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Elisheva Sopwith

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Everything posted by Elisheva Sopwith

  1. The thing that is so annoying about sl drama is that it really is entirely avoidable. If you really hate someone so much you can block, mute and derender them. If you really hate a sim so much, you can leave it, and there's probably 99 million other clones of it that you can frequent instead. Heck, if it's all really got that bad, you can log off and go for a walk in the sunshine or take a dance class or read a book. So when someone perpetuates it on and on and on ad infinitum, it's much more irritating than a real life crisis or problem. As for the problem of people partnering on sl and then arguing over boundaries, that one is as old as the pixellated hills, probably older. If you're going to pursue sl relationships, get used to it.
  2. Kylie Jaxxon wrote: I have to admit, I must be getting old...had to google "boo" Don't worry too much, the term hasn't been fashionable since about 1997.
  3. Ok, I'm late to this party and I can't be bothered to read this entire thread, so apologies if I repeat someone else. Anyway, I started reading the OP. Autumn Eleventhauer wrote: I can't find people who seem able to keep SL and RL apart. Ok. Autumn Eleventhauer wrote: In my real life I am happily married, a mother, and a full time student with a part time job and a few cool hobbies...(And before any of you judge me, know that my RL husband is aware of my SL submissive life. We have the agreement that as long as it stays in the computer, and does not carry into RL, we are both ok with it.) The problem is, few of the men I have met are ok with butting the EFF out of my RL. Well, heck. I didn't care much about it but you've just released a shedload more rl information to a bunch of people who didn't ask for it than I'd expect from someone who says never the twain shall meet. Autumn Eleventhauer wrote: They want to be on the phone all the time, harass me for more and more pictures "I haven't had any," said Alice, "so I can't very well have more." So you gave them details about your rl, including your phone number and photograph, and you wonder why they're having trouble separating? Don't get me wrong. They have no right to harass you for more than you wish to give. But on the other hand, you don't seem to be very constant in what you want or are prepared to give either. Oh my God, why can't people stay out of my rl when I give them my rl photo and contact details? I'd also be wary of the "my rl husband/wife/partner knows all about it and is fine with it". I've heard that line from so many people it just ain't funny. And for every single couple/person I got to know a bit more deeply, it was never the mutual happy arrangement they'd initially told me it was. On the sub-topic - I do seem to recall Ishtara once saying that she preferred to be referred to as female although she didn't mind too much if people didn't. Still, it's up to her how she identifies herself, so on the rare occasions I have to refer to her in the third person, I do it this way.
  4. The time to worry is when you want to go to bed with your partner in rl and start looking for poseballs.
  5. 99% of everything is squit for you. And I do mean everything. The clothes in the store, the films at the cinema, the people in the club. Please note, I said squit for you, not necessarily for everyone. Plenty of people look good in the clothes that make me look like a pregnant rhino, plenty of people like The Tree of Life (God knows why) and plenty of people have a fine old time getting off with men who don't turn me on. The key is in finding that 1% that does do it for you, and I'm afraid that means a lot of patience and a lot of time. But heck, if you're prepared to put all that time and effort into it, seems sensible to me to put at least SOME of that investment into finding an old fashioned real life relationship which, though it may be imperfect and tough at times, is at least real, and the risk of getting some very very nasty and unexpected surprise about who they are is...lessened.
  6. Does anyone else want to tell him, or shall I?
  7. Seems to be a new fad. When I started, and up until recently, the average height for a man was over 7 foot. My av, for a long time, was 6 foot and she was one of the shorter ones. Recently, people seem to be moving to more realistic proportions. There are still many people, however, including a lot of "models", who don't appear ever to have seen a real human being. Mutants standing eight feet and ten heads tall, with legs twice the length of their torsos. I remember once looking at an application card for a club that was hiring dancers. It specified that they had to have "realistic skin, hair and genitals". I thought this was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. I wanted to send it to Hugh Hefner and Peter Stringfellow (not that they have much interest in realistic looking women either, but still). I loved the fact that a club anywhere, in any plane of reality, could market its girls by having "realistic skin, hair and genitals". Imagine being ushered onto a red velvet carpet while a scraping footman assures you, "You will be wholly satisfied here tonight, sir. All our girls have realistic skin, hair and genitals." Yah.
  8. "It shows us nothing more or less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts... However, this mirror will give us neither knowledge or truth. Men have wasted away before it, entranced by what they have seen, or been driven mad, not knowing if what it shows is real or even possible...It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that." Albus Dumbledore could just as easily have been talking about Second Life.
  9. Dillon Levenque wrote: You "see it very well" and continue on as if I'd not written a word. Because nothing you said changed anything. Your facile claim that 'lying is wrong' is just another way of saying 'lying to me is wrong when I'm asking for information to which I have no claim', ie 'lying to me is wrong because I am ENTITLED either to an honest answer or a flat refusal to reply at all'. And I repeat: when you ask for information to which you have no right, the person you are asking has a choice. They may refuse to answer, answer honestly, or answer dishonestly. That's their right, because it's their information and you have no right to it. Not even when you run the risk of getting pissed off. If you are looking only for pixel sex and long talks in IM, and that's what you get, everything else you are given is a privilege and not a right.
  10. Dillon Levenque wrote: To Point 1; here are the only relevant sections I could find.: From the TOS: Disclosing Personal Information in Profiles, Forums or within Second Life You may choose to disclose personal information in our online forums, via your Second Life profile, directly to other users in chat or otherwise while using Second Life. Please be aware that such information is public information and you should not expect privacy or confidentiality of this information. Yes. No arguments there. If you wish to tell us the truth about yourself, of course you can. And if you want to tell us that you're an incredibly sexy porn star with a million pounds in the bank, a Lamborghini and Brad Pitt's number in your iPhone, you can tell us that, too. Dillon Levenque wrote: I don't see that as saying anything about how I don't have the right to ask (never have, mind you) Nobody ever said you had no right to ask. But you have no right to the information, and therefore nobody you ask is obliged to give you the correct answer. Dillon Levenque wrote: To Point 3: What you either don't see or won't acknowledge about the majority of the posters you disagree with (include me in that lot, by the way) is that virtually none of them said anything about being entitled. Most have said that LYING about one's RL with intent to gain in something as emotionally involved as an SL relationship can be is wrong. It's wrong in RL, too. I see it very well, but because you lot have nothing but highly emotive "but I want it" arguments in response, you don't grasp the much simpler point I'm making. You are not entitled to this information. (Yes, you can ask. No, you are not entitled.) Since you are not entitled to it, nobody is obliged to be honest with you about it. That's it. You're not entitled to it, so nobody is obliged to be honest with you about it. RL is a completely different kettle of fish, because it's real. If you want rl information about people, look in rl. If you want digital approximations where you, and everyone you meet, can pick and choose what they want to tell you, go right ahead. Just don't start claiming that you have the right to offline information in an online world purely to prevent yourself from hurt. If your experience is digital, you are not entitled to anything beyond that. No, not even if it pisses you off on a personal level. There are indeed predatory people on the internet. Generally, they will try to get your rl information. If we stick to the correct attitude - that nobody is entitled to your information just because they are attached to you - then we're all much safer than if we go around telling people they have a moral obligation to pass information to people who claim to want it because they're in lurve. Edited to correct a word.
  11. JamesAir wrote: Ok actual hypothetical example for you. Oh boy. Challenge me. JamesAir wrote: A person, JOE, is straight in real life and like many people, they play their real life sex in second life. They also project their real life sexual orientation in second life. Once again. JOE has chosen, for whatever reason, not to seek out women in real life. Instead he chooses to pursue a digital approximation of sex with animated women. Furthermore, he signs up to TOS accepting he has no right to any of the rl information about the real people with whom he cybers. He seeks a digital experience with digital women, and that's what he gets. He is entitled to no more. The fact that he likes to think of this as "real" is entirely irrelevant, because he knows it isn't, and that's probably why he's doing it. When his rl wife catches him (he probably has one), he will likely pull the "but it's not real" justification to try to excuse what he does. You have no right to override the TOS and demand other people's rl information just because it gratifies you emotionally. It's no different to the idiots who sign up to the TOS and then think they can void them by posting a disclaimer in their profiles. You have no right to anyone's rl information, and they therefore are under no obligation to provide you with it, and have every right to be untruthful about it if they wish. JOE has not been "manipulated" into "doing something he wouldn't ordinarily do". Ordinarily, he'd have cyber sex with pixel women, and that's what he's got. It's all he's entitled to. Nobody is tricking him into having rl sex with an rl man. And in my experience, men and women don't generally do very well acting as something they're not for a long period of time. If you really do fall madly in love with someone who turns out to be an rl man, you might like to reconsider just how hetero you think you are. What I genuinely can't understand is why you lot seem to think the people prying and demanding rl information on the internet are necessarily the vulnerable ones. I've had many people try to get my rl information, using all these same intellectually dishonest arguments that always boil down to "because I want it for my own personal gratification". These people were predatory, intrusive and highly unreliable. You want to stay safe on the internet? Keep your information to yourself. The person who gives out rl information to spare the feelings of others who have no right to it is far more vulnerable than the person who risks cybering with someone they wouldn't want to have rl sex with. I'm getting very bored of saying the same thing over and over again. In point form: 1) When you enter sl, you agree to TOS in which you accept you have no right to anyone's rl information, nor they to yours. 2) When you enter sl, you are seeking a digital experience and you have no right to anything further. 3) As you are not entitled to anyone's rl information, they are under no obligation to provide it to you. 4) The vulnerable people are more likely to be those giving out their rl information than those selfish idiots who think they have a right to it. Now, James. I'm feeling rather emotionally attached to you after this. I want to know how often you bring your rl partner to orgasm in reality. This is very important information and you have no right to continue this debate if you don't answer. My emotional wellbeing depends on this. Tell me.
  12. Well, in fairness. I understand sl immersiveness and creativity and emotional attachments and so on, but even I choked on my cornflakes when I read about this.
  13. Finrod Ghennyn wrote: Hehehehe, dont get me started about my first home i ever placed down on a 512m² lot. I got about 3 skydive chairs. Hrrrrrrrr And the Surprising Toilet. That's another classic.
  14. A friend once gave me something called Designer Handbag. I attached it and of course it was a device that immediately sent my av flying into the stratosphere. Of course, I went around giving it to everyone else after that. I should really have smelled a rat when something called Designer Handbag is all perms. I've had some more genuinely beautiful and generous gifts (generally clothes and rp tools), but this was definitely the funniest.
  15. Nacy Nightfire wrote: "Nacy? Time to stop feeding the trolls. *smiles politely*" Agreed and I'm smiling back with equal respect and politeness. Conversation done from my point of view. It's ok, trolls and good debaters alike know a copout when they see one.
  16. Nacy Nightfire wrote: The more I read your postings Elisheva, the more I'm convinced you are battling windmills or "ghosts of SL relationships past". Think whatever you will. But even if that were true, why would it make what I'm saying wrong? Nacy Nightfire wrote: Asking for RL information before embarking on a partnership (and what may turn out to be an surprisingly emotional virtual attachment, I might add) does not equate to an expectation or ENTITLEMENT to actually get it. Well then. Why, if I'm in a male av and someone asks me if I'm an rl man because they fancy me, can I not reply "Yes. I'm scratching my balls and burping to Match of the Day even as we speak, sweetcheeks"? You've just admitted nobody is entitled to this rl information, which is exactly what I've been saying all along. Nacy Nightfire wrote: Asking a persons RL sexual orientation (as is the topic in the OP) doesn't disclose much about you I don't quite follow this. If I ask you for your sexual orientation, obviously that doesn't say anything about me. But it's irrelevant. We don't pick and choose the information we are entitled to receive. We are entitled to none. You may wish to give some out - I've given my rl identity to a few people and even met some of them in rl - but you're under no obligation, no matter how attached they are. Nacy Nightfire wrote: You are free to decline, despite what you claim this doesn't reveal anything about you I disagree. I think if I'm in a male av and you ask me if I'm really a man, it incriminates me not to reply. But that's still irrelevant. The point is that since you are not entitled to my rl information, I am not obliged to tell you the truth about it. I'd like to know your annual salary, please, Nacy. I feel rather attached to you at the moment, and if we're going to continue this discussion, this is information I really feel I have a right to know. I don't want you replying any more if you're not going to tell me your annual salary. If you don't like that, you can just log off.
  17. Darrius Gothly wrote: Why on earth would it be so imperative to continue a personally abhorrent and intolerable relationship in a place where "escape" is as simple as "See that X in the upper right corner? Click it." Exactly. So why don't people who think they have a right to your rl information because they are attached to you click that lovely little x, and go seek their rl information in rl? Darrius Gothly wrote: If someone is unhappy or not enjoying their SL experience, they need look no further than their own mirror to find both the cause and the fix. Exactly. But you lot are insisting that the person who ought to do the leaving is the person being asked to relinquish something that is their perfect right to keep. Darrius Gothly wrote: As Dana has tried to point out (but for some reason Elisheva keeps dodging) .. it's about one's own expectations and limits. We really do have the tools here to control our own experiences. Your own "expectations" do not override someone else's right to keep their rl in rl. It's just another way of saying you have a sense of entitlement to someone else's offline life, purely because you want it. We all agreed to the TOS when we signed up, and we all agreed that people's rl remains private if they want it to. You may like to override that when your personal feelings are in the way, but you didn't sign up to that right, and nor did anyone else. People who want rl information do indeed have the facility to find out such data. It's called rl. That lovely X button you mentioned is your key to it. On the internet, you have no right to anyone's personal data.
  18. Dana Hickman wrote: Elisheva Sopwith wrote: Dana Hickman wrote: Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment. So now you also know exactly what's going on in the minds of scores of people you've never met, and, conveniently, it all falls in line with your wishes. Is there anything you CAN'T do? Shall I point out how poor of a dodge attempt that was? Please do. I can't for the life of me see how you can know the intimate workings of the minds of countless people you've never met and whose personal lives and contexts are completely unknown to you. Enlighten me.
  19. Dana Hickman wrote: If you getting implicated by not answering then you're getting asked by the wrong kind of person, genius! omg... So if I'm in a male av, and someone asks me if I'm an rl man, and I decline to answer, they won't draw any conclusions from that? Dana Hickman wrote: Your quote of me wasn't any sort of reply at all.. In there it says nothing about victims or expectations or getting pissed off when RL info is refused. Of course it was. It was a whiny moan from you with a lot of highly emotive and utterly worthless rubbish about "being played like a used violin", clearly implying that such people are passive victims. They're not. They're people who went into a virtual world knowing the risks and knowing they had no real right to personal data, and didn't get exactly what they wanted in real life.Dana Hickman wrote:your ruined roleplay means nothing when something tangible is on the line, and saying it's about the RL info that you're not forced to divulge is just a cover. The whole point is that this is not a tangible world, so if you want tangible information, this is not where you should look. You have NO RIGHT to people's rl information for your own emotional protection. Dana Hickman wrote: And what's with this teenager fetish? I answered that like a friggin hour ago! Are you that knee-jerk that you can't be bothered to read a whole reply before retort? I've just had another look through, and I don't see any response to it. Kindly link me to it, or repeat. What should I tell her?
  20. Dana Hickman wrote: Id like to know... how much emotional investment do you think someone has in a relationship when they've been lying though their teeth with a fake personna, fake RL gender, fake RL history, and fake RL stories? The answer is telling because there can be no "emotional blackmail" when real emotions aren't on the line. No, I'd pretty much guarantee that if someone goes to those lengths to continue playing a lying game with someone that there isn't much attachment there. I'd also pretty much guarantee that if there's any feelings at all, they're either for their precious "character", or the situation they lied that character into... not the other person. Just like you say to look to RL for RL stuff, I'd have to say back that these kind of users need to look to RP sims for their precious fantasy fulfillment. So now you also know exactly what's going on in the minds of scores of people you've never met, and, conveniently, it all falls in line with your wishes. Is there anything you CAN'T do? So what should I tell the teenager?
  21. Dana Hickman wrote: Elisheva Sopwith wrote: You are not a passive victim of fate if you log into a virtual environment and then expect everyone to give up their rl information to you just because you think you have a right not to be pissed off. I never suggested anything of the sort. "To help ensure the chances of being lied to and played like a used violin are as low as can be reasonably expected under such conditions? Absolutely! No question about it. Just because YOU don't like the price to continue riding that ride doesn't mean that what they ask is so universally unacceptable to everyone. It matters not if you don't agree with the asking." - Dana Hickman, about 20 minutes or so ago. Dana Hickman wrote: So you still maintain that it's cool to lie and make up stuff instead of just denying the request for whatever reason? I certainly do. As I've said numerous times, nobody has the right to this information, and it is often impossible to refuse the request without implicating oneself, so saying anything you like about it is absolutely fine and dandy. LL agrees with me. So what should I tell the teenager?
  22. Dana Hickman wrote: To help ensure the chances of being lied to and played like a used violin are as low as can be reasonably expected If you don't want to risk being lied to about gender, you look in rl. You are not a passive victim of fate if you log into a virtual environment and then expect everyone to give up their rl information to you just because you think you have a right not to be pissed off. Dana Hickman wrote: it's still within their rights to ask. And it's still within my rights to say anything I like about it to protect my privacy. It's not against the TOS to lie about your rl, but it is against them to share rl information about people without their consent. That is because LL understand that our rl privacy and safety is paramount, and your "right" to demand real information in a digital sphere is not. So what should I tell the teenager?
  23. Dana Hickman wrote: You're correct, they don't have a right to someone elses info, that's just stoopid... but they do have a right to ask for it for their own security. Their own security??? Is this some kind of joke? You're telling me people should succumb to emotional blackmail and pass out their real life information to people on the internet in the name of security???
  24. Dana Hickman wrote: Not really, more like if you enter into a SL relationship with someone who wants to know your RL details, you completely lose your right to continue roleplaying your little fantasy character at their emotional expense! Of course you don't. Your right to rl privacy is much, much more important than their emotions and the fact they've chosen to use a digital dating agency designed for digital experiences. There's a reason the TOS don't extend to having to sacrifice your privacy to someone with no sense of personal responsibility and a horrible sense of entitlement to your offline life. Emotional blackmail is not a justification. Dana Hickman wrote: You're RL info is still safe Your real life gender IS your rl info. Besides, as I've said before, if I can't hide my gender, what can I hide? Exactly how much are people entitled to get from me on the grounds of emotional blackmail? Where are these lines drawn? Dana Hickman wrote: You either see the bet, or you fold... boo hooo IMO. Quite. The bet is that, if you go into a virtual world and seek out partners there, presumably while hiding your own rl details, likelihood is that others will be exercising the same rights as you. You have NO RIGHT to the rl information of people you meet online, just as they have no right to yours. You still haven't told me what I should say to the teenager I'm meeting a bit later.
  25. Dana Hickman wrote: ntolerant disagreement of perspective This is not a complicated "perspective" issue about relative morality. Nobody is failing to understand that some people invest more in sl than others do. Please give us a little credit. This is all about the very very simple principle that when you are on the internet, nobody has the right to claim your rl information. Mags and Nacy believe that if I enter an sl relationship with someone who wants to know my rl details, I lose the right to withhold these details. Never mind that it's not against any of the TOS to pretend you're an rl man if you're not. Never mind the fact that I might be a very young or very vulnerable person being pressured to give up personal information by someone who claims they'll be mentally scarred forever if I'm dishonest with them. Never mind that a digital experience is the only experience we have a right to claim on here. I'm going to be talking to a 19-year-old later about the internet (rather young for her years, if I'm honest). Do you think I should tell her that, if she meets someone online and she likes them and wants to enter an internet relationship with them, she should feel obliged to pass up any rl information? On the grounds that otherwise she's being sociopathic, or manipulative, or indefensibly dishonest? Or do you think I should tell her, "Never, ever, ever feel pressured to tell anyone on the internet anything at all about yourself, under any circumstances"?
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