spinster Voom

There are a few comments about the plans for 13-15 y/o's near the top of the thread. My impression is that for the adults at least, it's a good solution, although I appreciate it's a bit limiting for you only to have access to edu sims. Better than having your account put on hold altogether though, I suppose. It would be good if the same safeguards could be put in place for all the teens, but that would be the same as the Teen Grid is now. It's the plans for the 16-17 y/o's which are causing all the concern and we still haven't had any further details about how it's going to work. Time is running out.

It appears my previous post has gone ... no idea why, I haven't had any notification so I shall assume it's just a glitch and repost. Anyway, the gist of my post was that the vast majority of SL and of Mainland is Mature - people like that rating. When Adult content rules were brought in, Mature landowners were repeatedly assured that they could still have sexual content in private on their land. It would make far more sense to make the current mainland all Mature and create a small PG continent than it would to make the whole of the current mainland PG. Stats on the number of regions of different maturity ratings can be found here: http://gridsurvey.com/index.php A map of the distribution of different maturity ratings can be found here: http://lab.kathar.in/heatmap/ My jira for a PG continent is here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6241 ... and includes a few quotes from Blondin Linden, assuring landowners that private sexual content is fine on Mature.

Hi tina, please look very carefully at what LL are offering your daughter before you allow her access to it. We all know that teens have been sneaking onto the main grid for a long time now, but up until now it has been in their interests to pretend to be older so they are not reported. This has given them some protection from the few rotten apples because they haven't been visible. Now, everybody will know that there are teens on PG. We don't yet know whether their accounts will be marked in some way or whether there will be any restrictions on IMs or inventory transfers. There will be people who try to take advantage of that - not many, most people are perfectly decent - but there will be a few. Maybe your own daughter is streetwise and confident and can look after herself online but perhaps one or two of her friends are the quiet ones - please ask her to keep an eye out for her friends - there are a few horrible people in SL and they will try to take advantage of this situation if they can. I can see the attractions for a parent. My son has shown interest in the teen grid on and off over the years - we never successfully made him an account because we're outside the US and it's always been broken one way or another but if it could be done safely and without breaking many of the things that make SL unique, I'd love to spend time with him and his friends here. Sadly, the current setup is not adequate to ensure the safety of teens or adults. We need some more details. We've been waiting over 6 weeks now and the teens are arriving on or before 31 Dec. That doesn't give us long. There will be changes that affect everybody but we don't know what they are yet. Way back on the first thread about the merge, I asked: @Terrence: - what will happen to the PG/Mature mainland? - will any changes be made to the current content rating guidelines? In particular, will non-advertised/private adult content still be allowed on Mature? - what will be done about adult content in profiles, picks and groups? - will unverified accounts still be allowed? - will the minors be easy to identify? If so, what measures will there be to protect them from unwanted attention? If not, what measures will there be to protect adults from unwanted attention? - will there be any technical restrictions or changes to the ToS/CS re- content creation, inventory transfer or sales? It would be good if you could at least acknowledge that these problems exist instead of just repeating that teens will only have access to PG/G. Please speak not just to teens, parents and educators but to the whole range of Second Life residents. We all have a stake in this. ... and the only answer we have had is ... Hi Spinster, there are a number of these (and other) changes that are currently underway, or will be underway over the coming four months and beyond. There has not been much detail on specific aspects of the plan up to this point, but we will be reaching out to the community to discuss these changes in more detail in the near future. We will also be reaching out to different areas of the community to gather feedback as we create our roadmap going forward. ... so who knows what they have planned ... I'm tiering down to basic this month. I've been hearing "sky-is-falling" stories since early 2007 but with the grid merge and the edu/non-profit price-hike and the exodus of people and content this will cause, it feels like the end-days. Anyway, sorry, I have rambled a lot from replying to a fellow mum.

Thing is, mainland can't change. Unlike Estate, even if a landowner owns a whole sim of mainland, they can't change the rating.

Yes, it's very obvious that you don't care about anybody except yourself. Meanwhile, some of us are trying to see the bigger picture and think of ways to make this work for everybody - because it WILL happen. Anyway, if I wanted a nasty sticky bunfight I'd go to the GD forum. I think this issue is more important than that so I'll be skipping past your unpleasant posts - they just make me angry and don't add much to the debate, IMHO.

First of all let me congratulate you on being the first self-admitted 'escort' I've ever met with an above room-temp IQ, and an apparent moral compass, even if it is a little skewed in my opinion. But that's not what we need to be discussing. The fact is, you're absolutely right. Those defending the teen merge seem to forget just how bloody -out there- things can get...sometimes even literally. Now, I'm not into SL sex, to me it's even more pathetic than calling a 1-900 number and talking to "trixie" for 9.95 a minute but hey, to each their own. See, there you go again. So far you have insulted teens, parents, educators and now escorts. It's a shame, because the rest of your post contains some valid points.

Thanks Irene. Wow, that's more jumbled than I thought!

Yay! I've been on various SL forums and blogs for 3 years and this is the first time somebody has called me an alt. I feel like I truly belong now! I stuck up for Ishy because I have seen her post on the forums for a long time now and have been very impressed with her maturity and responsible attitude. I don't know her except for her forum posts and I doubt she knows who I am. She came on here to express her opinions as a teen while at the same time acknowledging the very reasonable concerns of the adults and you and another poster were extremely rude to her. I'm not surprised she's gone but I am saddened - we haven't heard enough from the teens on this issue, or the PG landowners, come to that. You were thoroughly nasty to a 15 y/o girl who did nothing to deserve it. I hope you feel really big now.

Yes 80%? I do not have the facts and figures in front of me, is that a guess-timate? Just for fun lets take your figure of 80% and run with it. http://gridsurvey.com/index.php <<< bookmark this, it's a really useful site. Actually, it appears I exaggerated a little - I make it about 72%, or if we exclude Zindra (which we can, because that's already segregated) it's about 76%. In any case, it's the mainstream. If anybody knows of a source of maps showing the distribution of PG and Mature regions on Mainland I'd be very interested. I know the older continents are very jumbled, the newer ones are not so bad, although there's one in the far north-east that appears to be a ring of PG beaches with a Mature interior. That's going to be really weird for everybody. Sure make a pg continent, have the teens go there; keep my rules for it. I'd have to trawl back up to see your rules. I do think a PG continent is the logical starting point if this is ever going to work though ... Grid Merge: When Minors arrive on the Main Grid, we NEED a PG/General continent. How about we take this to the limits since LL likes to tie our hands. "All in favor of making the entire grid; "Mature and Adult" say "I". Then announce that all kids are allowed into SL any age but only on PG sims. Works for me. Ha! Not sure what the current PG land owners would think of that (nearly 15% of the grid, BTW, compared with 7% Adult).

(not a post to Irene Muni, general reply to topic) The solution is a simple one. I understand the need of LL to generate or keep any income, from Teens and pre-teens. Make the mainland all pg. Unverified accounts all must get verified. They cannot upload, anything. They cannot buy anything. They cannot sell anything. They do not have access to notecards. They do not have groups or the ability to IM. They cannot teleport off the mainland. They can build in world but their inventory is very limited, say to 100 items. No one over 18 is allowed on the mainland. LL moved ppl to Zindra, they can do it again. ----- I'm guessing you're not from Mainland Approximately 80% of it is Mature and is largely owned by people who were repeatedly assured they wouldn't need to move to Adult in order to enjoy private relationships in their own homes. That's why they didn't qualify for a free land swap. It would make much more sense to create a PG continent and turn the existing mainland to 100% mature. Current PG landowners wouldn't have to do anything different if they didn't want to move - they can just as easily not-have-sex in their homes on Mature as they can on PG.

Can we just have Ishy and get rid of you instead? I agree with you that this merge is a bad idea but you seem to be going out of your way to insult people. Ishy is one of the people who has the most to lose. She's not yet 16 so if she wants to stay in SL she has to sign up with one of the educators (if there are any left after the price hike) and can only visit their sims. In spite of this, she has the maturity to consider the concerns of the adults as well. You could learn a bit from her. Ishy, just in case you are still reading, I wish you the very best of luck, whether you join an educational group in SL or whether you move on to an OpenSim grid. I'm sure you'll be an asset to the Main Grid when you get here.

I have challenged any of these so-called educators, any Linden or that manner anyone who will come on here and explain to everyone how teens to main grid will be an "enriching experience" or be of any benefit at all. These posts are overwhelmingly anti-teen.......so cmon you pro teen pervs...prove us all wrong!!!!!! So far....no takers. They seem to be a lot less cynical and nasty-minded than a couple of the adults posting on this blog. My experience of teens (and I have two myself and frequently my house is full of their friends) is that while they can be a bit boisterous and irritating, they can also be a lot of fun to have around because their minds are still open - they haven't been told their ideas are stupid quite as many times as us older people. They're still capable of being idealistic about life - I think we need a bit more of that. They don't automatically think the worst of everybody. I think having teens around could be a bunch of fun, if it could be done safely (in terms of actual child safety, the law and PR) and without breaking everything in an attempt to make it all "safe". Sadly, this is clearly being done as a cost-cutting measure. I am concerned that LL will be looking for the cheapest way to do this - not the safest, not the least disruptive, not the best way - the cheapest. I'm waiting to see how badly LL are going to break SL and whether it's still something I want to be associated with.

Why don't you enlighten us with all the real benefits that teens will bring. Uhhhhhh let's see......#1 would be ....uhhhhhhhhhhhhh duhhhhhhhhhhhhh can't remember. We can stop there. There aren't any real benefits. Teens belong with teens and adults with adults. Put this up for vote and you'll lose bigtime! Here you go ... https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-4497 It's a bit pointless voting for it except as a protest because LL have already said the merge is happening, so it IS going to happen ... so, while you're there, why not take a few minutes to look at the related jiras - Grid Merge: When Minors arrive on the Main Grid, we NEED a PG/General continent. Add new full auto-mute capability between Adults and Children Modify SERVER code on M and A sims so no textures or prim data get sent to GENERAL users Add Visible Adult and Child Identification Tag We haven't heard any details yet so it's just possible that LL are still receptive to ideas.

Why on earth did you bother putting all that effort into sorting a solution for migrating TG educators, just to pull the rug from under them a week later? It's obvious that LL are cutting costs to the bone - firing 1/3 of the workforce, getting rid of the Teen Grid and Avatars United, no more subsidised sims for non-profits and educators, cutting support to barely-there levels ... I can't decide whether LL are hanging on by their fingertips, are polishing up their profitability before they sell or are simply incompetent. ... Customer Support will be available to answer any questions that you may have about these changes.

Hi Ayesha, We are taking issues related to safety and security (for both the 16 and 17 year olds, as well as the adults) around this move very seriously. As I stated in a couple previous posts, many of the issues raised by Residents have been/are being taken into account by us and I will be letting everyone know specifics on this matter. I appreciated everyone's patience until we release more detail - specific timing of this release is still TBD. Please hurry up and give us more details. We've been waiting for over 6 weeks now. While no specific date has been set, you have said this will be happening on Dec 31 at the latest. We really don't have much time to make the decisions we need to make and prepare for this huge change.

I don't have any interest in some kid whining on youtube, so I'm not even going to bother looking at that video. Whereas I am always pleased to see some opinions from the teens on this. They're losing out at least as much as the adults. Fact is, Kids don't belong in SL, never have and without some very major changes never will. Not only that, they're not wanted, so lets not merge the grids...lets just close down the teen grid without any merge...and focus on more important things than a few penny-pinching wanna-be teachers trying to nose in to the grid when they can run an OS sim on their own servers. The educators didn't want this. Did you see Philip's SLCC speech and the distress shown by that educator when the merge was first announced? The plans for the 13-15 y/o students are not bad - they won't affect the adults at all. It's the current plans for 16-17 y/o's that are likely to mess everything up and those plans have nothing to do with the educators. Anyway, it looks like you're getting your wish - educators are leaving in droves having just been cr*pped on a second time. People need to stop trying to force their kids into adult areas thereby forcing the adults to change their behavior. Some places are appropriate for kids, some aren't. SL is one of the ones that isn't. Any, and yes, I mean -ANY- parent that lets their kids on SL, even the teen grid, should be sterilized and their children taken away from them. Obviously a foster home would be better for them. Charming. I have been on SL long enough to know that it's not somewhere I'd want my kids to be (mostly because so many people use it as a dating/cybering site) but that isn't the case for parents checking it out for the first time. LL says it's safe and on first inspection it could easily appear so. The parents of the teens who are migrating have already decided that LL are trustworthy or their kids wouldn't be on the TG. If they're responsible, they'll take a little time looking round the PG areas to which their teen now has access and the chances are they'll decide it all looks very innocent, because it does look very innocent. SL looks really cute - little barbies and kens and furry people and dear little houses and gardens under a pretty sky - it's cartoons, it's eye candy! Then they see their youngster can create content here - learn the basic rudiments of 3D modelling, scripting, texturing ... and compared to how their child could be wasting their online time, it looks pretty good! So what are they going to think the next time they look over their kid's shoulder and see their teen being propositioned by one of those nudie w*nky men you get at welcome areas, or looking at somebody's profile full of RL pr0n, or sorting through an inventory full of BDSM toys, or ... well, you get the idea. It could happen the first time they rez inworld or a couple of months down the line. They are going to complain and they'll have every right to do so because LL are blatantly misrepresenting their product. I agree with you that the Main Grid is not suitable for minors but you seem to be directing your rage at a lot of undeserving targets. It's LL who are merging the grids, not the teens, not the educators, not the parents.

No, General is the new name for PG. They changed the names when Viewer 2 came out. PG is now called General and Mature is called Moderate. The 16-17 year-olds will have access to all the current PG sims on the Main Grid, including those that are scattered like raisins through the mostly Mature mainland.

Age of consent is not relevant here because nobody actually has sex in Second Life - it's all pixels and typing and stuff You could think of it as collaborative production and distribution of amateur pornography though. The relevant age is the Age of Majority. Wiki page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_majority As you will see from that page, the Age of Majority is 18 or older in all but a handful of countries. LL specifically refer to the Age of Majority in the ToS: 2.1 Age Requirements for Second Life. By accepting this Agreement in connection with an Account (other than for Teen Second Life), you represent that you are at least 18 years of age, or the legal age of majority where you reside if that jurisdiction has an older age of majority, and you have the legal authority to enter into this Agreement. That's what is about to change and legally, it's a big change. LL are saying that their product is suitable for minors and it isn't. I don't think LL have given enough thought to the potential legal problems of abandoning the Age of Majority as the official age for the MG. Philip's speech at SLCC was full of "we think the grid can be made safe for 16 and 17 y/o's" ... "we believe the current safeguards are adequate" ... I suspect he has his fingers crossed and is wishing very hard.

Terrence, why leave comments open on your blog post if you can't be bothered to participate in the conversation?

I have spelled out to LL in psuedocode exactly how the sim software can be modded ever so slightly so that teens cannot see ANYTHING on M or A sims. It also has the advantage that it prevents teens from camming into M stores and making purchases that they aren't supposed to be able to make. Yes, it makes entire M sims vanish from the teens view. But since they aren't supposed to be doing anything in M to begin with (or be able to walk on the roads in M sims) it should be a very small price to pay. While this would be safer, I disagree that it would be a very small price to pay. There are many reasons why people love SL. For me, one of the biggest draws is the sense of SL as a virtual place with its own history and geography ... roads, rivers and seas to explore, historical sims with turbulent pasts and ancient landmarks (real landmarks like mountains and beanstalks, not the things in your inventory) ... anyway, I think this sense of place is one of the very few things Mainland has going for it. Already, LL are planning to offer the teens a badly broken Mainland experience. They'll see roads and rivers going off into the distance but they won't be able to explore. They'll be forever bumping into sim boundaries they can't cross. They'll have to teleport everywhere. They'll probably face even further restrictions from landowners - I've seen age-verified-only banlines on more than one PG sim already. They won't be able to do combat RP which, I understand, is hugely popular on the TG, they won't be allowed to swear (good luck with that! ) and they won't be able to have a Linden Home because they're all on Mature. If, in addition to these restrictions, Mature regions didn't render at all, large parts of the Mainland would look like swiss cheese to them. Adults would suddenly materialise at the sim borders, we'd be able to see and hear the teens but they wouldn't be able to see and hear us, adults and teens on PG would be seeing very different things. It wouldn't be a place anymore - it would be broken and weird. I don't think it's a very small price to pay because I think it breaks Second Life on a very deep level. I realise that loving mainland is a minority sport these days but the worst affected places will be the oldest continents - the historical heartland of the grid, where it all began. I dunno, perhaps I'm the only one left who cares about this stuff in which case they might as well switch off mainland altogether and just have Estate. Since a true seperation of the content into proper continents is unrealistic (though ideal) I don't think this is all that unrealistic. I think it's not only do-able, but the most sensible option. I have a jira for a PG continent here: https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-6241 ... and I added some comments relevant to this discussion further down the page ... The easiest thing would be to change all the PG mainland sims to Mature and use the old TG sims to make a new PG continent. The result would be more Mature mainland in an already depressed market but I suspect it might regain a bit of value once it was separated out from PG. The rules for Mature have been "nudge nudge, wink wink" since Zindra and it's no surprise that people have lost confidence in it. Meanwhile, Linden Homes, which are I believe on completely separate Mature continents, seem to be thriving. It would cause a problem for the current PG Mainland owners but I don't think it would be a huge problem. They've been living cheek-by-jowl with Mature regions for years. Would it really make that much of a difference if their land was re-classified as Mature? They wouldn't have to do anything different at all. If some of them want to move, what the hell, offer them a landswap (pauses to savour the sound of a thousand *facepalm*s) ... it wouldn't be the panicked stampede that was Zindra because nobody would have to change anything if they didn't want to move. I have since learnt that some business owners choose PG because search is borked and it's the only way to get their business to show up on default search settings. I think that's an argument for mending search, not for breaking mainland, but if search is going to take a while to be fixed then these businesses should have first dibs in any land swap.

This sounds safe enough. Presumably the educators take on the responsibility for ensuring a safe and pr0n-free environment for the youngsters in their charge, so it's up to them to do the necessary background checks on anybody they want to visit their sims. I have no doubt that educators take their legal responsibilities very seriously so if they are happy with this set-up then it's probably fine. They're not really joining the Main Grid though, are they? They won't be able to leave their school/college sims, they won't have search, they'll only have access to content and people that have been pre-approved by their educators (except for what they make themselves ) ... I presume (I hope!) they'll also be hidden in search from the rest of us ... it's starting to sound a lot like the teen grid as it is now, just with a shift in the legal responsibility from LL to the educators. I don't know how it works now on the TG - are there many educational sims on the TG that don't allow their students access to the rest of the TG? If these are teens who are used to having access to the whole mixed TG experience, are they not likely to lose interest when they suddenly only have access to their college sims? No shopping, no combat, no dancing? I suppose the educators will be working hard to provide some decent leisure facilities on their estates. It would be good if the students could visit each others' colleges too. However ... There is no legal difference between a 13-15 year-old minor and a 16-17 year-old minor when it comes to the supply of "Adult" materials. How are you going to allow 16-17 year-olds onto the grid without either breaking the law or breaking Second Life? Way back in the other thread I asked you these questions ... - what will happen to the PG/Mature mainland? - will any changes be made to the current content rating guidelines? In particular, will non-advertised/private adult content still be allowed on Mature? - what will be done about adult content in profiles, picks and groups? - will unverified accounts still be allowed? - will the minors be easy to identify? If so, what measures will there be to protect them from unwanted attention? If not, what measures will there be to protect adults from unwanted attention? - will there be any technical restrictions or changes to the ToS/CS re- content creation, inventory transfer or sales? It's been a long time and we still have no further details. These are things that affect everybody, whatever they think about teens on the MG in theory. You need to be talking to the ordinary, mainstream Mature and PG landowners, especially those who live on mainland. We're your bread and butter. I did a jira: Grid Merge: When Minors arrive on the Main Grid, we NEED a PG/General continent. Here's the gist of it ... The problems: Mainland, especially the older continents, is a patchwork of General (PG) and Moderate (Mature) regions. Currently, Moderate land owners are allowed to have private, non-advertised sexual content on their land ... While these guidelines have always been very ambiguous, we were repeatedly assured by LL at the time of the Zindra migration that private and non-advertised sexual content was Mature and not Adult ... There is (currently) nothing to stop a minor from standing on a General sim and accessing adult content by camming through the walls on a neighbouring Moderate parcel. There is (currently) nothing to stop a minor from standing on a General sim and buying adult content from an adjacent Moderate parcel. These problems will affect not only Moderate regions which are adjacent to General, but all Moderate regions within draw distance of a General sim. The mainstream, Moderate Second Life experience is severely threatened by the current plans. Either Moderate landowners are about to have their land downgraded to General or technical solutions will have to be brought in that will completely break the mainland experience, at least for the minors. Neither of these options is acceptable and neither is it acceptable to leave things as they are because providing pornographic material to minors is illegal in most of the world. LL are about to offer the minors a severely broken mainland ... roads they can't travel, seas they can't sail. Any technical restrictions will break things even worse. Will the roads just stop at the sim border? Perhaps Moderate regions won't render at all and mainland will be a patchwork of square sea-filled holes with messy edges. In addition, there may be many General land owners who do not want minors on their land. When the teens arrive, they are likely to find a lot of banlines, even on the General regions they are allowed to access. From what I gather, combat RP is very popular on the Teen Grid but as this is not allowed on General land on the main grid, the minors will no longer be able to enjoy this activity. The solution: Create a separate PG continent and limit the minors to only that continent as well as Estate land that is suitable for minors (this should be the estate owners decision). Give them some roads and waterways they can use. Combat RP could be allowed on this continent too. Allow only verified adult accounts access to the new continent. EDITED TO ADD: Some Linden Homes on the PG continent would be good too. As far as I know, they are currently all on Mature/Moderate regions. EDITED TO CLARIFY: by "verified adult accounts" I mean those that have payment info on file or who are age-verified - just keep out the unverified, disposable alts. I do not mean only allow adults who have been ultra-background-checked like they are on the Teen Grid today. Keep the current mainland as it is, perhaps changing some of the current General regions to Moderate (not all of them - there are valid reasons for wanting General but no minors). There would then be no need to either break the mainland or to downgrade Moderate land to something that is worthless to the majority of Moderate land owners. I am aware that when the Adult Content changes were brought in, the idea of a PG continent gathered a lot of resident support but wasn't implemented because it didn't fit in with LL's plans at the time. Things have changed and with minors on the grid, I would ask LL to reconsider this option for the safety of all of us. PS Terrence, please could you start a forum thread for the comments. The last blog post got too long to load in the end.

Thanks for listening - this is very encouraging Colour-coding seems (to me) the most obvious solution to these problems ... so obvious I'm not sure why you are still just "considering" it. I hope LL are listening this attentively to people's very valid concerns about teens arriving on the MG.

Doesn't look like sexual harrassment to me. You tried chatting her up on a sex sim and she wasn't interested, that's all. It says on her blog that she's an escort ... I wonder how she copes with that? It must be distressing to know somebody is saying this sort of stuff about you on a blog, but if it was me, I think I'd try to just ignore it. There's no sense in giving her blog any more publicity. What an oddly small head she has.