Darrius Gothly

Y'know Toy .. if Brooke had done anything the same as the Old Guard did, I might agree with you. But from what I've seen, she's done it a whole new way ... including changing the name of the Office Hours to User Groups ... and that speaks volumes to me. As someone that has stood shoulder to shoulder with you on many issues, I'd like to suggest you grant her the benefit of the doubt for a bit. It might open the door to benefits for all. At the worst, if everything turns out the "same as it ever was" ... you won't have lost a thing.

We definitely stand together on the "off for the weekend" thing. I had it pounded into my head early on that if a mistake I made, or a mistake my company made put a customer at severe disadvantage then by all means my personal clock didn't matter one hoot. I was disappointed that the team did take the weekend off, but was willing to overlook it as a major faux-pas ... this time. (In all truth, I am so enthralled that we're getting routine feedback that I'm almost giddy sometimes.) My apologies for coming off snarky ... it wasn't my intention but upon rereading my reply ... yeah, it was. *blush* I do hope that as time goes by, the schedule for meetings does rotate all the way around the clock and even expand to include more than one meeting per day. (Or perhaps different times on consecutive days?) Since joining the World Wide Web, I've encountered a number of eye- and mind-expanding personalities from all time zones. It would be a major loss IMO to exclude a segment of the world's population due to the inconvenience of a clock.

Porky Gorky wrote: ... Any time spent discussing this name change at the next User Group meeting is time wasted. SECONDED!!

B00tsy.Compton wrote: Ehhm not sure what Europe time 9AM PST is, but Ill try to make it. PST is GMT-8, so 9am PST is 1700 GMT or 5pm.

Brooke, regarding your request for suggestions on how to improve the Product Release process ... one thing has bothered me about the existing process as we saw when MP was first placed into Beta (pre- pre- pre-Alpha). I was approached by Grant with an offer to join their Beta Test group. Along with that offer came a Non-Disclosure Agreement that was far far too restrictive. The conditions of that NDA would have hobbled me from ever mentioning the tiniest displeasure with LL lest I expose myself to serious legal liability. It also pretty much assigned every creation made before and after the signing to LL, and left me with not a single tangible benefit. I'm quite sure that an astute lawyer could have had it stricken down in court should that issue arise .. but be serious here! Why on EARTH would I enter into a relationship where my only means of protecting myself and the fruits of my labor would be to retain legal counsel and PRAY I could win? Especially when the party truly benefiting from that relationship is LL and not me?!? Beta Testers do LL a Service. A BIG SERVICE! Being a Beta Tester should be a function that is rewarded with some form of compensation and not severe restrictions for years and years. The MP was a total fiasco, I believe in large part because no one that was on the Beta Test team did anything to benefit the site and instead spent their effort protecting their own interests ... BECAUSE it was the only benefit they stood to gain for their investment. So in the future, be pro-active (by months preferably) in building the Beta Test Group, be mindful of the benefits that LL gains from their efforts, and be both grateful and gracious in rewarding them for their involvement. And get the legal beagles to rewrite that NDA so it sounds and works less like a prison sentence and more like a partnership with mutual benefits.

Loving Clarity wrote: Plus, let's keep in mind, LL is an AMERICAN business. Brooke is probably required (just guessing) to hold her OH on the clock which would most likely be during business hours in PST. So it would have to be sometime between 9am and 4pm SLT. So regardless of what time best suits Brooke, she might never be able to hold them past a certain time even if that's best for accomodating more users. Being an American, I've worked for American companies my entire life (or American divisions of International companies). I've often been awake at 4am, 6am, 10pm or any other odd hour on the 24 hour clock attending to the needs of my customers. I also worked weekends, holidays, my personal celebratory days and even found ways to work when the entire town was shut down due to weather concerns. (After a hurricane took out power for a week, I rigged up a generator to a laptop and finished the last phase of a software release ... because it had to get done.) Now maybe I'm an idiot for taking such measures to ensure my customers were happy, but I've worked with lots and lots of people that felt the same way too. So I'm not sure which American company you worked for or that you have in mind, but it sure isn't one that has provided my paychecks in the past. PS: I believe a careful student will notice that some of Brooke's posts on these forums have been well after 4pm SLT. Granted, they did take the weekend off, but not everyone is as insane as me. *grin*

Catwise Yoshikawa wrote: Merchant group in sl chat group better than twiter ;-) Totally agreed Catwise. The insistence that "Twitter is best" is not only a minority opinion but it is also clearly a self-centered trumpeting of a personal way of doing business. Sure, a few folks capitalize on Twitter to great advantage. But to assume that everyone that is impacted by the changes in the MP are also avid Twitter-philes is narrow minded and discriminatory. On the other hand, absolutely 100% of the people selling on MP are also easily able to join the In-World Merchants group. Twitter is a "fire and forget" messaging system whereas the Groups encourage conversation, discussion and massive participation by members. Has anyone EVER had a truly interactive 10-way conversation on Twitter? Yeah .. didn't think so. Yet it happens many times a day in the In-World Group.

Toysoldier.Thor wrote: I am not sure what the logic is for Brooke to change the long standing LL naming convention of an Open Office to a User Group meeting. It serves no purpose but to increase confusion and reduce effective communications. shrugs... but what ever. If I may offer my take on the name change ... it makes total sense to me. The term "Office Hours" imparts a couple of negative images for me. First among them is "we are on foreign soil." Attending a meeting in someone's office immediately puts everyone but the owner of the office at a disadvantage. I have worked for bosses and corporate stiff-necks that only EVER held meetings in their office because they used it as a way of ensuring there was no dissension and no disagreement with their mandates. The second reason I see is related .. sort of. A User Group is a collection of peers all gathered to discuss issues that matter to all. No one party is more knowledgeable or more powerful than any other. It's a looser feeling, a more informal setting, and a lighter mood that encourages better participation. Also since we are all equals, there is less tendency to crank up the emotion and rant against the indomitable authority. I see this name change as a positive. It takes away that feeling of attending the Shrine of the Gods and infuses the function with more of a "lets gather and talk this out to the advantage of both" atmosphere. At least, that's how i see it. But then I've never been too shy about cussing at the "Gods" either. *grin*

Rachel Darling wrote: 1. Except in rare instances, a single word in and of itself should not trigger an Adult or Moderate rating -- and definitely not when the word has perfectly valid non-sexual definitions. If you want to use a computer program to make those kinds of judgements, some intelligence MUST be built into it, otherwise ridiculousnous prevails...and ridiculousness is not conducive to business. http://blogs.secondlife.com/message/592050#592050

Lasher and Irene, You are both welcome. This world is getting smaller, but still there are chasms between us that sometime just seem ludicrous. I'd prefer a more sexually liberal and less violent moral climate too. However I'm not anxious to start a "Guns vs. Boobies" flame war either ... so I'll stop there. *grin*

Irene Muni wrote: Hi Darrius. I'm not from USA, I believe what you say. But is there in USA laws against cybersex (cybersex as in SL) between minors or cyber sex of minors with adults? I am not aware of any laws ... yet. But there have been a couple of well publicized cases where minors were caught having cybersex with adults, and invariably the parents of the minor made it sound like the adult cyber-partner was Satan him/herself. The media blitz that accompanied those cases was admittedly short-lived, but had a very rapid leap to the top of people's attention span. Even when it was shown that the minor lied, accessed "Adults Only" sites illegally and honestly should have been supervised by their parents, public opinion leaned toward blaming the adult anyway. However, in the cases I'm aware of, the chat sites and chat programs used escaped much negative press. I do not recall anything other than a passing mention about how the two cyber partners first "hooked up". I'm not sure why that is, but I think it may have been due to the large size and popularity of the sites/programs involved. (I am however just guessing on that.) ETA: The following link is from google.com showing results for "adult minor cybersex": http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=adult+minor+cybersex&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=

Linden Lab is a US company. As such, they are more likely to obey the laws in the US ... and the morality laws too. The diverse population of this country ranges from exceedingly liberal to incredibly restrictive. You can witness an incredibly wide range of moral guidelines just by driving the short distance from Los Angeles to Salt Lake City, Utah. Sad to say but the US is also incredibly litigious. People file lawsuits for the craziest things, but when they feel their moral character has been threatened, or worse when they feel the moral character of their children is under attack, lawsuit is usually about the first thing out of their mouths. It doesn't even have to be someone that is technologically literate. Quite the opposite in fact, a lot of people that haven't a clue about technology and Virtual Worlds like Second Life fear it greatly. Toss the gasoline of a perceived moral threat to their "innocent and manipulatable children" onto the bonfire of fear and ignorance and before long you have a heyday for lawyers and a nightmare for Linden Lab. In this country, until a person reaches the age of 18, they are (in most locations) considered a minor. Consider the so-called "Sex Offender" who, at the age of 18 had consensual sex with a person under that age and subsequently wound up convicted of a felony and marked for life with the stigma of the label. There are many cases of youthful couples who made the mistake of having sex on the day of one partner's 18th birthday, only to find out their innocent act of celebration has now turned one of them into a life-long felon ... unable to enjoy a normal life ever again. Yes Lasher, most of us on SL, and for that matter most parents in this country recognize their children are much more grown up at age 14 and up than the laws seem to indicate. But all it takes is a few extremists that garner the spotlight to ruin the freedom we now enjoy in Second Life. I don't like it, and every chance I get I take exception to having to live under the mandates of the least common denominator extremists in this society. But Linden Lab is a company with a lot more to lose and really not a thing to gain from making a stand. I for one would prefer that they take a conservative stance, enact rules that keep them out of the courts and off the news, and allow us adults to continue enjoying at least one safe haven of somewhat more liberal relaxation. Now excuse me while I go enable Advanced Physics and engage in some mindless wobble-watching.

Darien Caldwell wrote: Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Kyrah Abattoir wrote: The rating listing doesn't work properly stop tieing it to keywords LL are you stupid or something? this is an example of one of my products which is force flagged as mature. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/KDC-Classic-Housekeeping-uniform-black/1632631 THAT is my concern on all those products that we have listed with blog links, and links from other sources. When I clicked that, got the warning - adjusted - and nothing - no product - sent to a main page. This will be a dilemma for those who do major promotions, and rely on that product link going directly to product. Yes, it definitely should continue through to the item you wanted to view, once you click the +18 box. Sloppy coding. Agreed. Has anyone created a JIRA for it yet?

As my kids were growing up, from time to time they began gaining skills that they had previously not had. First drawings were crude, messy and often illegible, yet I praised them for their efforts and gave them the confidence to continue drawing. Today I have children willing and able to undertake new challenges and possessing skills that they might not have gained had I slammed them for their inability to paint like a Master Artist from day one. The new Marketplace Team is just that .. new. The Lead is barely 2 months old in this company and does not have the benefit of the months and years of experience in the trenches that we have. And yet you still believe in withholding any praise when they have shown they are wholly different than their predecessors and are willing to talk, listen and adjust to provide a better result? Wow .. and you call me negative.

Lasher Oh wrote: What I really wanted to ask is for the ability to sort our inventory by Maturity category. Nothing that involves rocket science just a simple bit of coding that rearranges our items by maturity. That would help us immensely to scan and sort our listings, cause then they could be bunched and easily identified. Add Maturity Rating Filter to Inventory > Manage Inventory page in Marketplace Please read, comment if desired, and vote to help indicate our desire for this feature.

Rya Nitely wrote: Darrius Gothly wrote: Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Curious....does this affect any of your listings? ROFLMAO!! Make up your mind Mickey .. which am I? Someone that speaks for others and doesn't have a voice because I never talk about how it affects me ... or someone that is solely focused on my own needs and world and couldn't give a damn about others? Someone who likes talking. GUILTY! Especially when I have something of import to say.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: probably not a bad tactic to toss a rather large preserver (8 paragraphs?) to the captain first, though! (particularly if captain has email notify set). sly...unfortunately a bit too obvious. amazing how people's senses and reflexes are on heightened alert during a disaster Interesting. When I took exception to the lame and clearly flawed release methods of the Marketplace, you took exception to me being blunt and honest and chastising LL. Now, when I see some of the same failures, but I ALSO see that they are rushing to fix the problems .. and I honestly point out the difference between this time and the prior .. again you take exception to me. It's just me you hate, isn't it Mickey? It really doesn't matter what I say or what side I take, you'll take the other side. Ahhh .. how delightful of you.

Dartagan Shepherd wrote: Selling life preservers to Titanic victims is only profitable if you can convince them that they're sinking. Rather than couch your response in some impenetrable yet mildly accusatory double-speak ... why don't you attempt some direct honesty and say what you really want to say? Wouldn't direct honesty serve a much better purpose?

Agreed, they can state that "attempting to avoid maturity censoring by altering your listing is a punishable offense" .. or some such language. However they didn't cough up the list when it was added to In-World Search and slammed a few innocent folks, and they've been silent on it whenever they've used it before .. so it stands to reason they have no intention of publishing it now either. It's just a shame they can't understand that its use is once again, just like it has been every time in the past ... WRONG!

You assume correctly, however if you had read these threads more carefully and paid more attention to my posts .. you wouldn't have needed to ask.

Mickey Vandeverre wrote: Curious....does this affect any of your listings? ROFLMAO!! Make up your mind Mickey .. which am I? Someone that speaks for others and doesn't have a voice because I never talk about how it affects me ... or someone that is solely focused on my own needs and world and couldn't give a damn about others?

Gavin.Hird wrote: You can choose between that and mass exodus of merchants when this fully dawns on them. As we have discussed in the 4Q economy blog thread: "...if LL expects a monthly contribution of $470 from each of these few accounts (85k) to make their business model work, they must do everything they can to support OUR business model so we can make payments. If not their business model will collapse faster than they can remake it into something else." I agree, the ramifications of using the outmoded and obviously error-ridden Naughty Word List is a foolish move. I have never liked products that use strictly a go/no-go blacklist method to censor or block content. (Anyone remember the Net-Nanny fiasco that blocked school kids from completing their assignments on Breast Cancer Awareness?) Clearly the programming staff made yet another famous blunder. I won't defend that nor will I excuse it. But I do not believe it was done with bad intent on the new manager's part .. or on the programmer's part either. They clearly need to amp up their in-house expertise, employ some of the tried and true methods of accomplishing these sorts of tasks programmatically, and stop messing around with quick fixes that are known to fail horribly. What I see VASTLY different this time around is ... we are actually seeing them back up and reverse direction .. and start working to fix mistakes. That alone is new behavior I have never witnessed before. (And if you ask anyone that was around during the Freebie Roadmap days, I'm not one to stop screaming until I see something get done.)

Gavin.Hird wrote: The logical thing to do would be to send the list to the email address of all registered merchants, in addition to post it in the wiki. It is not like 16 yos have never seen such words before if they stumbled over the wiki page... Pardon my interruption here but .. can you imagine the outcry that would occur if only ONE email got sent to a minor? "Yup, good old Linden Lab. Sending email laced with rude, offensive and disgusting language .. to MINORS .. via email." Can we say "Witch Hunt"? Maybe "Rioting Villagers with Torches and Pitchforks"?

CrashOV Uladstron wrote: They moved it back. INTRIGUE No, not Intrigue ... Positive proof that Brooke is listening and responding in good faith. Now for the BIGGER part of my thoughts. First off, I was at the OH where Brooke formally announced the Maturity Ratings changes. At that time it did not dawn on me how the staggering of implementation (changes to listings first, changes to personal preference later) would affect sales. I daresay it did not dawn on ANY of the Merchants at the OH or surely someone would have raised it on the spot. But, near as I can tell, not a SOUL raised a single objection of that nature. Yes, what's happened has had a serious impact on sales. But it's a side effect that WE did not see coming, and I'm betting neither did Brooke or the rest of the Commerce Team. But now that they HAVE seen it, I'd be willing to bet they are scrambling like mad to figure out how to undo the tempest in the quickest time frame possible. Brooke is the Product Owner, she is NOT the programmer. There are people that work for her that do the coding. The list of naughty words has been around for a while, it was used by the In-World Search Team and apparently is still being used even though it's been shown to be very problematic. (As evidence, apparently the problems that WADE1 Jya ran into with LOLO Pets being banned because of LOLO is still around and is affecting listings that use LOL in the text.) What is going on today is admittedly a massive blow to sales. No denying that. But I do not for one second believe this was done intentionally. And I damn sure don't believe they knew this was coming. If anything, this has been a big painful lesson to Brooke and team to pay special attention to unintended side-effects of sweeping changes. You can bet they won't forget this one for a long long time, and based on what I've heard from Brooke, I bet part of the reason the team won't forget is because she's gonna make SURE they remember. LL will never divulge the naughty word list. If people knew the list, then they would craft their listings to use similar words, much like email spammers use funny characters and odd spellings to circumvent the spam filters. Furthermore, if anything gets learned by this fiasco, it will be that depending ON that list is a fools errand. Let's see how long it takes them to stop using it .. and start engineering more intelligent solutions. As a programmer and long-time development lead, what I see has happened is the folks that were supposed to make a smart algorithm to simplify the process of assigning maturity ratings to every listing ... blew it .. big time. If I was Brooke, right now I'd be roasting a few chestnuts over an open fire .. in my office. I'd probably wind up having a few programmers sign a contract stating "I will not turn out code until it is FULLY tested again" .. in blood. And I DAMN sure wouldn't depend on SQA to tell me it was tested either. So let's back up a bit .. let the folks in the Commerce Team have some time to figure out how to put out this fire .. and have some patience. Because as I said at the top of this post ... the mere fact that this thread got moved BACK here is proof .. they ARE listening and responding positively.

/me lays a single soft velvet rose at the foot of the brick wall .. and waits for Ai to pause and take a breath ... It will be okay Ai .. I promise. It is always darkest before the floor caves in and the sky falls on your head. Errr .. something like that.