to avoid them as much as possible?

Nany, could you please stop going on and on about your pet project. Not every thread is an appropriate place for you to promote yourself. For goodness sake, this thread is about the introduction of teens onto the main grid and the welfare of minors, not yet another opportunity for you to turn this into something all about you. Please give it a rest already. Yes, we know you have a nonprofit and you have successfully managed to somehow panhandle enough to keep it running. Good for you! Now can we please return to the subject at hand which isn't you by the way.

One of the big concerns that I keep seeing raised and one that I have myself is how do I know that I am in communication (or other contact ) with an adult. There have been calls for LL to provide us with a means to identify an adult at a glance. Odds are, that's not going to happen. But the community at large could provide this for themselves rather easily. We can form groups with any name or tag that we please. It would be quite possible for someone to form an adult group. Not an "adult" group as far as "adult content" goes but simply a group where all of the members are verified adults. But how would we be able to do that? I'm not sending my personal information to some stranger! That's where LL has already helped us out. A lot of us are already age verified. Simply put a sign up kiosk or have volunteers stationed in an area where one has to be age verified to access. LL has already done the job of age verification for us. Sure, this idea has its faults but would provide about the same level of "protection" that we have now. People that wish to preserve the adults only nature of our community could then use these groups as a means of determining who they do and do not wish to converse or otherwise associate with. Just a thought...

I just logged on to state what you did, Jonathan. This is a venue to discuss the issues at hand. I hope the pissy fights are over. I'm still interested in what's going to happen in January and hoping some answers come out of this, and not at all interested in a few peoples fights that have nothing to do with SL. Maybe that is why this thread is ignored because Lindens know that all they have to do is be quiet and watch as this is discussion is derailed by the residents. Is it any wonder we can't get respect? I don't think so. It is far more likely that this thread is being "ignored" by the Lindens because they have already made up their mind to do something. Once that happens things are pretty much a done deal. A few misbehaving posters aren't going to discredit all of the "proper" feedback they would have received if they reviewed this or any of a dozen similar threads that have been generated since this whole train wreck was first announced. Yes, it is galling that a few people like to descend into personal attacks and thread hijacking flame wars instead of properly voicing their views. I have at times fallen into the trap of responding to those "thread nanys" myself. The only thing we can do is try to keep the thread on track by not letting those disruptive influences fully derail the conversation. As far as "why we can't get respect?" goes, from where? The Lindens? Their respect for us is well known and documented. A few of us throwing post snowballs at each other isn't the problem. The problem is that LL has absolutely no regard for their customer base. None at all. They have whatever grand vision that is clouding their judgement this week in sight and to hell with the rest of us. Take a look at the history of this place. We can post all we want here about the hazards and liabilities of this situation but the fact is that their lawyers have most likely told them that their asses are covered and that is pretty much all they care about. If a teen or adult resident gets into trouble here then that's their problem, not LL's. Perhaps if we put forward some good ideas, they might co-opt them. Maybe. If it isn't too much trouble and they have the man-hours to spend. Then again if they had the man-hours, odds are the teen grid wouldn't be going away in the first place. By all means, let's keep this on topic but if you are holding out any faint hope of the Lindens giving exactly one crap about what we think and feel then you are in for a big disappointment.

It's a joke, fool. I choose not to drag this public blog down by participating your self-absorbed twattle. btw, I count three spelling errors, six grammatical errors and logical fallacies too numerous to bother with in that mess you call your argument. The only thing you have said that is of the slightest interest is that you will finally shut the hell up. Thanks. As usual, Nany, you make a claim but offer no proof. Please share with us the three spelling errors, six grammatical errors and state and define the logical fallacies that you noted. You know what? That would be a rather long paragraph so just put forward one of each category. You have a great chance to actually discredit one of your detractors here. That is, if you actually did indeed note the errors of which you speak. Otherwise, you are a liar and a cheat. So, which are you? Are you able to support your stance or are you a liar and a cheat?

You don't know what will happen with Second Life let alone the 3D internet. You are just blowing stink. That's it? No rebuttal. No counter points. No real material to support your wild claims and vague predictions? That's because you don't really have anything do you? I may not be completely accurate in my predictions, but let's take a look in six months or a year and see which of us is closer to the mark. Say I am just blowing stink if you want, but you have done little to prove that. But proof isn't really your department is it?