Dartagan Shepherd

Drongle McMahon wrote: "Link not behaving" ... try removing one"t" from "htttp". Thanks, I'm an idiot is about all I can say in my defense. Will leave it as it stands in case people are subscribed to the thread.

Err, make sure you wait until after the government shutdown is over before you try contacting the Federal Trade Commission, if you do. They're partially non functional at the moment. Sheesh.

Not sure who to ask, Toy ... do you guys at UCCSL know anything about the lawyer giving a talk on the TOS? From Hamlet's blog: "Agenda Faromet, by the way, is giving an in-world presentation on the new ToS soon; more details when I get them." Also mentions the SL Bar association, I'm not sure if you guys have spoken with them. And of course mentions about how when Google tried something like this they had to answer to the FTC. The Federal Trade Commission by the way, may not be a bad idea to send a letter to, especially if you can manage it with some signatures. Can't hurt. From: htttp://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/10/linden-lab-tos-1.html Edited: Link not behaving, beat it with a stick.

It's great to see people united on this. This little quirk I have is to change my signature upon something of note or dedicated to someone from here in these forums every 6 months or so. Of course it must be something from Heinlein, the last of a horse sense generation. This one's for you Toy, the members of the UCCSL and those with creators in spirit on these issues.

Thanks, hadn't known about that one. Now that you mention the wiki, could that be used as a way to detect changes by cut and pasting the TOS periodically? Not familiar enough with wiki editing to know whether a complete cut and then paste into the page would count changes in lines or whether it'd count the whole new paste as an entire change. It does do a diff on the page history. At any rate, there are also free diff programs. Or *cough*Darrius*cough* to provide a public page with TOS changes.

Was going to say the least they could do is provide a changelog of sorts. I appreciate this elsewhere ... any change has a human non legal explanation referencing changed parts of the TOS on any change. It works fine. Depends on how much they care or want to slip under the wire.

You're taking the DMCA out of context of action. Companies appreciated it because it removed them from being liable for the volume of content they claimed they couldn't police. And it's fair in that context for providers of services. It doesn't mean a company can't take action for their own reasons including erring on the side of caution. The DMCA bit is irrelevent on LL's side now that they have legal rights. Who are they going to file a DMCA with? Themselves? They'd simply remove it. The legal rights "may" be intended to protect themselves in the case of counter action. Either way at this point saying LL "can't" remove content and take more action is bogus.

Yes it most certainly is legal for a company to accept, decline, reject or remove any content for any reason they see fit. I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. They don't need to claim that it's IP. Although if they did claim that, they're still within their rights. They now have legal rights over the content. And they're certainly capable of handling those bazillion objects, they already do handle them in many ways every day.

It's LL's world. Everything is allowed at the companies discretion, especially now. Answer: LL puts down the breakfast burrito and removes the content in such obvious cases. No DMCA or legal battles needed.

There's always a point, it depends on the delivery and comprehension. Also, venting is valid. Thanks for playing.

The date is off on the Gamasutra article, it's from July.

Chic Aeon wrote: EDIT: and I see this thread now has over 5000s views. LOL. Some are "just us" but there must be other folks reading from afar. That works. Some are reading from here, also anyone subscribing to the forum or the thread wouldn't count as views. Besides I can feel the hairs at the back of my neck standing at attention. The creepy feeling is probably management in a trenchcoat and socks. LL: Down 40 regions this week. The only way you're going to begin to stop the bleeding is to first reverse this and then start taking more responsibility with your customers, rather than finding new ways to squeeze. Your Steam knockoff isn't going to accomplish that. Or your minecraft knockoff. Please keep up.

Also, they didn't need to assume that they could act as our attorney. All we've ever asked them for is to be swift and to remove content better. A simpler TOS stating that they can deactivate content pending investigation and that content is approved at their discretion would have done the trick. And then get back to removing what needs to be removed. No one gets to play attorney for me without express approval by myself or my own attorney. That doesn't happen with the click of a button, ever.

Good deal, I'm glad they decided to make the reference OpenSim. Their world, our metaverse. We kind of always knew the imagination bit was ours. Actually I'm trying to figure out how to reword their slogan now. Our world, your hijacked stuff, our power of attorney, your imagination if we can sell it ...or something.

What would be funny is for LL to take someone to court, only to have the original artist in turn take LL to court for misrepresenting them. I know I would, and if there were damages involved you can believe I'd be going after those and then something from LL. I'd probably also grant limited rights to the person that LL was taking to court free of charge, just because. And then I'd send LL a bill for having to handle various duties on their behalf, aside from the case.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: It's this section that has me scratching my head.. "Linden Lab has no obligation to monitor or enforce your intellectual property rights to your User Content, but you grant us the right to protect and enforce our rights to your User Content, including by bringing and controlling actions in your name and on your behalf (at Linden Lab’s cost and expense, to which you hereby consent and irrevocably appoint Linden Lab as your attorney-in-fact, with the power of substitution and delegation, which appointment is coupled with an interest)." Why do they need to act as our attorney? Are they going to go after copybotters or content thieves? Waiting for someone to say "oh, this is just LL trying to protect us from theft". No, this is LL positioning to have monetary rights on our goods, and then rights to protect their own interests. Still points to there being some kind of plan here, and not ignorance, laziness of lawyers or the best of intentions. For a company that has reduced spending on all fronts (SL events, Jira, one less data center, etc.), you can see how eager they would be to spend many thousands to fight for us legally. No a click does not grant you those kind of legal powers, LL. Doesn't give you virtually unlimited rights either, but thanks for trying. Racking up points in consumer trust as only LL can.

Sorry Toy, I promised to respond back to this post and some things came up. During the delay though, I did manage to talk to some people with knowledge and experience i respect. I did get one tidbit and that's to keep your powder dry if there's any forthcoming action. When talking about the why of it, I got pretty much the same reasons that we covered here, with one that I don't think anyone brought up, which would be the real "sky is falling!" theory, (should probably put this in Phil's theory thread in this forum) that it'd make sense before a shutdown of the product or company or downsizing and pruning to protect company assets. No, I'm not suggesting in any way shape or form that they're thinking of shutting SL down, it's their largest income. I'm just suprised that we didn't think of it first! I think we're just not good enough at the doom and gloom thing after all.

Thoughts on that later ... must beat some distractions off with a stick. Just a reminder that Hamlet put up a poll and article and that boy is always in need of reality doses. http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2013/10/second-life-tos-survey.html

Chic Aeon wrote: MEANWHILE, I want you to check out this comment to a post over on another forum . It is long, from a veteran of 3D modeling and gives a different perspective. Always good to have those. http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Mesh/Please-Tell-Me-I-Am-Wrong-TOS-Woes/m-p/2237617#M23637 Good reference. We've been primarily focused on the ethics here which is bad enough. That the new TOS makes it prohibitive to work with clients now, or for companies to work with their own content in SL is also a very big deal. I know Rod said the "hobbyists won". More accurately is that LL lost every market but the hobbyist. Disclaimer that it's Rod's definition of hobbyist here, the actual truth is that the people earning incomes here are not hobbyists, they're professionals. Boneheaded moves like this are why they continue to lose the business applications of SL. It does show the mentality of management though. Silly hobbyists, give us your rights, shut up and go play.

"Yes, protests have worked in the past. As Dartagan will tell you, he and I first tangled over the Freebie Tax. I joined up with many others to begin and promote a protest that rang from edge to edge of the grid. I even went so far as to organize a protest rally on Linden-owned land. Apparently it worked because they never implemented the L$99 per Freebie tax they were planning on." Ugg, right. Was on the wrong side of that one, but thankfully the majority spoke. In hindsight that path may have led us here that much sooner. Also true that it's not so gloomy and doomy. I used to feel the same way about it, but there's bound to be a bit of puppy kicking when you feel wronged.

Suprising and yet not. The art community has a long and fairly standard history and set of agreements with IP on artwork. The TOS is much less suited to art than some other mediums now.

Sorry about that, just a quickie organic guess. I'd imagine we're not close to done getting at how many people are affected and what stands they've taken yet, word is still getting out. Belated great job, by the way. Proclaiming the A in your forum badge to stand for Activist.

" I have been watching the MP numbers since the new Tos. The numbers have steadily risen. I don't see what leaveing will do. Yes, it will ease your mind, but will not hurt LL at all." Private estates are down last week by 5 times than the week prior and more than double over each week in the prior month. One external content site has cut off SL. Many blogs and much conversation ... priceless. That said, no one wants to see it die or for creators to stop creating or merchants to stop selling. A boycott would be an awesome statement and one they'd surely listen to, but itt's not required. A year or so ago, I dumped our region on principle. When you see a double digit decline in regions partway through the year, you know iit's not all roses and business as usual. But right, they've been hurting now for quite some time. At any rate, there's no mass exodus and was never a claim of one or a cry to. Probably some 50-200 people all told decided to halt creating or leave all told. Perhaps more. If you want to put a dollar amount on the conjecture, feel free. It's less than all and more than nothing.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Trinity Yazimoto wrote: There is an alternative : Join the fight ! Whether you will go on creating or not. This is your decision and no one can judge you about that. But you can also join the fight and stand up for your content creator's right. There is no fight. We can **bleep** and complain all we want, LL is under no obligation to change anything. I highly doubt all of the creators out there will pull their stores over this. Those that do it for fun and enjoyment will continue to do so. Those that rely on their sales for RL income will have to keep doing so. "You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged." -- The Matrix Also, you would think a wet blanket would put out a fire, but no ... it will smother the flames and then the remaining heat will burn through the blanket and the fire will ignite once again. If you don't mind though, I need it to make smoke signals to other creators. Yes, I've done a stint as a Boy Scout. Seriously though, it isn't a fight yet. It's awareness ... and it's working. "We have survived by hiding from them, by running from them, but they are the gatekeepers. They are guarding all the doors, they are holding all the keys, which means that sooner or later, someone is going to have to fight them." --- Also from the Matrix So yes, there is a fight, but there is no spoon.

Knowingly: Commerce team that reads the forum every day reading posts complaining about stolen goods. Employees that remove some of the reported content, that understand the scope of the problem. Anyone accepting DMCA's that understand it's a regular thing. Employees that attempted better control over the situation with a now outdated commerce roadmap. Probably no longer found. Legal team that needs to deal with the occassional issue. Any employee that remembers Stroker's lawsuit about LL being negligent in this regard. Anyone who takes the time to browse the marketplace looking for violations and IP abuse. Any employee in the mesh beta, looking at plenty of examples of mesh that came from elsewhere. Anyone at LL not living under a virtual rock.