Zena Zemlja

Mony Lindman wrote: Theresa Tennyson wrote: I think I've got the relationship between the new world and the existing Second Life figured out - it has a very simple real-world analogy, but one that doesn't immediately come to us because of how our world currently works. If this was happening one or two hundred years in the past or possibly one or two hundred years in the future it would be instantly understood. The new world will be a colony of Second Life. Colonies are created by existing cultures in some new territory. Only a few settlers arrive at first. Anyone can come and bring their identity, but they can only bring a few posessions and if you try to recreate your old lifestyle under the new conditions you'll end up looking like a fool at best. The colony will share a culture with the old world but will eventually develop its own - it may be dominated by the movers and shakers of the old world or it may be the new players who understand the new conditions better who will prosper. People can travel freely between the mother country and the colonies but most end up picking one or the other. Colonies begin as financial burdens on the old country as their set up but they exist because they can provide resources the old land can't provide and the assumption is they will eventually be an economic asset for the old world. In our time period we don't really understand colonies because there isn't anywhere new we can get to, and also it's a loaded concept today because we understand that the colonies of the past weren't really "new" at all - they already had people living there who had no say in the matter. This new virtual world, though, will actually be unpopulated - it would be closer to some space colony of the future. The USA (at least parts of it) also started by being a british colony. And now ? Does the UK still rule the world or at least the waves , or is it the .. colony that rules all ? Not to mention that tomorow it could be China. But thats maybe off topic.. for the moment The colony does rule our second lifes.. not sure about our first lifes though :smileywink: And now that the colony has a swedish CEO on board, it's going to rule things quite different as well! :smileytongue:

Gavin Hird wrote: This is probably the most important announcement this CEO is going to make (working for LL). Yet, he comes across totally unprepared. Such an announcement should not need any damage control at all. People should be positively excited after a major announcement like this. ;-) I agree. Huge mistake. And if you read back my first posts in this thread, you'll see that I was not happy at all, and I'm still not. I'm just trying to see things from a more positive perspective now. Given the mistake made, I think he did a good thing coming here, but I'm not saying all is well now, because he still has to correct his mistake for not making the official announcement. And I don't envy him on that, because with what happened so far, everyone will analyse every comma written on that announcement, so I guess they will take a few days to make it a really good one. :smileywink:

You can rewrite my post all you want, but I do think he did some nice damage control here. It did give people some answers, at least it did give me some. And I expect that reading our comments will have given Ebbe some insight in our concerns that might actually help them make the transition better for us. They will soon have to come up with their official announcement for all residents, and they should know now, because of our comments, what concerns to address. Because right now, prolly no one who heard the news will be investing in their business anymore or buying anything. So they better come up with some information that makes us believe doing so will still be worth while for us. Otherwise sl will just slowly die untill the new world is up and then nobody is there to transit anymore.

I agree. It was a huge mistake to not inform their own residents first. And they still owe us an official announcement that reaches all residents, and they better do so quickly.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Have you seen any of the chaos in the inworld groups because most people Inworld have no idea what is going on? The FUD is running rampant and all it would take is a simple post on the main page and on the log in screen to fix. This has been going on for 9 days. It's not whining, it's smart business practice. They have the means to tell everyone about it, but they choose not to. And you are impressed with him... I think I did say this in my post: "It would have been good thinking from LL/Ebbe to sent an email to all residents with same information, I still think that is what should have been done" So we do agree on that, no need to argue, they should have informed us all, we should not have to hear it from a tpv meeting he had and someone who happened to be there, or read it on the net in some interview on whatever site but the sl site. And yes, they still owe it to us to give us residents the information like they always do in emails, and I do NOT understand why they did not so far. And yes, I saw the confusion in world. As a matter a fact, I heard the news in world myself as well, and it brought me here to see what was said about it on the forums. I do expect LL to make up for their mistake and make an official announcement to send to all residents like they should have in the first place. Having said that, yes, I think he did some impressive damage control to make up for his mistake by answering all our questions and comments. In my world people always get a chance to make up for their mistakes. If you never make mistakes, then maybe you never have to make up for one, but I sure do, and maybe, just maybe, Ebbe is just as human as I am. I expect an official announcement for all sl residents soon now, within two weeks max.

Drake1 Nightfire wrote: Suspiria Finucane wrote: I'm really impressed that Ebbe told everyone about the new product sooner than later. Too bad he has only told a few select people over on SLU and came here when the FUD was runnning rampant.. Still nothing on the official SL website. So, no, he hasn't told everyone. Most of SL is ignorant of this. He did not tell SLU first. Go and see. He did not. He only visited there in february to say hi, because a member of SLU invited him on twitter to do so. Then about a week ago, someone from SLU posted a message saying he had been at a tpv meeting with Ebbe, and there it was that he told about the new sl project. There and in a dozen interviews you can find on the net. It would have been good thinking from LL/Ebbe to sent an email to all residents with same information, I still think that is what should have been done, but, he did not announce it himself on SLU. So stop saying that and whining he should have come here first. He came here to answer all our questions in this thread, to the best of information he now can provide. And I must say he did handle some trolls and bashers here in a cool way as well. He sure has my attention.

Mony Lindman wrote: So why telport at all under these circumstances ? Maybe to keep ones identity, ones unique name one has since registered, keeping ones groups, friends, and not having to upload all textures again, and all notecards. It would at least save all stuff that would be compatible with the new world.

Gavin Hird wrote: Zena Zemlja wrote: Whatever you call it, the point is that not everyone now using sl will have a computer compatible to go there. There is bound to be some collateral damage, so you are right about that. We can also assume that "something" that will run on a mobile device will handle better also on less powerful traditional PCs so it might not be so bad as you think. If you are right about this, then that would be a major improvement for a lot of residents for more than one reason only.

Gavin Hird wrote: Zena Zemlja wrote: I have to agree with you on this. Not everyone has the last new high tech computer. Making a new high tech world will not make them buy one. They simply will not be able to afford it. This is not about developing high tech, but moving into the mobile space where all the action and big revenue are these days. Whatever you call it, the point is that not everyone now using sl will have a computer compatible to go there.

Gaia Clary wrote: Medhue Simoni wrote: After some deep thinking about what compatibility will actually mean, in reality, I started to think that backward compatibility might be completely convoluted. Please, take a long look at what the reality of asking for this means. First, it can't actually happen, without converting EVERYTHING over. That means scripts too... My point is, IMHO, all this energy spent on backward campatibility is energy misspent, for both LL coders, and SL creators. That energy could be much better concentrated on making the best world possible... Embrace change! Don't let fear keep true change from happening! Hi, Medhue; I believe you are right. I think that if LL would be able to keep the new world fully compatible to the old world, then they would not need to create a parallel world at all, but rather upgrade the old one. But i believe that the major reason for not going this way is complexity. And i fully accept that creating a new and better world will need serious changes in many aspects. And since the better world should be... better: I personally think that if the new Avatar comes with all what the old one is missing, then stepping forward must be a joy. I predict that new Avatars will look awesome right from the beginning (ok, maybe after a short while). And use less jugglery with weird features (like fitted mesh for example :matte-motes-sour: ) And another question raises... Will we have a new System Avatar with a Shape system ? If that will be, then there is probably a chance to convert an SL Shape to the new Avatar shape system. And then we can preserve our shape. This could work, maybe not one to one, but at least to some extent, so we do not need to start our shaping from zero. All that LL would need to do here is: Describe the new shape system in detail Provide a shape importer But honestly, i would rather see an improved shape editor (for human beings), maybe similar to what MakeHuman provides. That would be fun... Regarding Clothes... @Ebbe: If you want to become a hero, then consider to let this be implemented : Gaia, I so hope Ebbe reads your post! I love your suggestions for the shape system, and that video about clothing looks way cool. It does not seem to need any invisible layers, which do spoil a lot of the fun for wearing mesh. You wear a skirt, you sit down and everyone sees your legs under the skirt are gone. I think that's just as bad as the old prim skirts showing all of your legs.

kiramanell wrote: Tanita Blackburn wrote: Ebbe I hope you read Macklin Deckard's original comment because I couldn't agree more to this ! Straight to the point. I will not migrate to any new grid - I will stick with 1.0 as long as it is fun and my business runs stable and after that I am done with Linden Lab. Migrating ? Investing all that money again ? tens of thousands of $US ? - Maybe only to find out after a year or two that 2.0 is not working out and they shut it down ? Migrating back to 1.0 after that - or to 3.0 ? - It was you who said in your original posting they you cannot say wether or not you will shut down the old or the new grid or keeping them both or what the future will bring ... Not very promising, is it ? Defintely not enough ! - Ebbe, you asked a few times your suggestive question what we would like better - Linden Lab coming up with a new grid or someone else ? Trying to make us believe it can only be bad if someone else would do it. The answer is - someone else would be very welcome ! - The only reason why me and many others are still here is because there IS nobody else. External competition would be good. One thing that really stood out to me over the years, is that LL got annoyingly greedy with their land-prices. Some stiff competition might jolt them back into reality, maybe. My main gripe with all of this, however, is the fact that ppl seem to be drooling over a shiny new, and vastly superior, Matrix 2.0, whereas in reality people's computers can't even handle, say, and upgrade to the point-light sytem. Most ppl simply can't even run SL1 at maxed out graphics settings (unless they're okay with 5 fps). So, why this sudden executive push towards an allegedly superior world? Is that decision based on reality in any way? Like some insider knowledge that GPU's are going to run 10x faster by the end of next year, or something? My long-winded point being, I don't think the world is ready for SL2 yet (heck, see above, it's barely ready for SL1 even). What this WILL cause, however, as you point out, is chaos, a weird competition between LL's own 2 platforms, uncertainty leading to certain drop in sales, and ppl willing to invest progressively less in SL1, thus hastening its demise, leaving a 'maybe it will work out' future for SL2. I have to agree with you on this. Not everyone has the last new high tech computer. Making a new high tech world will not make them buy one. They simply will not be able to afford it.

Parrish Ashbourne wrote: Phoebe Avro wrote: The viewer will be all and end all, if its not 100% right and LL should not be asking us whats great agout TPV's they should be testing them out! Put it this way if another company started a new fantastic world next week dont you think LL staff would go look see what they had and check out the viewer if any? so why dont they know whats the alternative viewers offer i would want to know? one word "arrogance" Until Ebbe got here, sounds like the went even allow in world for a while, so wern't using any viewers. But good point, and besides using them I think checking out Firestorms help island would be good I liked their viewer walk though. I think one of the problems is that it's easy to check out a new viewer just walking around talking to people, that will show you the differences in look and feel but that dosen't show differences in building tools and features like RLV, these are't just conveniences there make or break features. I could see lots of people not wanting to leave SL for SL2 just because of TPV features. This!

Dresden Ceriano wrote: Most, but not all, options available in Firestorm's Preferences menu are also available in the official viewer through the debug menu. Firestorm simply makes it easier to access those features. Obviously, LL has chosen not to make them as readily available. I can only imagine that this is because they wish to keep their viewer as uncomplicated as possible... therefore, only supplying us with that which they believe to be most important to the common user. I don't necessarily blame them for doing so. The Firestorm team has classes where people can learn how to deal with the complexity of their viewer. LL will never do this, therefore, they must dumb down their viewer (so to speak). And, lets face it... even their less optional, dumbed down viewer is very complicated in itself. LL will never release a viewer as feature-rich as Firestorm, if only because they simply won't allocate the manpower needed to provide the necessary user support for it. ...Dres As a non tech person, I have to disagree with you on this. Firestorm is way easier to use for noobs than the original viewer. The classes Firestorm runs are an extra service that in my opinion would be much more necessary for the original viewer. The original viewer just totally freaks me out. It's boring and it's frustrating, and I frankly cannot see why LL would deliberately dumb down their viewer to bore and frustrate us, I have no clue about why they are doing what they are doing, but I know it does not work. They need to get of their high horses and learn from the tpv's.

Mony Lindman wrote: I wanted to participate in this viewer discussion so i dared to log in today via the last version of the official viewer. For the first time after 2 or 3 years .. at that time i wanted to use it but didnt succed to stay in longer than a few minutes.. it drove me crazy.. Now i am still in it as i write in order to study it but i cant promiss i will stay too long because .. it drives me crazy .. Am I blind or there is no setting where i can tell my head or at least my eyes to no longer follow the mouse? Typical noob question, i know but in this viewer i am noob and in FS i never had this problem. Am I stupid or is this a bug or.. is this the way it was conceived that in order to wear a new hair i must first detach the old otherwise the function wear acts like add ? But only by attachments .. Am I stupid or are they stupid to not save different login names and passwords although save password is checked and aso the option multiple viewers ? Each time i try it with an alt i must type again the login data and when i go back to my main avatar i must type it again coz it keeps only the last one and doesnt make a list to chose from like "normal" viewers .. Ah.. and it looks like each alt must set up his viewer preferences coz they are not taken from the avatar that was loged in before.. Am I blind or you cant search inventory by creator name ? Not to mention what not evn FS has but would be needed : search by permissions Am I blind or the button for notifications can not be moved at the bottom of the screen? I found the "set default upload permissions" but i cant find a place where i can set default permissions for objects i create. Am I blind or .. is it so? Does it really have so little options in Prefernces or am i blind and dont see something on which i could click to get more ? Is it normal that it loads the inventory again whenever i log in , which in my case , by over 300k items takes ages ? And .. really no copy/paste function for object size and rotation values ? I thought i can use it at least for whenever i wear some fitted mesh because the last FS, that can deal with this takes just too much of my 8 GB of RAM and i need RAM elsewhere. The official viewer takes less.. BUT put a mesh body on and try to edit the shape behind it .. your whole body VIBRATES by each change .. Please tell me that im blind or stupid .. or both and these things are not really meant to be so in the "official SL viewer , last version". Because if its really meant so , how can anybody use it ? Your message reads like a freakin horror movie... brave you, to go in world in the original viewer! I am quite certain that it makes most noobs leave after a few days, unless someone tells them about tpv which may make them decide to stay after all.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: Zena Zemlja wrote: Dresden Ceriano wrote: Phoebe Avro wrote: The viewer will be all and end all I disagree, I survived for years on the official viewer simply because I was intrigued by SL and it was the only option there was at the time. Of course, the difference now is that I know how much functionality that TPVs can provide and would surely be disappointed by any less. But that in itself wouldn't be a deal breaker. ...Dres It would be a huge dealbreaker to me, as I totally hated the new viewer sl forced upon us a few years ago, and I might have left if there would not have been Phoenix. I seriously think that the tpv's helped sl survive when they created one of their worst viewers ever. I completely agree with you about the fiasco which was V2. I'm sure that, had I not already been using a TPV, having that mess forced upon me would have convinced me to start doing just that. But, I'm also sure that, should no such options had been made available to me, I would have suffered through it in order to remain in SL. The viewer is certainly important, but it's not, as you said, the be all and end all. ...Dres It was actually Phoebe who said it, but I agreed with her and I still do. I understand it would not be a dealbreaker for you, but it would be for me.

Dresden Ceriano wrote: Phoebe Avro wrote: The viewer will be all and end all I disagree, I survived for years on the official viewer simply because I was intrigued by SL and it was the only option there was at the time. Of course, the difference now is that I know how much functionality that TPVs can provide and would surely be disappointed by any less. But that in itself wouldn't be a deal breaker. ...Dres It would be a huge dealbreaker to me, as I totally hated the new viewer sl forced upon us a few years ago, and I might have left if there would not have been Phoenix. I seriously think that the tpv's helped sl survive when they created one of their worst viewers ever.

Chic Aeon wrote: It was in Firestorm long before Phoenix disappeared Must be it when you say so, I wouldn't know this as I actually only started using Firestorm after Phoenix was not supported anymore. So all I know is that when I started using Firestorm, it was gone. But it would be nice to have it back in the new world.

Perrie Juran wrote: Dresden Ceriano wrote: Alright Ebbe, I've been reading a whole hell of a lot of what other people have been writing about this (what I consider to be) exciting development and, after careful consideration, have come up with the one thing which would make my migration to this new platform extremely uncomfortable. Of course, I only speak for myself when I say this, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would feel this way... I know that you've already said that it's important that we're able to transfer our identity to the new world, but my identity, for me, is more than just my name or friend list or inventory or $L balance. This is me... This is what represents me in the virtual world. This is the image which I've created over the last almost six years by tweaking my shape and carefully choosing elements created by others. I may not be much of an original content creator, but I assure you that putting this avatar together was definitely an exercise in creativity. I love my SL home and my SL land; I adore the people on my friend list and I treasure many of the things in my inventory, but none of them compare to the emotional investment in which I've made to my avatar. I've been to other virtual worlds... Inworldz, Open Sim, Cloud Party, Blue Mars... I just never felt comfortable there for the simple fact that I couldn't look anything like what I thought of as myself. Could I have gotten over it, had I have given myself a chance to do so?... possibly. But, I'm more than certain that, should I had been able to enter those new worlds in a form with which I was familiar and emotionally invested, I probably wouldn't have left them as quickly as I did and would have, at least, tried to judge them on thier own merit once I got there, rather than have left them because I simply couldn't connect with my avatar the way I do in SL. Emotions can be a very powerful motivation. If you ask me, emotional investment is the very thing that has enabled Linden Lab to keep SL alive for as long as it has. My suggestion to you would be to capitalize on the emotional investment of your users by pandering to it. With that in mind, here's my idea... make legacy avatars portable to the new platform from the get go. That way, it creates the illusion of using one's current SL avatar to explore the new world as their old avatar self.... in which they've got an emotional investment. Yes, I'm suggesting that you enable the use of the old antiquated avatar base in the new world... yeah, it's ugly... but it's familiar. And, if your new avatar system is so much better (which I'm sure it will be), I'm certain that people will start adopting it in droves, once they get there and can see the difference. Why else would mesh body parts be such the rage nowadays? ...Dres Very good point. I'm not sure exactly how long it was after I started that I first customized my Ava, maybe a month or so. I had been friended / adopted by a small group of who had migrated to SL from Myst Online (Uru). They gifted me several thousand $L's for the purpose of fixing up my Ava. I spent the next three days shopping for a shape and skin. My representation of myself was important to me. A couple of years later friends started bugging me to "upgrade" my skin. On my third rez day I was gifted $Ls again for this purpose and the search for a better skin began. That took me two weeks because I did not want to change my essential appearance. I finally found a skin that did the trick and I was a very happy camper. Ebbe, for many of us this is a very big deal. If I should choose to move to the New World, it would not be with the intent of changing my identity. And a big part of it is how I look. I'm sure there will be people who will look at it as a way to start all over. People do that all the time now, create new accounts from scratch and leave the past behind. But for me, I have no desire to do this. This actually is one of my concerns too. If the avies will be mesh in sl2, will we be able to customize them ourselves, like we can now with the shapes we get when we register? First thing I did in sl after registration, was editing my shape. I customized it to my rl me, and I never changed it since. Only bought new hair and skin, but my shape is my own creation, it's one of a kind and nobody has a copy, except my own alt. I hope we can do something similar in the new world, and not need to accept some non-editable mesh thirteen-in-a-dozen doll to be us.

Chic Aeon wrote: And yes, for those of you that do not use the LL viewer it would be good to at least install and try it. LOL. It is pretty painful when you are used to all your powerful bells and whistles. I had to use it for awhile when materials came out. I cringed a lot but made it through. I predict that the viewer will be a BIG part of the acceptance of the new world. Agree! And yes, I tried the original viewer, to find out how some tool I use for my business works there, so I could explain it to a customer who used original viewer. What can I say... I survived... and then I thanked Firestorm on my knees for their viewer. Chic Aeon wrote: AND -- I am not sure about something you said earlier about the Z axis. You CAN change that in the Edit Shape menu -- first pane which I think is "body" or something like that. Bottom. It is called Hover. If you are going to USE that shape you need to save it. If you are just taking photos and need your feet to touch the ground, you can simply minimize the window. LL was very nice and included that in a round about way when the original height changing was broken due to some improvements; I can't remember what exactly broke it. It was a feature in old phoenix viewer, one could change it in preferences, phoenix tab, avatar. Now that phoenix is gone, the feature is gone too, as Firestorm does not have it. I tried the edit shape option, but it does not do the same with the same effect. Just one of those things one is used to and you miss it when it's gone. My worry is that this will be the case in the new world with a lot of features.

Magnus Brody wrote: Zena Zemlja wrote: I actually do write poetry and do sell them, either illustrated and framed or on a notecard, and yes, they do sell on notecards. You cannot make them no copy though, otherwise no one can read the notecard (something I never really understood about the permissions of notecards). But you can make them no mod and, if you wish so, no trans too. Who ever would have thought eight years ago when I registered for sl that my poetry would be a business to survive best all current plans and changes to come! :smileylol: Difficult to no transfer as copy, then paste to new notecard lets new owner set their own perms? It actually is not of much use to set permissions on notecards, because even when no modify, one can indeed always copy paste the text to a new notecard. I sell them copy trans no mod, the latter only to stress the importance of the fact that they are copyrighted poems. The illustrated and framed editions of the poems are prims with mod, trans, no copy permissions. But prims seem to be changing in the new viewer. Worst case scenario that means I may have to reframe about a thousand artworks to continue my business. :matte-motes-confused:

Vivienne Schell wrote: "LL isn't the only company working on making a next-gen virtual world right now." Who else does so? I mean, with nipples included? :matte-motes-nerdy: I'm afraid nipples will be forever adult content, female nipples that is. I don't know why male nipples are no adult content, as they do look the same as female nipples, but I guess they are moderate content because male breasts are less sexual to... I don't know really to who, I actually think they are quite sexy.... but anyways, not sure if they are allowed as moderate or general content or maybe after my post as adult content only like female ones... :matte-motes-evil:

Magnus Brody wrote: Mony Lindman wrote: .. does anybody actualy make a living from selling notecards in SL ? If yes, please teach me, it looks like the only "business model" we can take with us in the new world .. Write poetry. I actually do write poetry and do sell them, either illustrated and framed or on a notecard, and yes, they do sell on notecards. You cannot make them no copy though, otherwise no one can read the notecard (something I never really understood about the permissions of notecards). But you can make them no mod and, if you wish so, no trans too. Who ever would have thought eight years ago when I registered for sl that my poetry would be a business to survive best all current plans and changes to come! :smileylol:

Imagin Illyar wrote: The main viewer doesn't have derender? I couldn't live without derender. I use it every day in my work. It's one of those things you really don't want to miss once you know what it can do for you. I really think it would be a smart thing to get all features from current viewer plus all tpv's up on the new platform, and then add some brand new ones to it that will blow us away in an huge aww.

I will honestly admit I only understand half of what you're writing, since I am not a technical person. It actually is a bit of a miracle I play sl, and it took me long time to figure out how to - don't get me started on my first day in sl, I really thought it was not for me and logged out for two weeks before I had the courage to come back and try again. But what I get from your post is that the new viewer should be compatible with all sort of computers and systems, which I think is a wise thing to do, yes. And if I may add, for all non tech people like me: whatever it is they will do with this new viewer, let them please make things easy enough for people like me to figure out how to use it.

Gavin just wrote the sl viewer would not have worn tab and now you say it has no derender. I am so stupified by reading all the features the original viewer does not seem to have: how do they know what they're wearing, and how do they make a lovely snapshot with stuff being in the way and not being able to derender it? I truly hope they fix these things for the new viewer. If anything, we need more features, not less. More than sl plus all tpv's have now. Oh, and now we are at it: I want the ability back to change the Z-axis of the avatar, it is really necessary to change it for some shoes to not float on air or sink into earth.