Gabs Voom

Ok .. thanks for the latest replies. I truly appreciate all the replies. I think we are close to the truth now. That makes us happy and sad, it's a bittersweet feeling. What you are saying can make sense. yes. this is probably the most likely scenario. Linden is probably right, but handling the issue poorly. We never intented to infringe a trademark, but we did. We can't argue with that. Imagine if in the first place, we had received this email from Linden : Instead of a general, vague and canned reply. Things would have been completly different. And maybe some of you could be thinking that this is very obvious, but trust me. It was not for us at all. Eventually, yes we would have probably used other keywords. But let me add another possible scenario here. Imagine you use the word "Belle" for an item unrelated to a Disney product. However, it is flagged for infrindging the Disney trademark. Would it be so obvious then? specially if you don't watch Disney Movies ... however, if you receive a warning from Linden saying .. Disney(Belle) ... problem solved, either you appeal to Linden saying it's a common word not related to Disney or you just move on and change the name of the product. No one gets hurt. Linden has done a terrible and sloppy job here and the result is one guy banned. If Linden would have provided specific and acurate inforamtion in the 1st place, this would have never happened. Nobody is perfect and we assume our part of responsability, but not all of it.

Yes, Chaplin got that suggestion offline from a user 1 hour before being banned and He could add me as manager in the last minute from his phone (he was at his regular job). Saved by the 🔔 This morning (2 hours ago) I have figured out how to unlist all the items. At least, now that I have the bikes out, he won't receive more warnings and he is safe.

You are behaving like a troll (this is not an attack, just trying to be constructive about your attack against me) I hope you are not trying to turn this topic into a drama to give an excuse to have the topic closed or deleted. (actually Linden does not need any excuse to do it whatsoever .. I know ) If you wanted to trigger me with a grain of arrogance, sorry but no .. On the contrary of what you insinuate, all I wanted was to get feedback about this issue. A few forum users have been helpful and I thank them. They have been pointing this and this from the items. I really appreciate it, all of you. In fact we are out of the vehicle business so this is not a hidden promotion either. I admit I have been proactive, but only because I wanted to help Chaplin. Yeah, maybe I overreacted a little bit. Finally the answer I needed came from real life, from another builder that told us it could be anything. AND YES .. it is obviously something we have done wrong .... not Linden ... I'm NOT BLAMING LINDEN The problem with Linden is that they send you messages not specific enough about the issue. They assume you are being guilty and you know what you are doing wrong and what you are guilty of. In our case, we didn't know. Damm, if they had sent us the answer hidden in a riddle, we would have been easier. We have been running an honest business since 2007 and we never had problems like this in the past. It happens, we have seen it before. It's a sad misunderstanding where we lose and there is nothing we can do. I accept it. But now that you say this, if This topic is not closed, it could be used to help other merchants in the future to know that there is the possibility that they make a mistake on the marketplace that they are not aware of. It is possible that a merchant is convinced of doing things legally but making the same mistake than us. This topic would help them to understand. These are my conclusions and my advice for other merchants. Linden can say you are spamming with a trademark that does not appear in your products. Yes, you can have your items removed for using (or not) part of a trademark No, linden will not be specific about the issue and they will send you a general guideline with the error. It's your job to guess what they are saying and find the solution. Yes, Linden can remove your items first (without a chance of fixing them), and a few hours later send you an email ( or not ) banning you and accusing you of things you have or haven't done. If you get the first warning, even if you are convinced of not infringing any trademark or brand, take your time to rethink your business. (and you'd better get the first warning, not like us that we didn't get it) About these issues, Linden will not cave nor you will not convince them that they are behaving randomly and illogically. (unless you have a good lawyer) and even if you are a premium user. Trying to contact Linden to ask them to double verify your items is a waste of time. They won't do it. Always expect a canned reply. Thank you, it's time for me to put and end to this. Gabs OUT.

We appealed to Linden using the IP email and this is the reply we recieved: Of course this is a standard reply from Linden, Let me insist on this: we haven't used those words as spam or keywords. NEVER We don't know exactly where the problem is, we have some clues but It's obvious we have done something wrong. Linden won't say what it is, won't be more specific than that and this is the most we will get from them. When people used to complain about Linden, I always took these claims with a grain of salt. I used to think people were being dramatic. Now that this has happened to us, I have a different perspective of SL and Lindens. Yesterday Chaplin was contacted by another bike builder and he said he was banned 2 years ago for some stupid reason about Harley Davidson too (I hav read the whatsapp screenshots in italian). I'm not sure I can give details so I will give you a few highlights. He was permabanned for no logical reason he could think after receiving vague claims in threatening emails. He had to hire a lawyer and contact Linden. He got his account reinstated in a month. The bottom line here is that Linden was insisting that he was infringing the trademark and it wasn't after they were contacted by a lawyer, that Linden caved. They took the time to tell the guy: "Delete this xxx, and delete that item from your inventory, and you will be ok". He would have lost all his work in Second Life for years for nothing. All Linden had to do is be more specific about the issue in the first place. For people like Chaplin that can't afford a lawyer, it's a stupid and nonsense hide and seek game. LAST, BUT not the least: We are out of this business (vehicles) on the marketplace and inworld when Chaplin can log in again. Chaplin can't risk a permabanned. We need to rethink our business strategy. We are adults and professionals (not drama queens) We have been in business since 2007. The cautionary tale here is that Linden will give it to you and Linden will also take it from you for non existent spam words. 🙄

My friend never got the 1st warning in the first place. In fact the second email was sent hours after the items were removed. If we discovered the items flagged first is because we are an active store in Second Life. When they ban you, you can't acces your merchant home. So now, even if he wants to fix this, he can't modify the marktplace items. 👈 Insert any ironic joke here Have you checked any item from the marketplace, .. for example this one: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bike-Bobber-Racy-Rider-single-color-Purple-model/15367003 No Harley davidson logo, no harley or harley davidson words on title, description, keywords, features, content reviews, pictures. ZERO and thus 3 items exactly like this one were removed for trademark violation of harley-davidson brand. I insist that email says "HARLEY-DAVIDSON". If Harley-davison has subsidiary brand or mark that we are not aware of, Linden could be more specific and say that we have violated the "XXXX" trademark as part of "Harlely-Davidson" global trademark. As far as we are concerned (except harley style) we have used common words. But again, I insist, some items without the "harley style" words have also been removed. 😅 I know what you are saying, but it's probably trademark infringment and not copyright. Copyright infringement would be the scenario where a company copies or copycats the logos and/or the clothes and/or the clothing style.

I didn't state that. I said that some of the have, but others don't Some have been removed without Harley and others with the word "Harley". For example, Segways don't have the "Harley" word, whatsoever ... and they have also been removed.

Ok, the bad news is that my partner Chaplin Tomorrow has been banned for a 1 week and he has done nothing to deserve this. We have not misused Harley-Davidson brand ... not pretend, not once or two. In fact we have always stayed away from those guys. Now my partner (he is not premium) can not contact linden to know what to do. He can't access the marketplace to remove the bikes ( as a safety measure ) ... His store is online, but he can't access the merchant home. Ridicoulos and propostreus. The idiotic thing is that now Linden could say that he is infrindging another trademark, and he would not be able to log in to the Marketplace to fix his items. This is so unfair. we feel impotent and treated badly by Linden. We have been a serious business in Second life since 2007.

No These are the keywords

So far Linden has not contacted us explaning how we have to do a counter false DMCA. First they removed the items, and a few hours later they sent the email explaining briefly why. They have been completly opaque with this issue. The most hilarious part of this takedown is that they have removed "segways" for infrindging the HARLEY-DAVIDSON trademark. I thought about that, but not all the items have that line "harley style" and the email from Linden clearly says that the trademark in violation is: HARLEY-DAVIDSON However, thank you very much for the appreciation, this could be a reason. But as I said before ... this guy: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/BCR-Abbot/9697799 is not using the word "Harley" and his bike appears on search with Harley.

No ... they have randomly removed one or 2 from each model for the same reason. One savage, one xtreme, 1 road hog, 2 racy riders, 1 comando etc. My assumption 👈 is that someone from Harley Davidson searched the word "Harley", (because Harley Davidson does NOT appear). The marketplace gave them a few items and they filled up a dmca against the first ones. If you scare a few merchants, you draw a line with a few scapegoats. I bet a thousand dollars, none of the IP team department bothers to check the dmca claims. They saw Harley Davidson, they saw a motorcycle and they didn't bother to check more. End of assumption. I would like an explanation from Linden to know more and to avoid possible mistakes in the future, but I know hell will freeze before that ever happens.

Let me show you something really funny !! One bike from a competitor and one bike from my partner, I give you the links: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/BCR-Abbot/9697799 https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bike-Chopper-Road-Hog-Lone-Wolf-Model/6363906 None of these bikes use the word Harley in the description or in the words and probably none of the others. But they do appear in search .... how is that possible ? 😳 It would be bad joke if my partner gets banned for infrindging a trademark that he is not infrinding ...

How am I supposed to know if the MArketplace says our bikes are harleys, but we do not tag them as harleys or call them Harleys or use the word harley ???

Ok. . I got an email from my partner Chaplin Who knows? Maybe someone read this topic and thought it was a good idea to send the email. My partner received the email 1 hour ago 😳 Great because we never received the 1st email to begin with. They say our bikes are branded as HARLEY-DAVIDSON FALSE The search for HARLEY-DAVIDSON Marketplace on the marketplace is this: click here (None of our bikes is there) The search for Harley gives 2 bikes ... but it must be a MArketplace Error because they are not branded as Harley Davidson

The wiki page is a legal page that I read years ago and says nothing that I am not aware of. It's useful to review just in case, but nothing else. Other babygirls items have not been removed plus it's a not a trademark that I'm aware of Agreed. But other items removed do not have Dunlop tyres. I will discuss with Chaplin the case for replacing these tyres.

I'm helping @Chaplin Tomorrow to manage his store: V-Twins Bikes Before you start, I know what copyright is and I know what trademark is. I also know the differences between both. That's why I have been trying to help Chaplin with his bikes and how to brand them so that they do not infrindge anything. Today some of our bikes were removed for Intellectual Porperty Policy and this is the only explanation we have from Linden (completly useless) : http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Intellectual_Property Linden has not given us any specific comment about the violation. Chaplin has not received an email either. So we don't know what we are doing wrong and we don't know what kind of intellectual propierty we have violeted publishing our bikes on the marketplace. Bikes have been removed randomly, some of them, not all of them. For example: Racy Rider Bike Collection (This is only one of the models affected) The FAt Pack and 2 colors have been removed, but not the rest of the colors. 🙄 This can mean 2 things. Either someone flagged those 3 model in particular and forgot to flag the others and the "linden drone" removing items just worked by default. Or the system has "randomly" decided that 3 of these items were in violation of some intellectual propierty. All bikes have basically the same description. I don't know what to think because you can revise the bikes still online and they don't use any trademark that I am aware of. I have googled "racy rider" and it is not a brand and bobber ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobber_(motorcycle) ) at least wikipedia says it is a style not a trademark. A bobber is a style, like a SUV or a sedan or a sports car. https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bikes-Bobber-Racy-Rider-single-color-Red-model/15347403 https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bikes-Bobber-Racy-Rider-single-color-Black-model/15347399 https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bikes-Bobber-Racy-Rider-single-color-Orange-model/15347401 We have also checked the original creator of the bike components and the avatar is selling on the marketplace his/her parts so we are pretty sure we haven't infringed any copyright from the original creator. We have also paid legally for the KCP scripts (actually twice) for the bike to run. I'm also quite sure, we are fine with copyright owners and, of couse, we are not selling ful permissions. As far as I know I would dare saying we haven't infringed not a trademark not the copyright. Please, if someone can spot or understand where the problem might come from, please .. let me know and we will try fix it or address it or have it solved. I have no problem in rebranding or removing the bikes, but I need to have a rational and coherernt explantaion of why this is happening to us. Does someone know how we can contact Linden to know what's going on ? Chaplin and me are not premium so we can't fill up tickets to ask for an explanation. I assume there should be a way to appeal the decision, but this is Linden ... I don't assume. Does someone know if or how we can do that ? Exactly the same problem occurs with another of the bikes models: savage One model of the bikes has been removed, but not the others. These ones are still online so you can check if we are violating any trademark, I'm pretty sure we are not. Silver model: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bike-Cruiser-Savage-Silver-ltd-Model/5890392 Desert Storm model: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bike-Cruiser-SavageDesert-Storm-Model/5890390 Bicolor Model: https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p/V-Twins-Bike-Cruiser-Savage-Bicolor-Model/5890328 We have been in Second Life for more than 11 years and we are feeling very upset and frustrated. The main reason is because Linden refuses to do their part professionally, so now we have to waste our time trying to guess what the hell is going on. Linden should inform in the 1st place, exactly what we have violated ..a brand or a copyright ?? after that we should be informed the name and the problem ( not necessarily in detail, but at least a short explanation) and then a link to contact Linden in case we want to appeal or say something about the violation. Linden only does the lazy part: remove the item and inform with a vague and generic comment that does not provide enough information to know what we have done wrong ( if we have done wrong, which I doubt it in my case). Right now, after 11 years working in SEcond Life, this is the first time I feel defenseless, upset and defeated. If someone can help us or point out what to do or detect what might be causing this problem, I would appreciate it. 😥😅