Cabbage Acanthus
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Blog Comments posted by Cabbage Acanthus
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Discrimination will probably be more covert than overt. I think those of us who really don't want to interact with the teens seem to be just planning on pulling out of the G rated areas. Most people are generally decent enough and my guess that there will be more avoidance than outright hostility. No offense, but I will probably be one of those keeping my distance at first. ( I say that now but my love of chaos and novelty will probably have me venturing out for a good vantage point to watch the whole thing unfold. I will be the one on the lawn chair with the bag of popcorn.)
I think one area where there may be a bit of friction is wargaming. By the current standards, violence is not really permitted in a general rated parcel. I think it is a sure bet that there will be an issue there.
Safety is a major concern for all of us (as well as liability on the adult side). If I liked LL before, I certainly would not now. The level of concern they have shown all of us is simply appalling. Despite their bungling of this situation, I think that as you said, common sense should take care of a lot.
One of the other big concerns that I hear about (not that I personally care too much) is about the prevalence of copybotted content. How big of an issue is it over on the TG and do you anticipate problems once the merger kicks in?
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I do have a question Blaze. How are things over on the teen grid as we are approaching the merger? How are you guys preparing for it?
I'm just curious as to how things are on the other side of the fence.
Is there an overall sense of anticipation or dread?
What do you, both you as an individual and you as a group, hope to experience dealing with the adult residents or are you hoping to avoid them as much as possible?
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Nany, could you please stop going on and on about your pet project. Not every thread is an appropriate place for you to promote yourself. For goodness sake, this thread is about the introduction of teens onto the main grid and the welfare of minors, not yet another opportunity for you to turn this into something all about you.
Please give it a rest already. Yes, we know you have a nonprofit and you have successfully managed to somehow panhandle enough to keep it running. Good for you! Now can we please return to the subject at hand which isn't you by the way.
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One of the big concerns that I keep seeing raised and one that I have myself is how do I know that I am in communication (or other contact ) with an adult. There have been calls for LL to provide us with a means to identify an adult at a glance. Odds are, that's not going to happen.
But the community at large could provide this for themselves rather easily.
We can form groups with any name or tag that we please. It would be quite possible for someone to form an adult group. Not an "adult" group as far as "adult content" goes but simply a group where all of the members are verified adults.
But how would we be able to do that? I'm not sending my personal information to some stranger!
That's where LL has already helped us out. A lot of us are already age verified. Simply put a sign up kiosk or have volunteers stationed in an area where one has to be age verified to access. LL has already done the job of age verification for us.
Sure, this idea has its faults but would provide about the same level of "protection" that we have now. People that wish to preserve the adults only nature of our community could then use these groups as a means of determining who they do and do not wish to converse or otherwise associate with.
Just a thought...
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I just logged on to state what you did, Jonathan. This is a venue to discuss the issues at hand. I hope the pissy fights are over. I'm still interested in what's going to happen in January and hoping some answers come out of this, and not at all interested in a few peoples fights that have nothing to do with SL. Maybe that is why this thread is ignored because Lindens know that all they have to do is be quiet and watch as this is discussion is derailed by the residents. Is it any wonder we can't get respect? I don't think so.
It is far more likely that this thread is being "ignored" by the Lindens because they have already made up their mind to do something. Once that happens things are pretty much a done deal. A few misbehaving posters aren't going to discredit all of the "proper" feedback they would have received if they reviewed this or any of a dozen similar threads that have been generated since this whole train wreck was first announced. Yes, it is galling that a few people like to descend into personal attacks and thread hijacking flame wars instead of properly voicing their views. I have at times fallen into the trap of responding to those "thread nanys" myself. The only thing we can do is try to keep the thread on track by not letting those disruptive influences fully derail the conversation.
As far as "why we can't get respect?" goes, from where? The Lindens? Their respect for us is well known and documented. A few of us throwing post snowballs at each other isn't the problem. The problem is that LL has absolutely no regard for their customer base. None at all. They have whatever grand vision that is clouding their judgement this week in sight and to hell with the rest of us. Take a look at the history of this place.
We can post all we want here about the hazards and liabilities of this situation but the fact is that their lawyers have most likely told them that their asses are covered and that is pretty much all they care about. If a teen or adult resident gets into trouble here then that's their problem, not LL's. Perhaps if we put forward some good ideas, they might co-opt them. Maybe. If it isn't too much trouble and they have the man-hours to spend. Then again if they had the man-hours, odds are the teen grid wouldn't be going away in the first place.
By all means, let's keep this on topic but if you are holding out any faint hope of the Lindens giving exactly one crap about what we think and feel then you are in for a big disappointment.
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It's a joke, fool. I choose not to drag this public blog down by participating your self-absorbed twattle. btw, I count three spelling errors, six grammatical errors and logical fallacies too numerous to bother with in that mess you call your argument. The only thing you have said that is of the slightest interest is that you will finally shut the hell up. Thanks.
As usual, Nany, you make a claim but offer no proof. Please share with us the three spelling errors, six grammatical errors and state and define the logical fallacies that you noted. You know what? That would be a rather long paragraph so just put forward one of each category. You have a great chance to actually discredit one of your detractors here. That is, if you actually did indeed note the errors of which you speak.
Otherwise, you are a liar and a cheat. So, which are you? Are you able to support your stance or are you a liar and a cheat?
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You don't know what will happen with Second Life let alone the 3D internet. You are just blowing stink.
That's it? No rebuttal. No counter points. No real material to support your wild claims and vague predictions?
That's because you don't really have anything do you?
I may not be completely accurate in my predictions, but let's take a look in six months or a year and see which of us is closer to the mark.
Say I am just blowing stink if you want, but you have done little to prove that. But proof isn't really your department is it?
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If you are interested in how the nonprofit is doing, we can talk about it inworld if you like. I won't go into it in this blog. Thanks.
I am not especially interested in the state of your "nonprofit" .
I brought up the plight of the nonprofit and educational sector in SL to illustrate LL's overall level of concern for all of its residents. This was done to show that just because LL does not apparently care about those objecting to the introduction of teens to SL does not mean that they have made any decision to limit adult content here on the grid.
Quite the contrary in fact. LL created an entire continent here on the grid to preserve and encourage adult content. They could have simply done away with it, like they did with gambling. They instead built a giant monument in its honor, Zindra. I don't see a continent for nonprofits or education. I think LL has indicated their priorities quite clearly.
As far as the perverts "zipping up and leaving the bathroom", that's not gonna happen. The SL sexual enthusiasts have already adjusted to the new way of things. Most of them have moved over to Zindra. It won't take a lot to expand the clubs and the private estates to accommodate the few "power bangers" that still linger on the mainland. The teen merger won't affect them much.
The group that is objecting and will be affected the most are the "normal" adult residents on the mainland. These folks aren't super perverts, they just like their virtual life (all of it ) the way that it is. They don't do orgies or proposition every person that they meet, but they do like the freedoms of expression and self-exploration (of all sorts) that SL offers. These folks are the backbone of SL and are the ones that will be the most likely to leave. How many will go or change their spending habits and will there be enough of a shift to damage SL further remains to be seen but I wouldn't be counting much on an "explosion" of new demand for content creators for a bit.
Besides, do you think a successful content provider here in SL is going to completely pack up and leave over teens? That's foolish. They will probably just do what they are already doing, using their successes here in SL to expand onto the "other grids" out there. A unsuccessful mediocre builder has no reason to believe that their competition will simply vanish.
Unless, of course, there is little left to keep them here.
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Nany Kayo says in response to Brenna.Orellana:
Brenna, I have wondered whether mainstream entertainment with streaming video will get involved in virtual worlds like SL. It is a lot of fun to watch a show or game with a group of friends where you can get into group chat or private IM, hang out, go to other related events or do roleplay. A Battlestar Galactica roleplay project got nuked recently in SL for copyright infringement, but it will not surprise me when the copyright holders start setting up their own shops here. That is going to be a blast.
Same with sports bars where you can watch games on a big screen with friends all over the country.
There is so much you could do with this platform once it zips up, washes it hands and comes out of the restroom.
You quite often make the rather overly optimistic statement that all these wonderful things could be done with SL once it stops being so adult oriented. That's silly. The internet was practically a porn pit from early on and it did not stop real business from embracing it porn and all because it was a viable platform on which they could do business. If SL was the sort of place that they could do the same they would, regardless of how many people were screwing in the background.
You are right about LL not caring about the people that object to this merger. That's not because LL made a specific decision about them or about adult content. LL just doesn't care, the same way they did not care about non-profits just a little while ago. They are going to do what they are going to do and to hell with their customer base, any and all of it. They care about the teens about as much as they care about the rest of us. That is what has those of us who are actually concerned more about the welfare of minors and, indeed, all of their fellow residents than their own petty and ultimately doomed ambitions so very worried about the upcoming merger. Of course, you and LL have a lot in common. You are both blinded by your own rather foolish dreams and too busy counting the money that you will never make out of this to ever see the chance of it all going horribly wrong. Your lack of basic human empathy is appalling.
I'm surprised that you are still stating an interest in things here, Nany. You were crowing about moving on yourself not that long ago. Did it turn out to be too much for you?
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The economic data is almost reassuring, almost. A review of the comments shows that they have cut off the real time economic data and replaced it with the latest quarterly report. That is not reassuring.
There was also not a whole lot to this post was there? I would have liked to see more details.
Everyone has pretty much made up their minds on how SL and LL is doing by now. Nobody is really changing their minds about it anymore. That is also not reassuring. LL's credibility with a large portion of their customer base seems to be unsalvageable and the credibility of those who raise questions or complaints is discounted by anyone who is not already in agreement with them. No real dialog is taking place. I'm as big a fan of forum sparring as the next fellow but one does start to question if there is any point to it besides recreation.
Whatever fate there is for SL is in all liklihood already as set as the personal viewpoints of its residents. Those who are pulling their money out probably won't be putting it back in. Those who are putting in cash really can't or won't put in that much more. The only thing that will change is how they spend the same ammount of cash. The massive influx of new customers hasn't ever really materialized. What will ultimately happen? I don't know for sure. The only thing I feel confident in is that the course is already set and there is no changing our destination now.
Enjoy the ride.
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I do agree to a limited extent. I am fully aware of the person that you are talking about. People like that who are clearly playing the system are a huge part of this problem. I think while we are all pointing the finger at LL, we should also blame these sleazy non-profiteers for the demise that will befall all of the decent honest legitimite non-profit endeavors here as a result of this new policy. Those vermin have undoubetly played no small part in the "death" of the host. I am certain if any of us really thought about it, we can think of at least one individual or group that is "playing" the non-profit discount. Those people need to be blamed in this as well.
As people have said, LL offered the discount, therefore LL needed to make sure that only legitimate non-profits got said discount. And once that became too much trouble, LL withdrew the discount all together. They weren't obligated to offer the discount, and they are under no legal obligation to continue it. And I can't help but smirk at some of LL's biggest bootlickers getting kicked in the nuts by their own beloved masters.
Thing is, not all non-profits deserved this. The majority of them were just what they claimed to be, some honest well-intentioned hard-working people who really wanted to make a difference. It sucks for them. They have worked very hard developing their projects, benefiting all of us in some way or another in the process. These groups are the very ones that show(ed) that SL was more than just dance clubs and orgy rooms. They show(ed) the RL what was possible here. LL enjoys (enjoyed) the benefits of their hard work as much or more than anyone else. It's a pretty crappy thing that they are doing to them now. They can do it, but that does not mean that they should.
It would have almost the same effect if LL took a good, hard look at all of the non-profit groups and then make a case-by-case ruling on them and toss out all of the scammers. They could weed out more than just the one person Angel and myself are thinking of. Then, they could review the costs of maintaining the discount for who is left and perhaps they could still manage it, or manage some sort of discount in any event.
Problem is, they are in a bind as far as manpower goes. They can most likely not afford the man-hours to implement something like that any more than they can afford to keep the discount as-is right now. Also, by simply removing the discount entirely, they can avoid the hassles of justifying who loses the discount and who keeps it.
It makes sense. It's a bad move IMHO, but it makes sense.
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InWorldz? You mean that place where you can't even stay logged in for 15 minutes without crashing? Good luck!
If you thknk for one minuite that there is another virtual world that can stack up to SL, you must just stand around like a cigar store indian when you visit. None, and I mean none of the other places can hold a candle to SL. Why do you think they are cheaper? Because they know the business better or have a better mouse trap? Why do you think cubic zirconia is cheaper than the real thing?
Like I said! Good luck!
BTW, anyone who recommends that your entity leave SL and go to another world, be sure your name ain't on the paper. Your name will be mud after the first prolonged crash.
You are correct, mostly. InWorldz is a bit buggy and I do crash a bit when I go there, but I do go there, and often. It's a nice place. I don't stand around "like a cigar store indian" (your choice of words, not mine) either. Yes, it's buggy. Yes, it's crashy. And yes, loads of people are showing up each day. The "other places" aren't as big or as stable as SL.... yet. For someone who has no tolerance for "beta" such as yourself, SL is still the "only" option. Personally, I find the lack of such folks to be a big plus for InWorldz and the other places.
The "other places" are getting better each and every day. As they improve, more and more people are going to them, taking thier money along with them (at least some of it). A lot of folks aren't "leaving" SL and going to the "other places" completely. It isn't an either/or proposition. A lot of folks do like I do. I head to my "favorite" world and then if it is too buggy that day or if I want a change of pace, then I pop over somewhere else. As time goes on, I find myself logging into SL less and less each week. These days, I mainly just drop by to chat and hang out a bit.
You are correct, the "other places" aren't as stable or fully formed as SL. But they are getting better and bigger as time passes.
Is SL?
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Linden Lab does not lose money on their donation if they write it off their taxes. That's kindof the point of offering the discount to qualified nonprofits. The discounts are tax deductible.
Something besides money has made Linden Lab decide they don't want universities, libraries, museums and nonprofits in Second Life.
That's not correct. Sure, they can report less income because of the discount given to non-profits, but that just means that they aren't paying taxes on the money they did not make. This is not as profitable as making the extra money in the first place.
I am unaware of any tax credit for letting non-profits play make-believe at a 50% discount.
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Nany whatever textures I have up in the market place that are full perm If there are educational, and non profits you may use the full perm textures wherever you wish as long as they are not resold on the other grid. IE for personal builds and displays.
Also Nany you had so much faith in LL a few weeks ago, Might I ask where that faith is now?
I guess that this is the beginning of that whole new business model she was talking about during the teen threads. I would gloat, but this is a far too troubling and rather confusing development. Aside from some short term savings, what is LL going for here? This will effectively drive the non-profits out and as so many have already said, severely limit the educational opportunities that LL cited as one of their reasons for bringing in the teens.
???
I'm glad I pulled out my monies awhile back. This is not a good indication of LL's health.
The only glimmer of a smile that I can get from this is that LL just hauled back and kicked the last of their ardent supporters square in the nuts. I'm not really enjoying the misfortune of others, it's more a rueful smile of sympathy and commiseration. Feel free to drop by my park bench in whatever welcome area I am hanging about in this week and we can drink malt liquor and talk about how wonderful our SL dreams were. Maybe if we are lucky some newbie will appear all eager to "make something" here in SL and we can point and laugh.
If you have any real content in SL... for goodness sake, back it up now. Either make sure you have the "originals" on your RL hard-drive or export your stuff to another grid or two immediately. I've seen this pattern before.
It's not a good sign.
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Bringing Teens to Second Life’s Main Grid
in Inworld
A group blog by Secondlife in General
Posted
"Huh, so all damage enabled land is rated mature? That's something new to me. Well i suppose unless the current armies develop a new PG combat system using LSL."
Actually it goes a bit farther than that. Review the link that I am providing concerning ratings on the MG.
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Maturity
If there is activity involving "Representations of intensely violent acts, whether or not photo-realistic (for example, depicting death, torture, dismemberment or other severe bodily harm)" then it has to take place, not in an M area, but an A designated region.
That is going to be a big cultural problem and one that will be both a source of AR's from people legitimately objecting to activities that are not appropriate for a given parcel's rating and from some of that "covert discrimination" that I mentioned earlier. This is a tiny little detail that LL really should have worked out before now. Of course they can't be bothered. You guys might want to start working out some plans on how to make this work, since it seems to be a large part of many teens SL experience. Perhaps restricting access to the parcels where the actual combat is going to take place so that busybodies will have a harder time busting you might help but we have some first rate busybody "SL nannies" out there that can really screw up a good time. Yeah, you guys are going to have a problem there.
One of the other big concerns that I hear about (not that I personally care too much) is about the prevalance of copybotted content. How big of an issue is it over on the TG and do you anticipate problems once the merger kicks in?
That is a worrying thing. It's a huge issue here on the teen grid. We aren't really talking about a few 3-5 avatars wearing some hair or a skin. We're talking about 90% to even 100% of avatars per region wearing near completely copybotted avatars starting from the shape down to the last bracelet. Guaranteed anything from hair to furry avatars to weapons all have their own illegal copies here going around for free or even sold. It's become so common that the very idea of speaking out against it is considered laughable. One copybotter account alone can contain up to 5000 stolen items. Multiply that by maybe 50 and you have a pretty big problem, though that could be due to our small size. Yes i do believe there will be issues with stolen content. The most that any creator can do is keep a close eye for their items. If you see someone wearing your product, I say inspect it quickly and double check. If it's stolen, notify the owner. If they refuse to remove and delete the item (which they most likely will) file a report or send in a DMCA. That's about it.
The copybot issue is going to be another problem for you guys. Over on this side of the fence, copybotting is one of the big cardinal sins. If someone catches someone with improperly copied content, they aren't going to ask them to delete it. They will probably not even talk to them at all. They will summon the hounds immediately. If they suspect that it is improperly copied, they will summon the hounds. If they don't know but feel that there might be a fair chance that there is some copybotted stuff in someone's inventory... well you get the idea. Some of this will be part of that "covert discrimination" again. Regardless, if they can make it stick they will. You might want to sanitize your inventories before the merger because there are a whole lot of folks that have absolutely no sense of humor about that sort of thing. Otherwise nice normal people who would otherwise "be on your side" will transform into slavering rabid berserkers over the copybot. It's kinda fun to watch.
That all being said, while I am still against the merger, I have come to believe that a large tear in the internets won't open up and swallow all of us whole on Jan 1st like I used to. There are a few obstacles and differences in culture that will be a problem, certainly. There will be problems. There may even be a tragic incident or two. If most of us are reasonable, cautious and treat each other with a modicum of patience and understanding, we will be ok. We won't do that of course. We will overreact and hurl accusations back and forth and indulge ourselves in histrionics and other assorted drama and act like the foolish animals that we all are but one can hope, right?